Re: double post, what about three mana spells like Perish and Flamebreak? You get one untap, one draw, one land, and one attack. Anything more is powerful because it's effectively cheating, and I don't want to let my opp. cheat.
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Re: double post, what about three mana spells like Perish and Flamebreak? You get one untap, one draw, one land, and one attack. Anything more is powerful because it's effectively cheating, and I don't want to let my opp. cheat.
how many decks play those that actually top 8 often. flamebreak often comes in against you by decks that you have a very great MU with; as for perish, its basically a 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, and between your burns and the haste on gg, you can burn em out usually. also, black decks like to pay life.
I would like to talk about sb plans against black decks that run deed, crusaders, bobs, gatekeeper, nighthawk, etc. It can be tough
Just play the burn on their creatures and watch also out for discard :)
bant, thank you, but really, what can i board against them. bwg deed + thoughtseize+ wasteland + vindicate+ stoneforge package(protected by thoughtseize) is a problem for our deck.
If they get it online yes,
playtest it and ask them to play no mm now...
You will see they can't protect them.
The only problem for me atm is if they get it online (a batterskull) and a progenitus.
I play fast zoo now, maybe switching back to slower where I can do some more things
against artifacts and graveyard hate mainboard (tin street, qasali and scavenging ooze).
But for the rets always burn their dryad arbor and also their nobles and sfm and you'll be allright :)
I just think the problem is a NOPRO for this deck and combo.
So I don't know it at the moment and need to test more.
Maybe show your list and then we can see...
gr
my main problem is gatekeeper of malakir. its a serious problem, and it helps the stall until deed or stoneforge hits the board
my list 12 fetch, 3 basic 5 duals
4 steppe lynx
3 chain lightning
4 path
3 gaddock teeg
4 goblin guide
3 pridemage
2 pop
2 library
the rest is in every deck
no knights or sf package
4x PoP after SB and some early beatdown + few bolts should finish rock type decks fairly easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by jnosrati
Since Mental Misstep is effectively gone, for the next couple GPT's I'll be taking Zoo for a number of reasons. In an unknown metagame, it's best to play to one's strengths. Zoo is looking pretty good in a field of pet decks people will undoutibly be bringing back to the tables. For an unknown meta, Zoo's consistency is also a strength. Good on all the Storm players who get to do their thing again. Playing control right now seems haphazard. Here's my list, before any meta adapts, I wouldn't change a thing.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB:
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Price of Progress
3 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip
I know that a lot of people have played Goblin Guide and have done very well, I can't shake the feeling that it's just loose play. Digging them two cards deeper into a library, even at the cost of an upgraded damage rate, seems kinda bad. That, and it now it trades with Snap. For example, I would not want to run against the following opener from any opponent.
T1: Brainstorm, putting a land so that guide will trigger
T2: Stoneforge Mystic
Our T3/T4: Guide Trigger On, Snap into Brainstorm, Guide Trigger, Blocks.
This is the decklist I'm currently running, and I'd appreciate some critique/suggestions on it.
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Steppe Lynx
3x Kird Ape
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile
3x Price of Progress
2x Sylvan Library
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
1x Savannah
2x Plateau
SB:
3x Ancient Grudge
4x R.E.B.
1x Pyroblast
1x Thrun, The Last Troll
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
It's a bit slower out of the gate than decks with the four by four set of aggressive one drops, but the burn reach is nice, Price is always the nuts against the decks I need it against, (Disclaimer, I haven't hit High Tide yet), and Sylvan Library can sometimes just win games.
I was considering adding a 3rd Sylvan to the Md, but I wouldn't know where to start cutting things.
Each unto their own. It's loose play to land a SFM on turn two against a deck that opened with Goblin Guide...
My advice, let testing and quantifiable results sway your oppinion, and not how things can play out on paper. As far as adding a third Library, you can go the Hatfield route and jam three in there, I love that card too, but it does not fit into any curve and is a better topdeck than anything else. Keep your threats dense and stay at two. You'll probably still be happy drawing it, I know I am. Why [on Earth] are you [still] playing four Lightning Helix? Zoo mirrors? Just curious. It was good in the face of Mental Misstep, and the occasional Storm/Aggro match where lifegain mattered.
It's like some kind of double-post clusterfuck in here!
On post-mm: I don't know if Zoo is going to be great at large events, just because the hivemind is saying combo is back, so everyone and their mother is going to be running TES or High Tide. I would personally run something with disruption until we see if the crop of Aggro-control archetypes that have been dominating the past couple months can adapt to a more combo-heavy meta.
@Aggro's list: I think running guide or not depends on what kind of Zoo strategy you want to take. If you're running something more like cat sligh (which it looks like you are), you might want to try 4 Guides instead of 3x Ape and 1x Pridemage. I'm personally not a huge fan of Guide, but then I prefer a list that's a bit slower but has a slightly better mid game. With your list, you're really hoping to just overrun and get in as much creature damage as early as possible to put them in burn range by the time they drop some defenders. I guess it's the same line of logic as PtE over StP - you're willing to trade a mid-game advantage for extra damage, because you really don't want to see anything past turn 4 anyway.
One change I would definitely make though is -1 PoP, +1 Chain Lightning. PoP is a great finisher, but Chain is more versatile. I'd probably cut a Helix for the 4th Path as well.
I doubt people play their pet decks @ GPT's.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Competitive pet decks like Enchantress and Death and Taxes, or pet decks like tribal Vampires and Stasis? Seems like there's always some of the former at large events regardless of the level.
Re: meta, people seem to be predicting a rise of combo again, which makes me wonder if Zoo's really the best bet.
Although a lot of people are saying that combo is going to take the meta now, combo wasn't especially dominant before misstep, and there isn't really a reason to suspect that it's going to be the end all right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I can't imagine there were legions of combo players practicing and perfecting their evil craft in preparation for a day that they might live to see without mental misstep, who are now all ready to unleash a storm/tide (Ha) of tendrils upon us.
Now, that said, High Tide is going to be a major part of the metagame again, and we'll have to look out for it, but I can imagine for every decent high tide or other combo player, there will be three or four new combo players who don't know all the ins and outs of their deck and are just going to attempt to take advantage of the supposed upcoming combo free for all (And suck while doing it).
That said, I play in LA, so, I'm prepping for combo. Teegs, Canonists, Full suite of blasts, shits going down in my sideboard.
Our deck is already one of the most finely tuned killing machines available in the metagame. Our lists are (Mostly) tuned, and now that we don't have to worry about misstep, we know the one drop is going to stick unless they give up a lot of tempo (Daze) or CA (Force) in exchange. While people are still adjusting and tuning their decklists to the new meta, we'll be ready with a ridiculously fast clock, and punish anyone for not putting presence on the board.
It's not that combo got any better than pre misstep, it's just that it's getting tons of hype now, and if it places in the next couple SCGs, you can bet a lot of people will jump on that bandwagon.
You laugh now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Goin Aggro
I'm pretty sure this is exactly what is happening. Combo players shelved their decks or picked up other combo like Hive Mind for example, now they can play with their love affairs without much to worry about.
plus, @goblinaggro: playing SFM on turn two, especially against a deck that starts wtih Goblin Guide, is loose play. I see your point but results from quality play testing are more effective than running through interactions in a vacuum
Here are my thoughts:
Play 1-drop Zoo still. It's fast enough to put pressure on everyone, including Storm-style decks. Running 3 Teegs and some number of other anti-Combo hate (+4 Red Blasts!) in the board seems like a great idea as well in the coming month. Relying on your speed and consistency to smash in the slower decks is still a reasonable trade-off for the sketchy Storm matchup.
Helix seems slow unless you face a ton of Red Decks and Zoo mirrors. And in the Zoo mirror, you should win anyway because you know your deck better than your opponent right? So just run 4x Chain Lightning instead, and Bolt your opponent at least twice a game happily. Even without Misstep we can't have those Mystics sticking around for a turn. I like 4x Bolt, 4x Chain, and 2-4 slots of some combination of Fireblast and Price of Progress in the main, usually 2 and 2. If Counterbalance and ANT become wildly popular again, I'd probably just run 3x Fireblast and leave the PoPs in the board. Having access to this much burn allows for us to apply more pressure in the early game, knowing we can actually close the midgame out with spells. And ANT players are terrified of that Fireblast/Bolt in your hand.
Goblin Guide has his drawbacks, no doubt, especially against Brainstorm and other savvy Library-Manipulating players. However, he still represents the closest thing to Wild Nacatl 5-8, as they both are reliably capable of dishing out upwards of 6 damage in the first few turns if left unmolested. Kird Apes of the world maybe better in the long run at a big tournament, but I still like the explosiveness of "Turn 1, Wild Nacatl, Turn 2, Goblin Guide, Goblin Guide...." Rare, I know, but you get the point. Redundancy is key in Zoo, and the first turn we WANT to drop the fastest threat in the format, EVERY time. Kird Ape against Combo is somewhat laughable, but they will respect Goblin Guide hands down. On that note, I LOVE love love Steppe Lynx, but unless you're running 24 lands with 12 or more fetches, it's just not that reliable of a kitty. Squeeze in 14 fetchlands and maybe you're in business, but short of that I think you will be disappointed more often than not. A 4/5 once is not as good as a 4/5 for three turns in a row.
Sylvan Library is one of the best cards in our deck, and I can say it has definitely won me games that would have been far out of reach otherwise. However, I think 1 or 2 is the correct number to run, no more. It's not a card we want to see in multiples, but seeing one every other game is just about right.
It's been awhile since I've played Zoo, as I've been focusing on building a proper Junk collection, but I'm getting the hankering to sling Green and Red spells at Mach speed again. Here is the first draft of the list I will have together in the coming weeks:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
2 Dismember
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswepth Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
SB:
4 Red Elemental Blasts
1 Pyroblast
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Path to Exile
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Maindeck is pretty close to what I'll actually play, but the number of Lavamancers/Guides/Apes could change depending on what shakes out. I want to try out Dismember in place of Path to Exile, as I am also attempting to "splash" a couple Wastelands. I haven't felt the need to try this before, but mana denial can be very strong alongside the pressure that Zoo can apply. It's Experimental, I will let you know how it turns out. It's possible the Horizon Canopy just needs to be the 4th Windswepth Heath to support the somewhat shaky manabase. I may also cut the Wastelands for another Basic and another spell, as 21 lands has usually been my number.
Sideboard is just a guess, I haven't actually gotten to run the 3x Singleton Stoneforge package, and am excited to playtest it even if her time has passed. I was too busy burning the Mystics out of my own way before to actually get a chance to PLAY with them, and god forbid I actually build a U/W Standard deck.... Anyway, the lack of GY hate is very apparent, hence the 5th Red Blast for matchups like Reanimator and Storm. I lost the last round of the Provvy GP to Reanimator on the bubble, so fuck that deck, eat my Red Blasts. Graveyard hate is always sketchy at best, and we can win the Dredge matchup without it with the right kind of luck. Also, as mentioned above, I expect regular Combo to be more popular than Dredge and Reanimator in the coming weeks, but that could change. Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge because CounterTop will be back, and if it's actually good again (some seem to doubt it will be), then 2x Grip is probably the better call there. Gaddock is better in my opinion that Canonist in a variety of matchups, but she will be on the sidelines waiting just in case.
Thoughts?
The threads I've been tracking (e.g. Merfs and Zoo) have all been double posting like mad.
I like the idea of smaller Zoo. I'm using GSZ to maintain some amount of flexibility and reach (Goyf for 3 is still worth it) instead of running actual 3-drops. Also, Rancor's great for pushing damage through chump blockers. Yeah, yeah potential 2-for-1s. I run them anyway.
The threads I've been tracking (e.g. Merfs and Zoo) have all been double posting like mad.
I like the idea of smaller Zoo. I'm using GSZ to maintain some amount of flexibility and reach (Goyf for 3 is still worth it) instead of running actual 3-drops. Also, Rancor's great for pushing damage through chump blockers. Yeah, yeah potential 2-for-1s. I run them anyway.