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I haven't seen any Pox lists recently running rituals, isn't their only fast mana usually Mox Diamond? If your opponent opens with Land, Mox, Mox, Liliana, +1, now they have zero cards left to your 6-7. That doesn't seem great for them unless that last card is a Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Edit: It looks like mono-black Pox lists do run rituals, while GB Loam Pox lists don't. :themoreyouknow:
I think the most common is still mono B, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
On an unrelated note: beat 12 post today. I forced his turn 1 Top both games I won. This was basically how I won.
On my phone.
hey guys, just a quick question. In which matchup aside from Ominitell,ANT/TES and any other storm variant do we want to bring in both (or at least 1) Ethersworn Canonists?
thx
I kinda want to do it against Grixis Control, this one is totally without enough testing. Has anyone test Canonist in this MU?Quote:
Originally Posted by index
I guess Elves, but that's only if you can find another card to cut. Maybe Burn? Burn isn't a bad MU at all but slowing them down is definitely a very viable option.Quote:
Originally Posted by index
Grixis everywhere.
How would you side? Pyroclasm is now back?
Perhaps running some number of Izzet Staticaster in your sideboard would help some. Also, depending on your meta, it's probably worth deciding on some split between bolts/swords (3/3 or 2/3) in the maindeck to help deal with the early planeswalkers and increasing the removal count for Young Pyromancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Pyroclasm is a great option. And I wouldn't side out FoWs (at least not more than two). Sometimes you just need to stop an early walker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
If you can afford it, Moat does wonders.
Supreme Verdict is also a valid card.
I couldn't give you a SB plan because like Ein I don't believe in set plans for a given archetype—I'll SB differently depending on what I see G1. But I'll probably bring in my Moat, RiP, Pyroclasm, 1 or 2 REBs, Wear//Tear, and Pithing Needle while taking out 1 Terminus, 1 Jace, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Karakas (if they're on Angler and not Tasigur), 1 or 2 Snapcaster, 1 or 2 Fow, and maybe 1 DTT.
Bolt? Are you posting in the right deck? Jeskai Stoneblade hasn't been DTB for months.Quote:
Originally Posted by MindsDesire
Please don't play Bolt in Miracles. While we are okay going 1-for-1 with just about every other deck (since most of our other cards are at least 2-for-1), Bolt is not the 1-for-1 card that we want to be playing.
Hey guys, I split the top 4 of a local 1k yesterday! Of the 6 rounds (including R1 of the Top8) I played Grixis 3 times and won them all, that deck seems fold if you get CB into play.
List was:
//Lands (21)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
//Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
I was previously on the main deck V. Clique plan, I don't think I'll be going back, the deck is so smooth without. If anything I would love to wedge in the 4th Snapcaster or second Dig Through Time.
Matchups went like this:
R1: GB Chains of Mephistopheles Brew (1-0-1 Win) - Forgot to write name, sorry opponent :(.
G1 (W): I scratch out a 45 minute game 1 win. We're both tearing through cards because of his Anvil of Bogardan, but I see a lot more because of Jace. This sets me up to have a timely Counterspell for Chains, then get a big attack phase terminus to hit multiple Worm Harvest tokens and Mishra's Factories. Eventually I lock him out of retrace and Life from the Loam with Counterbalance, floating a 5 (FoW) and a 2 (CB#2). An Entreat for 4 with CS backup gets the job done.
In >> Judgement, Wear//Tear, EE | Out << Both Jace and a FoW
G2 (D): He tries to go full aggro with Mishra's Factories (Crop rotation for more factories) but I have the double STP double Snapcaster draw. Game falls back into a grind and we run out of time.
R2: Grixis Control (2-0 Win) - Jeff
G1 (W): I terminus away Pyromancer and tokens once or twice and find a spot to land a protected Counterbalance. He packs it in after CB reveals a 1 and 2 on top.
In >> Wear/Tear, EE, Blasts, Mentor | Out<< Jace, Entreats, Plains, FoW
G2 (W): I get an earlyish Mentor but he has has Bolt for it. Eventually game 1 repeats, I terminus his board and bait a counter war over a Dig on his end step which lets me resolve Counterbalance on my turn, after that he doesn't get to play magic and snapcaster beats seals the deal.
R3: 12-Post MUD (1-2 Lose) - Colton
G1 (L): I kill a metalworker and a Lodestone Golem, but eventually he lands Trinisphere and an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I quickly pack-em in for game 2.
I believe I sideboard totally wrong, taking out some number of Terminus and Entreats for Wear/Tear, Judgement, Mentors and Cliques. I think I should have kept all Terminuses in, too many creature based threats.
G2 (W): I have an EOT Wear for his Trinisphere which lets me set up Top and Swords his Wurmcoil. I Clique him on his Draw step. He has double Ugin, Sundering Titan and lands. I have FoW, blue card, Mentor and Judgement in hand. I take one Ugin, planning to FoW the Titan. This prompts him to drop the second Ugin and shoot me for 3. I untap and judgement it, then FoW the Titan on his turn. I follow up with Mentor and a second Top. Draw With Top -> Play Top -> Repeat for maximum mentor shenanigans gets the win.
G3 (L): I trade resources to stop his lock pieces, then he hard casts some Eldrazi :(.
R4: Grixis Delver (2-0 Win) - Ed D.
G1 (W): He has an early Pyromancer, I have a CB but no top. He goes for a Deathrite Shaman, I know the top cards are lands from a cantrip, so I fetch them away trying to hit it blind. He says "Cut him right to the terminus..." and boom, there it is. Shaman resolves, untap, Terminus his board away. Cantrip again finds Top and he scoops them up once CB counters the next threat.
I board the same as against Grixis control earlier: In >> Wear/Tear, EE, Blasts, Mentor | Out<< Jace, Entreats, Plains, FoW
G2 (W): I believe I get a pretty early CB/Top lock on, he tries to get it by forcing a 2 coster to the top and then Pyroblasting, but I am able to save it. Details on this game are fuzzy, sorry.
R5: ID with other Ben
The ID puts me to 3-1-1 and in as the 8th seed.
Top 8 Vs Grixis Control (2-1 Win) - Eli K.
G1 (W): I open lands and miracles... mulligan to 6. My six is a keepable one lander with cantrips, Top, STP and CB. We both open Ponders, mine finds the lands I need. This first game is very back and forth. I answer a couple of his first threats, he stops my first counterbalance but I was floating a second on top. He has the read and Clique's it away. A quick fetchland shuffle into Top activation finds it again, and the third CB sticks. He does a good job trying to play around CB by responding to EOT top activations when I'm short on mana and manages to find a FoW for my first Entreat. The second Entreat I am able to resolve with some back-up and the angels quickly put the game away.
Not sure why, but I decide to minimally sideboard against Eli, bringing in Wear//Tear and a few Blasts for Jaces/Plains, leaving Entreats in the deck and Mentors in the board.
G2 (L): I get punished hard for my decision to not increase my live openers, opening another lands and Miracles hand. My mull to 6 is a Zero lander... my 5 card hand is at least 2 lands and 3 Cantrips. Despite the brutal mulligans I am able to put up a bit of a fight as my cantrips find removal for his early plays, but I get out card advantaged pretty hard when I can't stop his EOT Fact or Fiction. I think I have an out when I am able to stack back to back Entreat the Angels on top of my deck which would leave me with 3-4 tokens which I am pretty sure he can't beat. Unfortunately he somehow has a sick read and uses his one of Recoil(!) on my basic Plains. This leaves me unable to cast entreat for lack of white mana. He sees the entreat in my hand with a cabal therapy and I die to a Tasigur.
I go back to my SB. I didn't see any targets in game 2 so I take Wear//Tear back out, get them Entreats out of there, get all my blasts in and the Mentors in.
G3 (W): I pull a sick opener with Top/CB/Counterspell/Ponder/Land. Turn 1 Ponder finds me double red blast. I badly waste a blast on his EOT brainstorm, this at least baits out a V. Clique which I hit with the second blast. I get down my Top but the first CB gets countered, luckily I am floating another on top and I eventually find a Mentor, while he manages to sneak a Snapcaster into play to rebuy a brainstorm. I eat snapcaster beats for a few turns while building up mana, then drop CB, save it with Counterspell, and on the following turn drop my maximum surprise factor Mentor.
He goes for a Bolt on my Mentor. I activate top, move an STP to the Top, go to reveal and he stops me, then fires a Kolaghan's Command, choosing 2 damage to mentor and destroy Top. I draw with Top, cast the STP on his Snapcaster to trigger my mentor (surviving the 2 damage), and then reveal the Top to counter the Bolt. He waits out a turn or two of me attacking and then scoops them up.
The remainder of the top 4 decides to split and go home. I picked up a mana drain and some cube/edh cards for my trouble.
Thanks for the writeup! Since Grixis hasn't caught on yet in my meta, I need to play vicariously through people who have played it :tongue:
No Blood Moon for MUD/12-post?
Blood Moon and Rest in Peace have each been in and out of my board a bunch, I expected to face a number of Mirror matches and wanted the Pierces to win the CB fight, but I think I ended up being the only Miracle in the room for the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Also MUD/12-Post has been practically non-existent here since I've been playing again. If it becomes more of a thing I'll probably find some room.
I heavily advocate playing Pierces in the main. In turns 1-4 in the current meta, it's often a 1-mana Negate. Then it pitches to FoW when you don't need it anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
I admit I haven't tried it, but I don't really like the theory--I don't want to be playing cards that start or become dead. I am going to be playing the long-game and am not often making moves early.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Similar reasoning is behind cutting cliques from the main deck... it's not good all the time. Every other card in the maindeck is good pretty much all the time.
I feel like having pierce and clique in the side for the matchups where those cards are key is good enough. Having main pierces is kind of like having main pyroblasts IMO, you're pre-boarded against your expected meta.
While I think spell pierce is a fine card, I'm not actually convinced that it's stronger than a REB effect right now. Most of the non-creatures you want to hit are blue anyway. Blast has the upside of hitting delvers, stopping Snapcasters cold, and not losing value as the game goes on. Frankly, being able to hit delvers is probably worth more than being able to hit all the non-blue non-creatures in the current meta, at least for maindeck considerations.
The reason I prefer Pierce over REB (which I have in the side) is because we're already favored against most other blue decks, so I'm okay letting my opponent resolve some random Snapcaster and countering what they want to flash back, then Terminus'ing away their board. Also, having REB in hand and facing a Turn 2 Hymn or Lili or Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere (not that big of a deal but still a thorn) is pretty feel bad. It also exposes me to Wasteland and I hate playing Mountain. It also stops an opponent's Top if they didn't land one turn 1. REB also doesn't stop an opponent's "cast Ad Nauseum, no mana floating, no cards in hand."
Sure, Pierce can get bad late-game, but sometimes your opponent taps out and it's live again. However, if REB is a dead card in a MU, it will stay dead.
Hi all,
I'd like to know if anybody by here is Joe Losset, as I was taking again Miracles and among all Miracles decks, Joe's one seems to me the one that fits my playstile and like more and would like to chat to him to just ask some side strategy questions.
I've read the last pages of this thread and the Philip Shronenger articles about HowToSide was very usefull - thanks for writing this.
The unique thing I'm trying from the last development of the deck is just adding wastelands v those boseijus... I'm liking alot the caverns - vensers plan vs mirrors...
It is ok if someone is acquainted with Joe's deck.
I know I will be blamed by my Storm friends by joining to the dark side...
Thanks in advance.
Hydroblast/BEB is a valid SB card, but right now the meta is not red enough to make it super-useful. Oh, and they can Spell Pierce/Daze/FoW your BEB. What are you going to do now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Just play Terminus and do your best to land a CB (if that means letting a TNN resolve, then so be it). They cannot deal with a resolve CB and once you've flipped a 1-drop to counter their cantrip, you've won.
Man, I don't know what's so wrong between you and me but: obviously BEB is so cheap that they "can't" Pierce/Daze it and if they spend a FoW on it, I am very happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
But, yes, you're right. The meta is not red enough for it. 4Ponders list probably do better against Grixis because they can dig more for CB.
Terminus costs the same as BEB. They "can't" Pierce/Daze it and if they spend a FoW on it then whatever, you have 3 more and they're down 2 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Learn to actually play the deck before asking how to sideboard against whatever MU.
It can't be right to side out a Terminus. I'd cut STP before touching my Terminus. I played some post-board testing games against Grixis Control, and I was playing the following list:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
4 Snapcaster
4 SDT
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 STP
4 Terminus
4 FoW
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
1 DTT
2 JTMS
Standard 21 lands
Sideboard:
3 REB
1 Pyroclasm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blood Moon
2 RIP
1 Disenchant
1 Canonist
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Monastery Mentor
Against Grixis, I sideboarded
In: 3 REB, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Clique, 2 Mentor
Out: 2 Plains, 4 FoW, 2 STP, 1 ETA
Snapcaster was the best card in the deck against him, and allowed me to navigate the game to getting CB on a clear board. I probably should've found room for Disenchant, as he left Strix in, and brought in Null Rods. I only saw Mentor once, and it was a white, 3 cmc Hymn to Tourach.
I haven't actually played against the deck so I don't know what to expect. But I take out the 4th Terminus because I MD a Supreme Verdict. It really all depends on what I see out of the deck G1 and whether or not I feel comfortable with the 4 Terminuses G1 (in other words, am I always thinking, "There better fucking be a Terminus on top.")Quote:
Originally Posted by presquepartout
As much as I like the idea of 4 Snapcaster, don't you feel only 1 Entreat is too dangerous? The back-up plans of Jace ult and Snappy beats seem dubious.
The whole concept of control is to stabilize and to control. Win condition is the least of your concern. If you can control the board state, you can pretty much win with anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
The reason for running multiple Entreat really is for time constraint. Most of us can struggle finishing game 2 or game 3. Entreat's closing speed is as good as and sometimes faster than Mentor.
hi, i would say my opinion. i've played and won an event in Italy with Miracle with Mentor MD like the GP Kyoto. it was the first time i played miracle in a tounrament, but the deck performed very well.
the main things that i find out are 2:
1) Mentor can keep under control the board event if you don't see remuvals, thing that Angels can't do in early game, and sometimes even in late.
2) For the oppo is very hard find a good side in/out, because if they keep the remuvals could died by Jace or other spells like CB...here there is a report made by guy who did top8 and played against me on round 5 and than in top8, as you can read, it was hard for him find the right side against me.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...onder-Miracles
The reasoning of B88 is right in my opinion... but i will still play Entreat maindeckQuote:
Originally Posted by B88
both cards basically reads: two turns, you win the game... don't get tricked by the cc of Mentor, it basically costs 4 or 5 like entreat for win the game, one makes you tap 3 sorcery speed and 1 or 2 at instant speed, the other one basically makes you tap 5 at instant speed, but in topdeck mode Entreat is simply superior, for mentor to work properly you better have 2 or 3 cards in hand,and entreat plays better in a deck that's packing terminus.
Having Mentor sb also gives your opponents an hard time sideboarding, even playing 1 if they keep in hate for creatures they're drawing dead until you cast mentor, if they're not keeping it in they're concedeing to it.
Mentor is a little better in the midgame, entreat is better in the late... where we want to go usually...
only my two cents
I was commenting on @presquepartout's list with 4 Snapcasters and a single lonely Entreat, not trying to compare Entreat to Mentor or anything like that. I was just pointing out that having only one copy of a card that needs to resolve for you to end the game in a reasonable amount of time would make me uncomfortable. I was just curious how it was working out for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
...Because on your other point, IMO, the win-con does matter quite a bit. Entreat is a huge positive to the deck when compared to other control strategies, the fact that the win con is so explosive means you can win games even if you do end up falling behind on board. So yes, your goal is to control the board, and plenty of games are won on the back of wizard beats, but I for sure prefer being able to win anyway when that strategy doesn't pan out.
I have had a number of instances where something happens to my first set of tokens (Verdict, EE, Toxic Deluge, what have you) and win anyway off the back of the second copy. Not having another "oops I win" in your pocket seems like it will lose/draw games while you try to ramp up a Jace or beat down with a 2/1.
As a specific example, a few weeks ago I won a grindy game against Tezzeret. I was staring down an enemy Jace + Tezzeret + newly summoned Thopter/Sword combo with nothing but lands and a Top in play. My first army of angels had eaten a Toxic Deluge a few turns prior. I still won despite the board state because I was able to make 9 more hasty angel tokens.
So, as much as I like the idea of bumping snappy up to 4, removing the powerhouse win-con #2 option to do it I think would lose me games in the long run... but maybe I'm off base here.
When people make statements like this, I want to agree in a vacuum. However, Cavern makes the comparison complicated. I will assume all the Mentor lists contain Cavern. Hence,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
un-counterable mentor vs the opportunity cost of running Cavern (Need W Mana asap but Cavern is mocking you) is an footnote that needs to be mentioned in this context. Also, just because you run Cavern, that does not mean you will always want to name Human/Monk in the SB games and you'll always have it when you want to play Mentor.
My take is that if you're convinced of running Cavern in your 75. Mentor is just the next logical step.
How do you guys would board vs. the mentor deck from GP Kyoto? I guess the plan is basically to lock them down with CB and then win from there, but i'm not sure if i should keep in some removals ( Terminuses) or if I should board in mentor, in the first case i guess we're basically losing until we don't resolve a counterbalance, in the second case it seems to me that we are playing an underpowered version of the deck for the "Mentor Mirror" because they're basically playing twice our mentors and the first who resolve that is greatly advantaged IMHO...
in my previous experience i thought of this two plans:
-4 STP, -1/2 Plains, -4 Terminus,
+2 Reb, +Wear/Tear, +Council's Judgment, +Engineered Explosives, +2 Monastery mentor, +2 Vendilion/ Flusterstorm
or:
-4 STP, -1/2 PLains -1/2 Terminus
+2 Reb, +Wear/Tear, +Council's Judgment, +Engineered Explosives, +2/3 Vendilion/ Flusterstorm
playing this decklists:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid mesa
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Dig Through Time
SB:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Rest in Peace
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Wear/Tear
Does anybody have any experience in this matchup?
What's the plan to fight Boseiju? Yuta Takahashi played two Wasteland at GP Kyoto, apparently to good effect, it just feels so weird.
Otherwise we have to let SnT resolve then fight the stack after that with Pyros, Clique and countermagic?
Yeah, that's how it's done. That just requires for you, almost, to have CB, as he otherwise can just do everything on the stack, with more cards being relevant than you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Seems tough, but definitely doable, cheers. Might consider upping the Flusterstorm count to 3 to fight in this situation then. I think every Omni list will have 2 Boseiju after board now so it will happen a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I assume people have tried Meddling Mage in the board, any success with that?
Considering Omnitell is a spell based combo deck, permanent based hate is pretty good. Just put MM on SnT and make sure their Wishes dont resolve and you should be golden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
That's the plan! I just wonder if Meddling Mage is worth the sideboard slot, though. It does get Pyroblasted too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
If they are playing the red splash, chances are they don't have that many Boseiju's and then you just need to watch out for Pyromannen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
MM is also excellent versus storm. Just stick it and say Abrupt Decay and your CB is safe forever.
I never understood why people board out Terminus in the mirror if you expect them to have creatures post-board. In my Legacy 18-man last week, I faced two mirrors and I kept in at least 2-3 Terminus for both matches, and I won both mirrors 2-0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
With your list, if you're playing an exact mirror, I would board like so:
-1 Ponder
-1 FoW
-1 Dig
-1 Entreat
-1 Terminus
-2 Swords
-1 Snapcaster
+1 Pyrob
+1 REB
+2 Mentor
+1 Wear/Tear
+2 V Clique
+1 Council's Judgment (because sometimes you'll come across a pesky permanent and want that extra removal—a topdeck CJ saved my ass in the mirror when he had a Jace on 9)
This board plan is also valid for a Legends Miracles list. If you're playing against a different list that isn't creature heavy, I would board differently. I am not a fan of EE because why do half the job a Terminus can do? EE is not Pernicious Deed, and that's why I don't play it in my SB. My board wipe should be able to wipe the entire board or else I'm not playing it.
Why don't you board plains in the mirror? I'd much rather have Ponder than Plains, that's for sure...Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
He also boards out Snapcaster and Dig (and Ponder/FoW) while keeping Swords. I think we have found ourselves a new Poron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I think you need to calm down, first of all. We're discussing the motion towards creatures. Not the standard 3 snap, 2 clique configuration, where REB killed everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
Why do we need to keep in Plows? The only creature that doesn't die to Reb is mentor that usually leaves behind 1 or 2 tokens. .. i'd prefer to cut 1 plains and the other 2 plows and keep in FoW Snapcaster and Dig...Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
My mistake, I do board out a Plains. But I don't think 4 Ponder in G2 is where you want to be (I play a 3-Ponder list myself so I guess my personal preference is leaking)Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Because they might board into more creatures so you would often just want more spot removal, plus it frees up your REB effects for noncreature spells if you need it. Don't just board for what you see, you also need to plan for what might come in on their side. And yea I suppose I would keep in a FoW, now looking back at my board plan from last week in the mirror. :shrug: Keep in mind I only play 2 Snaps so I'm not used to seeing more than 1 every couple games. Maybe you're heavily reliant on him and want to see him every game and that's your play style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Ha you're funny. I wonder how I went 2-0 (2-0, 2-0) in both Miracles mirrors I played last week:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual