[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

I never intend to flame, but this is really common sense - I'm finding it astonishing that people are unable to grasp this. Would you ever play between one and three serum powders in a combo/vintage dredge deck? What about two Leyline of the Void in a sideboard? How about running just two aether vials... you never want to see more than 1-2 anyhow... right?

Cards that sacrifice CA for early game tempo like chrome mox are run as 'four-or-none-ofs' because they are so horrendous to draw in the midgame, so the only justification to running it is that the tempo netted in the early turns makes up for it.

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This is terrible logic.

Tao's absolutely right in that any number between 0-4 can be correct of anything. And your examples are awful because you aren't weighing the power boost you get for having something in your opening hand versus the penalty for getting it midgame or having multiples. And if you only run 2 Chrome Moxes instead of 4, you're also halving your chances of drawing it in the midgame.

What if they allowed ten of a card instead of four? Would Chrome Mox be Ten or nothing? Would Goblins run Ten Aether Vials? Ten Ringleaders?

Despite what you think, it can absolutely be correct to run less than 4 Serum Powders, less than 4 Leylines, less than 4 Vials, less than 4 Chrome Moxes, etc.

The question you should always ask yourself when determining the number of card to play in a deck is "If this was allowed to be unlimited, how many would I -want- to play?" If the answer is 0-3, play that many. If the answer is 4, 6, 10, 33, or whatever, play 4.

So after much debate I think I am going to go with the white splash despite the thought that it is inferior in some way to the green splash.

My logic is partly based on results of the last few star city games legacy opens, and partly because I just have a gut feeling to want to include swords/disenchant/silence in this deck.

I think it is odd that no one is really even discussing the white splash when it seems like 2/4 of the recent top placing goblins decks were white splashes.

The results specifically are here, the top two are white splashes:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29843
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29840
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=30749
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29179

I could have somehow searched this wrong so please correct me if I did, but it looks like half that made top 16 or higher were white splash, 1 mono red, and 1 with the rg splash.

Results don't mean everything. They could just mean the white splash was more popular or something for all I know, but I feel like maybe we should at least discuss the validity of including white instead of black or green based on the fact that one player made 5th playing 2 sacred foundries, and other took 8th with a similar (arguably better) build.

It is worth noting both of them played mogg fanatics despite the nay saying. One chose path to exile as a 3 of, and the other swords as a 4 of.Seems like path has a potential negative synergy with wasteland and port, but swords has a negative synergy with killing people.

Also I am very curious how silence/orim's chant would work against combo.

As a combo player myself I do know that while chalice or thorn can slow a combo deck down, a properly timed silence can completely win a game with a single mana. I don't know if it's too dangerous however to hope that your chant doesn't get duressed, as this seems the more likely scenario especially against TES and Ant builds that use them, but it seems worth testing considering how bad the combo matchup is.

Can't seem to get the link to work.
The White splash is popular in Italy (apparently), perhaps that is where the results are from?

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Originally Posted by arebennian

Can't seem to get the link to work.
The White splash is popular in Italy (apparently), perhaps that is where the results are from?

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The first time I posted I had one link to all 4 and it was too big. I tried to post all 4 links and it seems like it is working for me. The decks are from recent SCG opens so they happened here in the states. Sorry for the broken links, hopefully they work now.

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Originally Posted by Bluemagex2517

Sometimes you do want to see chrome mox after the opener, say when you get a big ringleader. Vial doesn't fit that comparison because it is so game breaking against some decks you are willing to take the risk of seeing multiple per game.

"I am of the opinion that chrome mox does not belong in goblins, as lackey, vial, and gator are enough game-breaking cards to pin our hopes on (that do not require the loss of CA ie goblins in hand). We do not need to lose CA to ramp into a turn 1 gator just to have him swords'd and be left with only three cards in hand."

If you find a problem with card advantage with goblins you are having the opposite results of all my testing. Generally I have more trouble casting all my cards fast enough than I do running out of them. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but if I'm right I assure you 3 chrome mox is right.

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I'm curious as to what you remove from the list for the 3 mox. And what do you RFG for the mox?

If you go back a few pages I posted a list, and that's how the conversation got started. I now believe I should add 1 matron to that list, but otherwise I think it is solid. You generally remove things like stingsourger which are great mid-late game but aren't that important. You can also remove seige gang if you don't expect to play him anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bluemagex2517

If you go back a few pages I posted a list, and that's how the conversation got started. I now believe I should add 1 matron to that list, but otherwise I think it is solid. You generally remove things like stingsourger which are great mid-late game but aren't that important. You can also remove seige gang if you don't expect to play him anyway.

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Or you could replace the chrome mox with lotus petals. That way you can save yourself from losing card advantage and there is no need for the mox mid to late game anyway. Imo, it's a crappy card for this deck. What a waste of space.

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Originally Posted by alphastorm

Or you could replace the chrome mox with lotus petals. That way you can save yourself from losing card advantage and there is no need for the mox mid to late game anyway. Imo, it's a crappy card for this deck. What a waste of space.

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I agree. What makes goblins so good is the reliability. The high number of creatures is what makes this deck hard to deal with. Each non-goblin you add to the deck automatically hurts it by adding one less CA from ringleader. Turn one Instigator is virtually the same as turn one lackey, warrants the same reaction from the opponent, the only difference is that you now have -2 cards in hand. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

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Originally Posted by JonBarber

I'm curious as to what you remove from the list for the 3 mox. And what do you RFG for the mox?

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To answer your 2nd question. If you intend to play Chrome Mox in midgame you could remove a Lackey.
To answer your 1st question: Don't play Chrome mox.

Again, I rarely playtest with Goblins but this is true for any deck with Chrome Mox.
If you play Chrome Mox, you cut Mountains for them 1-1. You remove for them the in that situation worst card. For example if your only red cards are 3 Warchiefs and 1 Ringleader you remove a Warchief and if you have 3 Ringleaders and 1 Warchief you remove a Ringleader. Usually it is not so clear so take your mana curve, your next plays, your general game plan, the board position and your opponents deck into consideation and develop a feeling for what card you need least in this game.

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Originally Posted by Tao

For example if your only red cards are 3 Warchiefs and 1 Ringleader you remove a Warchief and if you have 3 Ringleaders and 1 Warchief you remove a Ringleader.

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Lol, yet in both of these cases I wouldn't want a mox in hand.

Why not? You still have Warchief + Ringleader, only a turn faster.

Tao's examples aren't my examples.

Here I'll give an example.

Concider this hand: Mountain, Fetch, Sting scorger, chrome mox, ringleader, Matron, lackey. Obviously turn 1 lackey. But on the draw you can protect lackey from Daze. Also, if you don't draw a 2 drop you can have a turn 2 matron (or warchief if you draw one) instead of nothing. What I find problematic about goblins is that it runs so many three drops that if they answer lackey or vial you do nothing on turn 2 they can easily answer your turn 3 play and then you can have all the CA in the world they have so much tempo it doesn't matter.

Lotus petal is worth considering, but chrome mox can help you cast that matron on turn 2 and cast a seige gang on turn 4 in the same game.

Now a few disclaimers. While I think my deck is better than most stock mono red lists I do not think is solves all of goblins problems in the current metagame. I personally am not planning on taking goblins to my next two events(Vestal the 12 and then the Richmond SSG 5k open). I think chrome mox is a place to start, some numbers need to fixed and the sideboard needs to be overhauled when that is all done. Goblins suffers from 2 big problems: the guys are too small (this has been semi-addressed by most players with chieftain), too many decks are equiped to deal with lacky, instigator, vial, and warchief, b/c without those cards active the deck is just too slow.

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Originally Posted by Bluemagex2517

Tao's examples aren't my examples.

Here I'll give an example.

Concider this hand: Mountain, Fetch, Sting scorger, chrome mox, ringleader, Matron, lackey. Obviously turn 1 lackey. But on the draw you can protect lackey from Daze. Also, if you don't draw a 2 drop you can have a turn 2 matron (or warchief if you draw one) instead of nothing. What I find problematic about goblins is that it runs so many three drops that if they answer lackey or vial you do nothing on turn 2 they can easily answer your turn 3 play and then you can have all the CA in the world they have so much tempo it doesn't matter.

Lotus petal is worth considering, but chrome mox can help you cast that matron on turn 2 and cast a seige gang on turn 4 in the same game.

Now a few disclaimers. While I think my deck is better than most stock mono red lists I do not think is solves all of goblins problems in the current metagame. I personally am not planning on taking goblins to my next two events(Vestal the 12 and then the Richmond SSG 5k open). I think chrome mox is a place to start, some numbers need to fixed and the sideboard needs to be overhauled when that is all done. Goblins suffers from 2 big problems: the guys are too small (this has been semi-addressed by most players with chieftain), too many decks are equiped to deal with lacky, instigator, vial, and warchief, b/c without those cards active the deck is just too slow.

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I'm glad you could come into the goblins thread, defy all the testing done by a bunch of other players, and end by telling us we are all wrong.

Deckbuilding is not so black and white. Card choices are not so black and white. It changes, decklists are fluid, not some stable concoction that you should be running the same everytime. Even the most stable of decklists like tempo thresh experiences fluxes based on metagame choices (particularly within the sideboard).

Here is what it sounds like TO ME. I'm not going to barge into random threads and tell people they are all wrong, but this is how I personally see it. You are trying to make goblins the most aggro deck in the format. The fact that you are fetching for turn 2 warchiefs is disturbing. Goblins isn't about measured speed, it is about sprinting. It sounds like you are suffering from the noninteractive player problem. I know you have played ichorid in the past. I know you are the guy who ran FOW in the sideboard, I remember source names well. With ichorid, such noninteractivity is okay.

But goblins is all about interaction. Instead of thinking "t2 matron or t4 siege-gang commander, do you see why chrome mox is good now?" you should be thinking "how can I best win this game between me and this other player?"

They printed this new card by the way, it's called Warren Instigator. It's the two drop you are looking for. It forces your opponent to stay in answer mode. Along with goblin piledriver, we have anywhere from 5-8 2cc drops. That's enough to consistently apply pressure. While curving out can be great for goblins (and is the easiest way to win), it is definitely not necessary, depending on the matchup.

I would have to do an extensive analysis to shy you away from chrome mox. I'm not a math major, so I'll never turn you away from chrome mox. But people have tested chrome mox in a variety of legacy decks (including goblins), and every deck but combo has dropped them. I would be very wary of a card that has shown no success in any aggro decks throughout legacy.

No, lotus petal is not worth considering. Lotus petal sucks. How has this thread come to this? This is sad. Chrome mox and lotus petal are horrible. I'm all for ideas, but if I was playing against a goblins player who led with a lotus petal, I'd honestly have to hold back laughter and be glad I got a bye. Goblins is NOT a combo deck!! Maybe at one point, it was capable of t1 lackey t2 nuts t3 nuts, but not anymore. The nature of lotus petal and chrome mox leans towarsd combo. AKA not goblins.

You're thinking about it all wrong with the weak creatures as well. Instead of trying to fix it with chieftain, you should try to make it so it is not a problem. This slightly depends on personal playstyle. But Chieftain will never fix the problem. Chieftain is there because he gives haste, first and foremost. And haste gives the deck that "sprinting" feel. We are an anaerobic deck, we are the definition of it. Zoo is an aerobic deck. Turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 pridemage, turn 3 removal + goyf, turn 4 KotR. That makes zoo players splooge. The +1/+1 is actually more useful against decks without many creatures, because it accelerates your clock. Creatureless decks tend to have more answers (well of course), so we need to kill them faster before they can draw them. Chieftain helps this.

I realize my thoughts are scattered. Yes, I'm not the best at arguing my points. I have a hard time putting these abstract philosophies into words. But I can tell you that basic magic theory goes against playing chrome mox in a legacy aggro deck, and that is supported by about three kajillion proven decklists.

But to sum it up, I'll basically just trying to say that you should try thinking of goblins as a sprinting aggro deck, not as a fast aggro deck. The pressure comes in spurts, but the pressure comes so suddenly that it forces opponents to prepare for the pressure before it even happens. Along with being able to adapt to a control role when necessary, that is what makes goblins special, and why it is still in the DtB forum.

However, I'm all for innovation, and appreciate that you are trying to change things. Don't get me wrong, all this thread activity is very exciting. But I disagree with the moves you are making. I'm also curious to hear what cards specifically you talk about when saying the deck needs a "sideboard overhaul," considering that legacy sideboards are so varied and hard to put down that you are asking for an overhaul of a sideboard that has no definite existence.

Chrome mox debate:

Please don't tell me card advantage doesn't matter. You're just cutting yourself short. So that means they have a starting hand of seven cards to your six. Theoretically speaking, everyone of your cards besides lands should be a threat. So now you have minus one threat. This is an aggro deck first. Chrome mox is not a threat. It shouldn't even be considered. For those who wants to argue what about vial not being a threat, well it's just too good against control. And control is too good in legacy right now. But I do side out vial against other aggro decks.

If you have such as easy time finding the right cards to remove in your opening hand then 1. it's a hand that should have been mulliganed or 2. You shouldn't be playing those cards.

If you want to speed up your deck, there are otherways. Examples are Frogtosser Banneret and goblin warchief. Even simian spirit guide has a potential to swing for 2.

Should have been Goblin Spirit Guide...

I would tend to flat out agree with FoulQ, the guy knows his shit... particularily with VialGoblins... yeah mox is TERRIBLE in this deck, so is petal... seriously WTF???

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Originally Posted by alphastorm

If you want to speed up your deck, there are otherways. Examples are Frogtosser Banneret and goblin warchief. Even simian spirit guide has a potential to swing for 2.

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This. Frogtosser Banneret has been proven to be the best way to speed up your deck.

However, it changes the way the deck plays pretty dramatically and not only requires some changes in card choices but also in playstyle. Which is why it's easy to dismiss him at first in testing.

Some time ago I quit playing Goblins and started to play Landstill. I still had my Goblin-Deck for my Semi-Competetive-Casual group. But I decided to play Goblins again. First I wanted to stay RBg but then I decided to try Mono-R since the only black cards were Wort and Weirding.
I came to this list:
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
2 Mogg War-Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

I think the list looks solid, but I'm not sure if 2 Instigator and 2 MWM are the right choice... I would play more MWM but there is no room. And I really loved Goblin Pyromancer but it looks like he's outdated. Any suggestions?

Not everybody will agree but you could cut a Warchief. I have. (going 3/3 on warchief /chieftain). But I would put in an extra land before adding any other card.