[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Martin is exactly correct. There are a ton of lines that you need to analyze for the comparison between DP and Grim in terms of turn 1 Empty capabilities, but overall the numbers/options favor Grim Tutor in this specific respect. @Jonathan I like your decklist idea as a whole, and I think 7 tutors is worth exploring. I would try to vary the 3 DP numbers with either 2 DP, 1 Grim or 1 DP, 2 Grim, as multiples of either of those cards can be quite poor. Grim is a good tutor to flood on as long as you are flooding with other tutors that are not other Grims - it adds some nice power/flexibility to your combo.

---

Agreed on all counts.

It's worth pointing out, however, that in spite of the fact that there are four situations in which Grim shines compared with Petition (fast Empty, setting up a combo a turn in advance of firing, finding non-combo cards to pull us out of sticky situations, no spell mastery), it's significantly worse when we're aiming to do an AdN- or PiF-Tendrils combo, both of which are ostensibly what the deck is built to do. I'm not sure deviating from that plan more broadly is a good idea because it's a solid plan against most decks that aren't Eldrazi or Miracles; we might risk losing a lot of matches that used to be in our favor.

Maybe I'm just newbing it up, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to run AdN and Grim together. If we AdN into both Infernal AND either Grim or Petition, we're taking a big hit (bigger on Petition), but bleeding 6—or worse, 9—in order to combo at all is really bad. It's less of a problem if we can break several LEDs with AdN or Grim on the stack, but that doesn't happen all that often (there's a reason Army of the Damned doesn't get played very much in Burning Wish decks).

I feel like the new meta won't necessarily require a whole load of restructuring, but it might make a few builds suffer, at least for the time being. We either need to go really quickly or have answers to at least one (often two) artifacts just to pull off a combo, and I'm not sure we'll have the life or the time to count on AdN or Grim-for-disruption. I also don't think the multi-Tendrils plan is all that useful in this matchup unless we can hope to cast more than one on separate turns, and I don't think that's feasible with 8-12 lockdown artifacts lurking. I think it's pretty imperative to run at least one (I'd prefer more at this point) non-Infernal tutor in the deck because Chalice on 2 shuts us down if we don't.

With all that having been said, I still think Ad Nauseam is worth keeping in the 75, probably the main, and I'm interested in trying Jonathan's build if I get the chance soon. Extra Petitions [EDIT: 3] is a plan I felt too scared to try before, but it might be a good way to get around those damnable Chalices. I didn't play AnT last week, but the week before I managed to pull off two combos in three games against Eldrazi, winning one game and digging to death in the second, even with hate artifacts on the board at the opponent's EoT. In game 2, I hit everything I needed off of AdN after EoT Hurkyl's, and in game 3 Infernal was locked by a Chalice and I didn't have the life to dig enough mana to combo. Petition wasn't live without more mana than I could find, but Grim would've straight killed me even with a better set of AdN flips.

I'd love to hear what people think of using Empty instead of AdN. I like them both, but I feel like they are so different in cost, effect, and situational utility that I'm reluctant to cut AdN preboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Agreed on all counts.

It's worth pointing out, however, that in spite of the fact that there are four situations in which Grim shines compared with Petition (fast Empty, setting up a combo a turn in advance of firing, finding non-combo cards to pull us out of sticky situations, no spell mastery), it's significantly worse when we're aiming to do an AdN- or PiF-Tendrils combo, both of which are ostensibly what the deck is built to do. I'm not sure deviating from that plan more broadly is a good idea because it's a solid plan against most decks that aren't Eldrazi or Miracles; we might risk losing a lot of matches that used to be in our favor.

Maybe I'm just newbing it up, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to run AdN and Grim together. If we AdN into both Infernal AND either Grim or Petition, we're taking a big hit (bigger on Petition), but bleeding 6—or worse, 9—in order to combo at all is really bad. It's less of a problem if we can break several LEDs with AdN or Grim on the stack, but that doesn't happen all that often (there's a reason Army of the Damned doesn't get played very much in Burning Wish decks).

I feel like the new meta won't necessarily require a whole load of restructuring, but it might make a few builds suffer, at least for the time being. We either need to go really quickly or have answers to at least one (often two) artifacts just to pull off a combo, and I'm not sure we'll have the life or the time to count on AdN or Grim-for-disruption. I also don't think the multi-Tendrils plan is all that useful in this matchup unless we can hope to cast more than one on separate turns, and I don't think that's feasible with 8-12 lockdown artifacts lurking. I think it's pretty imperative to run at least one (I'd prefer more at this point) non-Infernal tutor in the deck because Chalice on 2 shuts us down if we don't.

With all that having been said, I still think Ad Nauseam is worth keeping in the 75, probably the main, and I'm interested in trying Jonathan's build if I get the chance soon. Extra Petitions [EDIT: 3] is a plan I felt too scared to try before, but it might be a good way to get around those damnable Chalices. I didn't play AnT last week, but the week before I managed to pull off two combos in three games against Eldrazi, winning one game and digging to death in the second, even with hate artifacts on the board at the opponent's EoT. In game 2, I hit everything I needed off of AdN after EoT Hurkyl's, and in game 3 Infernal was locked by a Chalice and I didn't have the life to dig enough mana to combo. Petition wasn't live without more mana than I could find, but Grim would've straight killed me even with a better set of AdN flips.

I'd love to hear what people think of using Empty instead of AdN. I like them both, but I feel like they are so different in cost, effect, and situational utility that I'm reluctant to cut AdN preboard.

---

Chalice on 5 and your precious DP is worthless as well. :cool:
Jokes aside.

Your points are perfectly fine, however, your view on certain concepts of the different styles of ANT is limited in your depiction. For example, you state that the "multi-Tendrils" approach is not good against specific opponents implying that builds with two ToA are slower than other with 1 and 1 AdN. Well, there might be some truth about it in certain situations but what you're missing is the fact that more Tendrils allow for higher chances to go for a fast PiF-loop because a flashbacked Infernal could then go for LED to play ToA from the grave. That is also true for a second Past in Flames.

I have to support P7 here because he is right about EtW. I used to dislike this card but like it in my setup right now. Consequently, Grim is also better with EtW main and AdN side because as alrady mentioned previously, it searches EtW off one ritual and plastic mana in play.

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-gotten Gains

This is my test list for the current meta. I haven't played a single game with it, but I'm thinking about both sleeving it up today and throwing it together online. Some of the notable changes to my usual list include discard for more diverse targets, 7 tutors, and only 1 PiF main (to make room for 7th tutor). The Ill-gotten Gains SB plan is also there to help with speed against Eldrazi and also comes in against decks like D+T, Elves, Burn, and Storm mirror. I can't say whether or not this is good yet, but I will keep the thread posted with results and changes. Also I finally purchased a new computer that I will be able to begin streaming on starting in a week or two - pumped about that!

I guess I just misunderstood. I thought you were saying Grim should be played over any copies of Petition with Empty and no Ad Nauseam. A split might make more sense than running Petition only. Grim has always been awful in my testing, but I've never been in a situation before where I thought maindeck Empty was the way to go, which it actually might be right now.

Regarding the list above, how do you feel about eight cantrips? I always felt the sweet spot was somewhere between nine and ten. Do the extra tutors make up for them? The thing I like most about the 2 Petition list is how consistently it kills on turn two or three, and cantrips seem to play a big role there.

So many interesting and diverse lists!

I'm most surprised at your discard P7. I'd think you'd want to max out on cabal therapy with empty main. What's your reason for this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Regarding the list above, how do you feel about eight cantrips? I always felt the sweet spot was somewhere between nine and ten. Do the extra tutors make up for them?

---

I am a proponent of more tutors and less cantrips in general because it makes the deck faster while not necessarily sacrificing consistency since the tutors can also act as cantrip-like utility. Sometimes the slower hands play out where your extra tutor is an expensive "cantrip" that gets another mana source - like on turn 2 Infernal is able to get what you need for the turn 3 kill. In my above list it seems you would need to cut one of the tutors and either a land or discard spell to add 2 Preordain, and I'm just not a fan of the cuts. Note that I do cut the 2nd Island when boarding against decks where explosiveness is your number one goal, but against several tier 1 strategies mana development is the most important aspect of the game.

@Scott: The Therapy/Empty synergy is fantastic, but my thinking behind this is that the hate in the meta feels pretty diverse right now, and Therapy is your worst disruption in a diverse format. It's the best card against Delver decks, but I would rather have more consistent discard against Eldrazi, Miracles, and D+T. We'll see how it goes though. My personal "core" discard is 4 Duress, 3 Therapy main and 2 Tseize, 1 Inquisition SB. Whenever I deviate from that one way or another it's because of a big meta shift.

I decided to run a UBw list at a small event today, as it has been ages, and I've always been a chant fan. 7 chants main, 1 Top, 2 DP, 1 EtW. Postboard 3 Serenity (for the MUD player, and Eldrazi), and notably no green (usually little to no miracles). Ran really well (a disproportionate amount of turn-2 protected kills and some good matchups) but ended up losing to Eldrazi in an anticlimatic final.

Round-1: Dredge 2-1 1-0
Chant is pretty sweet here, win quite easily. I do kill myself with AdN in g2, would you guys continue at 3 and/or 2 in this scenario: 0 floating, infi mana and wincons revealed from AdN but no LP. Oppo is on a combo oriented dredge list including some Bloodghasts, and he had been chantwalked on his turn-2 and 3. Do we flip for 7 (LP, and 2nd LED would have turned PiF on) outs or do we pass and let them go absolutely insane with 3-4 lands and multiple drawspells? I flipped and died. Extirpate won g3.

Round-2: Miracles 2-0 2-0
Sigh, I am not prepared for this >.< I ponder, and he opens on a top. I can then chant on my turn-2 (catches a force), followed by some rituals and an LED (with 2 cards behind; a DP and IT), he tanks for a while and forces the LED (putting me on discard+tutor after seeing the white, don't like the play). Several turns later I brainstorm into 2 chants and win through his hand of FoW, Counterspell, U card.
Goblins win game-2.

Round-3: Elves 2-0 3-0
Game-1 I chantwalk a but into a tutor chain (despite multiple Shaman activations).
Game-2 I have a turn-1 (Land,DR,DR,DP->LED,IT + 2nd land/Chain in opener and draw the 3rd DR to make it lethal)

Round-4: Grixis Delver ID 3-0-1
Round-5: Eldrazi ID 3-0-2

Quarterfinal: Infect 2-1
I lose game-1 in the following spot: Opponent has no interaction but he does have lethal next turn. I can go for a PiF with 2 Probes, 2 cantrips and a petal open for DR+IT by flipping top into a land, or I can look at 2 new cards with top and potentially win or end up with the PiF line with a cantrip less. (alternative: silence oppo in upkeep and hope he doesn't respond, he seemed weak enough) I topped (3 lands) and came up short with my probes & cantrips.
I mull to 5 in game-2 but squeek out a win somehow after he opts to not play Null Rod (wanted a clock) and I can Ad Nauseam with 0 floating, it gets there.
Game-3 he missplays his daze, and I need a playable card from Ponder, which hits.

Semi-Final: Miracles 2-1
Another miracles players, le sigh. Game-1 I have a turn-2 with chant backup (and he doesn't force, which would have given him a random draw with top for the 2nd force, but I agree on not forcing).
Game-2 he has top into balance but I have LED,LED,LED,LP,IT with a PiF on top (I have SDT out also). He blindflips a land though, and I can't beat the lock with mana open.
Game-3 I can make 12 goblins after a turn-2 chant (he had 1 fow, and correctly doesn't force), and he starts digging a lot. His final ponder ends up shuffling and drawing a terminus (he had top so one deeper would have worked). Lucky me.

Final: Eldrazi 0-2
Game-1 I keep an unexciting LP, CR, IT, BS, PN, 2 Lands. I ponder into another IT+CR and keep so I can win around Chalice@1. He leads some dork though, so I brainstorm on turn-2, and chant his upkeep. He opts to wasteland me rather than keep Warping Wail mana open so I assume he doesn't have Wail. I brainstorm again into 2 lands+chant so I can't win because of hellbent/mana issues. I upkeep chant again, and combo on my turn.. into the warping wail he had. I don't like this play of wasting but it worked here (I'd have had a chant protected kill with 1 mana more).
Game-2 I mull to 5 and die hopelessly. Where were you, Serenities/fast hands :(?

Very nice Jamie. Would you mind posting your list?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nevilshute

Very nice Jamie. Would you mind posting your list?

---

Sure, with the disclaimer that I don't suggest anyone playing UBw as I feel the discard lists are simply better. And the same goes for cutting green, although it is possible to run green in this list if you'd want to.

Quote:

---

Jamie Westlake
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Silence
3 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard
3 Serenity
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Defense Grid
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Leyline of Sanctity

---

Will someone help me by telling me what they think about siding choices with ANT vs Eldrazi?


4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining top

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Disfigure
2 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island

I am thinking:

-4 Therapy
-2 Preordain
-1 Island
-1 Ad Nauseam

+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Rebuild
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Empty the Warrens

Is Duress stronger than Therapy in this matchup, or am I doing it wrong? Does it seem like I'm siding in too much or even siding in/out the right cards? I'm not sure how well this works, as I'm sort of new to the deck. Thanks! :D

4 Infernal Tutor, 1 Personal Tutor, 0 Dark Petition, 0 Grim Tutor was fine this weekend at GP Detroit.

The Eldrazi menace is real, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Entreat_the_Beedrills

Will someone help me by telling me what they think about siding choices with ANT vs Eldrazi?...I am thinking:

-4 Therapy
-2 Preordain
-1 Island
-1 Ad Nauseam

+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Rebuild
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Empty the Warrens

Is Duress stronger than Therapy in this matchup, or am I doing it wrong? Does it seem like I'm siding in too much or even siding in/out the right cards? I'm not sure how well this works, as I'm sort of new to the deck. Thanks! :D

---

Looks not too far off of what I'd do in this matchup. The main thing is that I don't think siding in that many answers is going to help as much as siding in around 5 cards because some of those options are a bit slow and discard still helps if they're not on the play. I didn't face the Eldrazi yesterday, but I was thinking of siding like this:

+1 Tropical Island
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Empty the Warrens

-2 Duress
-2 Cabal Therapy
-2 Preordain

This would leave me with 12 cantrips (incl. Probe), 2 Therapy, 0 Duress, 6 ≥4-cmc spells, 15 lands. Another possibility would be to cut either Infernal Tutor or Ad Nauseam for another Decay, but AdN saved me before. Unfortunately, we need to have at least one Petition/Grim in case of Chalice on 2. Another thing I was kicking around was replacing a Petition and an AdN with two copies of Empty.

I wouldn't bring in many green cards because of the threat posed by Wasteland. That might be a good reason to increase the land count to 15, which is what I'm planning to do next time I face the Menace. An extra land will also help us pull out our three-costed spells without being able to use rituals. Abrupt Decay doesn't help that much if they can land more than one hate piece. The good thing about it is that it punches through Chalice on 2, so it's probably worth putting in one or two copies. I'm predisposed not to like Echoing Truth simply because it won't stop Chalice+Thorn, but I don't have a lot of experience with the matchup.

Thorn is pretty bad for us if we want to run KGrip or Rebuild, but I don't see a lot of options for us if we don't run 3-cmc spells for getting around Chalice. Chalice on 2 might not stop us dead, but it shuts off Infernal, Cabal Ritual, Hurkyl's, and Echoing Truth. Anyone have testing data to contribute?

The Duress versus Cabal Therapy argument essentially revolves around how likely you think you'll be to know/anticipate what's in their hand. I prefer to have Therapies because of the likelihood that we can hit multiple copies of a problem permanent, but it does rely rather heavily on Gitaxian Probes if we're not sure what we're facing, and if they have varied hate, we won't get all of it unless we either flash it back or draw multiple copies. My gut says that blind-naming Chalice with Therapy is the best call because it's their most problematic card for us. The advantage of Duress is that we get to take any one of their problem permanents regardless of whether we get to peek first. So it's great if they don't have a stacked hand, but it's worse if we T1 Duress and see 2 Chalices. I think the jury's still out at this point.

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iatee

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

---

It's not bad but pretty narrow. After 4 Abrupt Decays, 1-2 copies of Recall/Rebuild, including an additional 1-2 cards in the board just for this matchup may be diluting the SB too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iatee

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

---

The thought had crossed my mind. I don't know, though; we don't have the same ability to power it out and get the 3/3 out of it before they'll have 4/4s or 5/5s, and we need access to red mana even for the evoke cost. Chalice is also restricted in Vintage, but Legacy allows quads.

I guess that if people aim to go for the point-kill plan over the mass-bounce/removal package (i.e., Hurkyl's, Rebuild, or maybe Serenity, Shatterstorm, or Pernicious Deed), Chewers are probably better than anything else we can run. Can't be countered by any feasible Chalice, works around Thorn, and doesn't get totally hosed by Trinisphere. But I think there are three types of hands we'll face from the Eldrazi: ones with no hate-artifacts (we just go for the combo), ones with a single hate-artifact (we play around it or we lose), or ones with multiple hate-artifacts (we try to remove them all or combo through one or two, in which case we probably lose). I don't think it's unreasonable for an Eldrazi player to mulligan until they hit at least one Chalice or Thorn against us, but if we're anticipating a low threat-density, Chewer seems good. I just think they can field a larger number of hate pieces than we can disrupt with a piece of spot removal (especially if they board in Trinispheres, which, fortunately, yet for reasons unclear, they don't seem to be doing very much at the moment).

It seems to me that we'd be best served to run Rebuilds, perhaps with a singleton Hurkyl's Recall. Rebuild only really has trouble with Thorn, but it's unaffected by Trini and it's hard to stop with Chalice. Being able to main-phase it and bounce our own mana artifacts Chain-style seems great, though I don't think we're likely to develop the mana to optimize the play (i.e., play artifacts during our main phase, play Rebuild, play artifacts again for storm count). One line that occurred to me a while back was to play out our mana artifacts early if we've got Rebuild in hand, ideally circumventing Chalice on 0, then Rebuild during their end step to play our artifacts during our following turn without resistance.

If anyone's testing the Ingot Chewer strategy, I'd be interested to hear results. Seems like we'd need a Volcanic and a Badlands to make it happen consistently, though, and I would rather have something to cut through multiple hate cards in one fell swoop without relying on our sparsest maindeck colored sources.

Davelin, I'm starting to wonder whether it might be worth it to make more space in the 'board for the Eldrazi. Eldrazi's hate package has some similarity to fringe decks that have been a Thorn (lol) in our side for a while (MUD, "Punishing Blue," other stompy decks), and aside from Tropical, 4x Abrupt Decay, KGrip, Disfigures, Chains, and an Empty the Warrens, there's room for experimentation, I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iatee

I'm not a Storm player, but has anyone given any thought to playing Ingot Chewers vs Eldrazi? Stealing tech from Vintage doesn't seem like the worst idea in a Shops-esque meta.

---

If you aren't running Ad Nauseam I think it's a fair call. It has a clear edge over instant/sorcery answers when facing Thorn specifically where as against Sphere and Chalice I'd rather have Hurkyl's Recall tbh.

I'm actually considering going up to three HRs if Eldrazi is here to stay as a new mainstay. If that's the case then I'm also opting to play Ad Nauseam in the main and as such adding some number of Chewers seem like a big cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

But I think there are three types of hands we'll face from the Eldrazi: ones with no hate-artifacts (we just go for the combo), ones with a single hate-artifact (we play around it or we lose), or ones with multiple hate-artifacts (we try to remove them all or combo through one or two, in which case we probably lose).

---

Exactly this. It's usually not that hard to beat one hate piece, but the issue comes when they have multiple things. If it was a case of "they always have exactly one piece of hate", boarding removal would be a luxury (this is not always entirely accurate, but some things are really easy to beat). Thus, if I feel I have to dedicate cards to the matchup, I'm running a card that not win-more. (If I have spot removal and kill their one thing with it, I'm likely winning anyway.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nevilshute

If you aren't running Ad Nauseam I think it's a fair call. It has a clear edge over instant/sorcery answers when facing Thorn specifically where as against Sphere and Chalice I'd rather have Hurkyl's Recall tbh.

---

Yeah, if you're looking for spot removal against artifacts, Chewer probably is the best, but as I said, I don't think it's the effect you want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nevilshute

I'm actually considering going up to three HRs if Eldrazi is here to stay as a new mainstay. If that's the case then I'm also opting to play Ad Nauseam in the main and as such adding some number of Chewers seem like a big cost.

---

I'm not even sure Ad Nauseam is better against them than Empty, but it's highly likely you want one of the two in your maindeck right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Exactly this. It's usually not that hard to beat one hate piece, but the issue comes when they have multiple things. If it was a case of "they always have exactly one piece of hate", boarding removal would be a luxury (this is not always entirely accurate, but some things are really easy to beat). Thus, if I feel I have to dedicate cards to the matchup, I'm running a card that not win-more. (If I have spot removal and kill their one thing with it, I'm likely winning anyway.)



Yeah, if you're looking for spot removal against artifacts, Chewer probably is the best, but as I said, I don't think it's the effect you want.



I'm not even sure Ad Nauseam is better against them than Empty, but it's highly likely you want one of the two in your maindeck right now.

---

Running a list with both atm. Am reasonably happy. (3-3) vs Eldrazi currently. Not that that really says much

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Exactly this. It's usually not that hard to beat one hate piece, but the issue comes when they have multiple things. If it was a case of "they always have exactly one piece of hate", boarding removal would be a luxury (this is not always entirely accurate, but some things are really easy to beat). Thus, if I feel I have to dedicate cards to the matchup, I'm running a card that not win-more. (If I have spot removal and kill their one thing with it, I'm likely winning anyway.)



Yeah, if you're looking for spot removal against artifacts, Chewer probably is the best, but as I said, I don't think it's the effect you want.



I'm not even sure Ad Nauseam is better against them than Empty, but it's highly likely you want one of the two in your maindeck right now.

---

From what I saw online (haven't played against this deck in paper yet) after testing with a friend, a fast EtW is the best play because they cannot beat it preboard. Postboard is another thing, but still EtW remains a good option.
He played Chalice, Thorn, Wails main and Trinisphere + Surgicals!!! from the SB. It felt horrible at some point but manageable if they have only one piece as you've mentioned.

It seems to be one of those coinflip MUs we all love...

My thought process is:

Vs t1 Chalice or Thorn, Chewer is a t1 response, which means you get a t2/t3 to sculpt your hand / very likely win. Unlocking your 1 mana spells immediately is really big. I think a random 6 card plus Chewer hand vs a random 6 card plus prison card Eldrazi hand probably favors the Storm player.

I kinda expect 4 Chalice / 4 Thorn builds to be the norm. Hitting multiple pieces of hate and the mana to cast them will be relatively rare overall if they're only playing 8. You probably lose to multiple pieces of hate, even with 'the right answers' in your deck, because you don't really get to do anything until you have the answer, so even if you have Rebuild and hit all your mana, you haven't been able to sculpt your hand and need to have just naturally drawn a powerful hand on top of the Rebuild.

Also TKS is as likely to be paired with one of these hate pieces as a 2nd hate piece - TKS takes your answer, but won't get Chewer.

That said, I think the g1 for this match up is probably so unfavored that spending too many SB slots on this matchup might be a losing proposition overall (even with 4 Chewers, you're likely not to have one in hand g2 or g3) and the real answer might just be 'hope to dodge the Eldrazi games until they ban Chalice for warping the legacy meta'.