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My 1 Ad Naus, 1 Tendrils, 1 PIF, 0 Dark Petition, 1 Empty the Warrens, 1 Personal Tutor maindeck was fine in the GP Detroit side events. Personal Tutor is a real card.
Chewer was also fine. Sphinx underperformed. (Cast it once, it was answered immediately. Flipped it once to Ad Nauseam.)
A few quick things:Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
—Thought-Knot Seer CAN hit Ingot Chewer.
—You're right that, in a given seven-card hand, hitting more than one Chalice or Thorn isn't very likely. The problem is that they get mulligans, same as we do, and more than one lock-piece is so hard for us to beat that they're pretty likely to go to 5 in order to find them. If they board in Trinisphere, their odds are pretty good.
—I can understand the argument that we need to be careful not to spend too many slots on hate for any one deck, but I don't see why we should treat this deck as anything but a Miracles-level threat, or maybe even a bigger one. If we're bringing in 5-6 cards for Miracles, it stands to reason that we probably want a bigger number of threats than we'd bring in against decks that aren't as big a problem. Even though Eldrazi's a faster deck (making it dangerous to run too many cards that dilute our combo), we really, really need answers to their hate, and relying on one-mana discard won't cut it if they draw any number of Chalices in their opener. Personally, I've got dead space in my sideboard (maybe because my meta's pretty small). A lot of our other sideboard options didn't really do much for us anyway, in my testing, so I've had a few flex spots for a while that I'm now filling with Recall effects. It's worth pointing out, incidentally, that nevilshute's point about AdN is important: we don't want too many high-costed cards, so I'm probably only running 1-2 Rebuilds (alongside 1-2 Hurkyl's) rather than more Rebuilds, even if they're our best out against multiple lock pieces. Losing 3 off Ad Nauseam for something that isn't business kills.
I mean Miracles, Eldrazi, and Death & Taxes are probably our major game one bad matchups. Ignoring other decks for sideboard construction doesn't seem too insane to me. I'm on something like:
1-2 Xantid Swarm
0-1 Sphinx of the Final Word
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3-4 Abrupt Decay
0-1 Krosan Grip
3 Dread of Night
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Pithing Needle/graveyard hate/Flusterstorm
assuming Empty isn't the main. I don't think it makes sense to board stuff in for Delver, for instance. That matchup is already pretty good. I agree that Eldrazi needs to be treated like a Miracles-level threat.
What I meant by "doesn't hit" - Ingot is a turn 1 response. Any good hand with a t2/3/4 response risks losing it to a t2 TKS.
I don't know how realistic it is to think that we can ever beat turn 1 Chalice into turn 2 TKS on the play in any circumstances.
So far in my testing I've been able to keep a positive win record against them when I'm on the play, and that's all I can ask for. Having a discard spell turn 1 followed by a turn 2 or 3 kill is what I'm aiming for in the matchup. I'm also playing 4 Duress, because you can't afford to get the 50/50 Therapy on Thorn/Chalice wrong on turn 1. Thinking about playing Thoughtseizes main now, because they don't force me to guess turn 1 and they also hit TKS when needed. Potentially EtW main over AN then. Still have some testing to do, but honestly the matchup will probably never be good for us. The metagame seems pretty hostile right now, and in the back of my head I'm a tiny bit worried about the soon-to-be-released Invasive Surgery.
Are you keeping discard in against them, or are you just talking about pre-board?
Mostly pre-board, and I often go back to discard when I'm back on the play game 3. Discard is horrible on the draw most of the time, but on the play it's often good. Snagging their turn 1 lock piece is better than having to Decay it a turn later.
EDIT: Playing one EtW main might be a good idea right now anyway, I recently watched someone fold twice when TKS took his randomly drawn Tendrils. It's so stupid that this thing also has to exile things on top of being a 4/4 Thoughtseize for 2.
Maindeck Empty is okay to good versus anything without Stoneforge Mystic. I think it makes sense right now.
I don't think this is anything to be worried about. It is basically just as playable as Envelop - I don't see the Delirium effect suddenly making Envelop a universally-played card, and even if it does get played more, it's just another counterspell that we need to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Is Teferi's Realm good yet?
When just considering Chalice it seems decent, even though UU is an issue potentially. But in the face of sphere/thorn effects it seems untenable.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
I'm having good experiences running 2/1 Hurkyl's Recall / Echoing Truth vs Eldrazi
I agree. What's more is most current decks that would be interested in running this effect will have an issue getting delirious (:wink:). Getting a land, instant and sorcery into their own yard is almost a given but what about the 4th card type? They will likely have to bank on us discarding a deathrite or Liliana from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I mean don't get me wrong, it's obviously a strict upgrade on Envelop (rest in peace foil Envelop, I hardly knew yee), so any deck that wanted Envelop is going to run this instead. But yeah I don't see this doing much against us. A lands player from my LGS is sweating over this though.
Street wrathQuote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Street Wraith is super played in legacy, agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
That's true, I guess decks like Miracles can't realistically get to Delirium.. The most likely suspects would probably be decks with Liliana or red based Delver decks, especially Grixis Delver, which can sac their dudes to Therapies and/or zap a redundant creature with a Bolt if needed. Killing your own dudes never sounds appealing, but if you're able to counter+extract something like a Show and Tell, Loam or Infernal Tutor for U, it's totally worth it.
Teferi's realm could actually be sweet against versions of Eldrazi and MUD that mostly rely on Chalice and 3sphere, but against normal sphere effects it's pretty bad.
Geez, cutting four cards that get rid of Counterbalance and three that get rid of Chalice for three Teferi's Realms sure opens up a lot of slots. Probably can't beat a Thorn or a Lodestone Golem ever, though.
So I'm finalizing my sideboard and in testing I've honestly been pretty underwhelmed by Carpet of Flowers. Anyone have a good suggestion on what I can run instead of them? It just seems like I rarely get more than 1 mana off of it.
I haven't run Carpet of Flowers or Xantid Swarm in some time. I'm thinking of bringing back a couple of Swarms because someone's started to play Show and Tell in my metagame, but I'm not sold on making cuts for either card. I haven't noticed an increased problem with counterspells without Xantid Swarm. The same is true for Carpet, but I feel like there's a stronger case for bringing in Carpet in a number of matchups. One of its major advantages is that it can produce a boatload of mana (esp. in multiples) when the opponent has Rest in Peace, a card that makes Cabal Ritual and Dark Petition useless. I've never been in such a situation, but I'm sure it's a real thing. Just seems to me like we've got problems that'll show up more frequently and that are worth more sideboard space, even against the same decks that run RiP.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbousm
Not sure that any two suggestions for what to run instead will be the same, but here's what I'm running at the moment:
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Disfigure
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Dark Petition
1x Krosan Grip
1x Tropical Island
1x Rebuild
1x ????? (usually Massacre, SDT, or a third Duress; lately, probably Rebuild #2)
(N.B.: Maindeck, I'm running 14 lands, I just switched out Preordain #2 with Sensei's Top, and I'm running nine rituals, six discards, and singletons of every piece of business except Grim Tutor [incl. Empty AND AdN].)
Everything green comes in against Miracles (incl. Trop). Everything with cmc 1 (sans Duress) comes in against Maverick and Delver, or anything else with Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist. Same goes for Elves, Gobbos, and D&T, but almost definitely with Massacre added. The Rebuild/Recall effects are for Eldrazi (or, I guess, other Chalice decks), and I'd probably run the Tropical to up my land count in the matchup and allow for added Abrupt Decays if necessary. The extra Dark Petition (I had 2 in my main until this week) is for matchups in which we don't want or need Empty, or matchups in which Empty's likely to just get us killed. Examples include Elves, Goblins, Batterskull.dec.
Hope this helps! Anyone have suggestions?
P.S., regarding Teferi's Realm, Invasive Surgery, and Street Wraith:
—Teferi's Realm looks pretty good, but (like Rebuild) it gets totally trashed by Thorn. Also, Realm absolutely can sabotage Empty the Warrens.
—Invasive Surgery certainly looks like it's got a whole lot of potential, but I don't think it's a big threat. Why would a deck with access to Flusterstorm, Daze, Force, and/or Stifle want to run Surgery? How many blue decks do we need to worry about that would run Envelop, and how big a threat are they? Why would a deck typically without blue splice in this one blue card when Mindbreak Trap is available? Don't get me wrong: getting all our Tutors taken is likely to kill us all, but the card feels really narrow and probably not strong enough.
—Street Wraith is pretty definitionally a one-trick pony for us. And we're not the only ones who have this problem. I don't think it's worth our concern, at least at this point.
[EDIT: Note to self: don't type long, incoherent posts when you're really tired. I guess the question regarding Surgery is one of whether it's likely to do more damage to us than any number of other options an opponent can field. It's obviously better than Envelop, but was Envelop really all that great against us to begin with? Strikes me that, though Surgery's pretty much Extraction tacked onto Envelop, there are a lot of other threats that seem easier to throw at us and comparably devastating if the opponent has a clock. And Surgery's just as easy for us to stop as any other countermagic if we find it off of a Probe or a Duress early on.]
Did anyone from this thread play in Prague 2016?