[DTB] Vial Goblins

I am back to Goblins and back to the "Matron Toolbox" build. No matter what others seem to recommend, I am just not a fan of Warren Instigator, Goblin Chieftain, Rishadan Port, or splashing a second color. I guess they just do not match my playstyle.

I do, however, like maindeck Blood Moon. Especially with the increase of Lands.dec around me...but I can not bring myself to do that either. They have replaced Price of Progress in my Sideboard though.

I am not going to post my list again. The last thing this thread needs is more pages and pages of people blasting one-anothers card slot choices. With differing metagames, differing playstyles, & even differing strategies, it's really awkward to tell someone that one thing is more optimal than another, for the most part. Granted, it does have a limit. No one is trying to splash blue for Dreadnaught/Stifle in Goblins. But if someone wants to splash black, white or green, or play with Instigators and Chieftains with more creature control in the form of Incinerators/Scourgers/Weirding, then more power to them. Or even the whole Chrome Mox thing. If it's working for someone, and not just theory, then more power to him/her. It's just really hard for me to continually tinker with what is working for me. Why try to fix something that is not broken?

Besides, this is the internet, where everyone is anonymous. No one is going to back down from a random stranger online telling them that they or their card choices are bad anyway.

I really just wanted to say that I am happy that the metagame has shifted enough to where I feel comfortable with goblins again. There for awhile, it was just not an option for me anymore.

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Originally Posted by P.S.

I am not going to post my list again. The last thing this thread needs is more pages and pages of people blasting one-anothers card slot choices. With differing metagames, differing playstyles, & even differing strategies, it's really awkward to tell someone that one thing is more optimal than another, for the most part. Granted, it does have a limit. No one is trying to splash blue for Dreadnaught/Stifle in Goblins. But if someone wants to splash black, white or green, or play with Instigators and Chieftains with more creature control in the form of Incinerators/Scourgers/Weirding, then more power to them. Or even the whole Chrome Mox thing. If it's working for someone, and not just theory, then more power to him/her. It's just really hard for me to continually tinker with what is working for me. Why try to fix something that is not broken?

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Very well said. Like I mentioned on the last page, card choices and deck construction are fluid processes, and we can't look at it in a black and white way. Any suggestions I or others make should be taken with a grain of salt. However, like you said, there is a limit to ideas. I believe chrome mox crosses this boundary just like the blue splash does. And I'm not saying this out of a simple judgment of chrome mox. People used to play it in the deck, and consensus testing showed it was bad. Though that was a long time ago, chrome mox was dismissed because it is fundamentally flawed in goblins, not because of that past metagame.

Please remember this, however. Your decklist will never, ever be perfect. You shouldl always be in a constant state of modification. Why? Because you don't know if it is not "broken" or if it is. It is impossible to measure that your decklist is perfect. Example, just because you won a tournament playing 2 md chieftains does not mean that was the correct number of chieftains to play. You should always try to adapt, try to innovate, and try to look at it from a different perspective.

I agree. I always test things, even if they don't work out in the end. I don't want to dismiss something completely without at least giving it a whirl. My deck is ever-evolving but I don't scrap it all and start from scratch whenever a new set comes out or whatever. You know?

I am still a fan of playing one or two "tech" cards. I have said it earlier in the thread too but I am a big fan of sitting down at a tournament and my opponent not knowing my starting 60 based off of my first turn. So, I still usually play a trick or two. Most people, when using the "optimal build" argument automatically dismiss those one or two slots and autochange them to something more streamline. I honestly believe that hurts me more than helps me. A mainboard Goblin King has won me games. Same for Final Fortune (that no one ever sees coming). Yes, arguments can be made against both...but that's missing the point.

Lately I have testing Lightning Crafter, amongst a few other cards and despite not being bad, I was never that impressed with any of them to change my deck around permanently.

I'm kind of curious to know your reason for disliking instigator and chieftan. I ask because for me, those two guys have been really great, to the point where I'm probably going to start running chieftans as a playset. (I'd never go above 2 instigators)

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I'm glad you could come into the goblins thread, defy all the testing done by a bunch of other players, and end by telling us we are all wrong.

Deckbuilding is not so black and white. Card choices are not so black and white. It changes, decklists are fluid, not some stable concoction that you should be running the same everytime. Even the most stable of decklists like tempo thresh experiences fluxes based on metagame choices (particularly within the sideboard).

Here is what it sounds like TO ME. I'm not going to barge into random threads and tell people they are all wrong, but this is how I personally see it. You are trying to make goblins the most aggro deck in the format. The fact that you are fetching for turn 2 warchiefs is disturbing. Goblins isn't about measured speed, it is about sprinting. It sounds like you are suffering from the noninteractive player problem. I know you have played ichorid in the past. I know you are the guy who ran FOW in the sideboard, I remember source names well. With ichorid, such noninteractivity is okay.

But goblins is all about interaction. Instead of thinking "t2 matron or t4 siege-gang commander, do you see why chrome mox is good now?" you should be thinking "how can I best win this game between me and this other player?"

They printed this new card by the way, it's called Warren Instigator. It's the two drop you are looking for. It forces your opponent to stay in answer mode. Along with goblin piledriver, we have anywhere from 5-8 2cc drops. That's enough to consistently apply pressure. While curving out can be great for goblins (and is the easiest way to win), it is definitely not necessary, depending on the matchup.

I would have to do an extensive analysis to shy you away from chrome mox. I'm not a math major, so I'll never turn you away from chrome mox. But people have tested chrome mox in a variety of legacy decks (including goblins), and every deck but combo has dropped them. I would be very wary of a card that has shown no success in any aggro decks throughout legacy.

No, lotus petal is not worth considering. Lotus petal sucks. How has this thread come to this? This is sad. Chrome mox and lotus petal are horrible. I'm all for ideas, but if I was playing against a goblins player who led with a lotus petal, I'd honestly have to hold back laughter and be glad I got a bye. Goblins is NOT a combo deck!! Maybe at one point, it was capable of t1 lackey t2 nuts t3 nuts, but not anymore. The nature of lotus petal and chrome mox leans towarsd combo. AKA not goblins.

You're thinking about it all wrong with the weak creatures as well. Instead of trying to fix it with chieftain, you should try to make it so it is not a problem. This slightly depends on personal playstyle. But Chieftain will never fix the problem. Chieftain is there because he gives haste, first and foremost. And haste gives the deck that "sprinting" feel. We are an anaerobic deck, we are the definition of it. Zoo is an aerobic deck. Turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 pridemage, turn 3 removal + goyf, turn 4 KotR. That makes zoo players splooge. The +1/+1 is actually more useful against decks without many creatures, because it accelerates your clock. Creatureless decks tend to have more answers (well of course), so we need to kill them faster before they can draw them. Chieftain helps this.

I realize my thoughts are scattered. Yes, I'm not the best at arguing my points. I have a hard time putting these abstract philosophies into words. But I can tell you that basic magic theory goes against playing chrome mox in a legacy aggro deck, and that is supported by about three kajillion proven decklists.

But to sum it up, I'll basically just trying to say that you should try thinking of goblins as a sprinting aggro deck, not as a fast aggro deck. The pressure comes in spurts, but the pressure comes so suddenly that it forces opponents to prepare for the pressure before it even happens. Along with being able to adapt to a control role when necessary, that is what makes goblins special, and why it is still in the DtB forum.

However, I'm all for innovation, and appreciate that you are trying to change things. Don't get me wrong, all this thread activity is very exciting. But I disagree with the moves you are making. I'm also curious to hear what cards specifically you talk about when saying the deck needs a "sideboard overhaul," considering that legacy sideboards are so varied and hard to put down that you are asking for an overhaul of a sideboard that has no definite existence.

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Apparently you missed all my posts previous to the one defending chrome mox. I say this because you mention Warren Instigator, of which the deck list I posted contained 3 of (which was also being questioned by the people questioning chrome mox).

I really don't understand the black and white comment, concidering I was debating someone who was arguing that you should also play 4 chrome mox or none. I purposefully stated the current metagame. What I mean by that is the metagame that has emerged from SSG's 5ks. I would not suggest my list for a small local event, unless it matched that metagame. When there was lost tempo and combo decks in the format Goblins could run with a ton of three drops and no excelleration, but I don't think that is correct now (as opposed to always as you seem to thing I mean).

By sideboard overhaul I was refering to the deck I posted, which the s/b probably isn't as good as the main deck.

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Originally Posted by alphastorm

Chrome mox debate:

Please don't tell me card advantage doesn't matter. You're just cutting yourself short. So that means they have a starting hand of seven cards to your six. Theoretically speaking, everyone of your cards besides lands should be a threat. So now you have minus one threat. This is an aggro deck first. Chrome mox is not a threat. It shouldn't even be considered. For those who wants to argue what about vial not being a threat, well it's just too good against control. And control is too good in legacy right now. But I do side out vial against other aggro decks.

If you have such as easy time finding the right cards to remove in your opening hand then 1. it's a hand that should have been mulliganed or 2. You shouldn't be playing those cards.

If you want to speed up your deck, there are otherways. Examples are Frogtosser Banneret and goblin warchief. Even simian spirit guide has a potential to swing for 2.

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I'm not saying card advantage doesn't matter. I'm saying goblins has so much CA it can lose a little to add some speed. I'm not making goblins and all out aggro deck. I'm just adding 3 moxes, and using mogg war marshal instead of Gempalm.

The thing is, so many people have been questioning my choices without testing my lists. I've tested many rencent top 8 lists, mono red and Rg. Give my list a try.

When I post a list it's because I'm having success with it.

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Originally Posted by Zythe

I'm kind of curious to know your reason for disliking instigator and chieftan.

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Warren Instigator is basically because in a lot of match-ups (like Zoo), the board position makes it so that it's just an expensive 1/1. To force him through would require a lot more critter control, which I do not want to include. Also the inclusion of Instigator usually leads to more high-end gobbos, like increasing the number of Siege-Gang Commanders, playing a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or whatever. In fact, if I am on the draw, a lot of the time in aggro match-ups, I find myself Sideboarding out Goblin Lackey. The last thing I want is Lackey 5-8 in those matches too.

Goblin Chieftain is just that my 3cc is clogged up to begin with. Plus, what makes Warchief so good is the reduction of cost, not the Haste. I think people overvalue the Haste aspect a little too much and it makes them think Chieftain is better than he is. I run a single Goblin King mainboard because I find the Mountainwalk more beneficial than the additional Haste. Chieftain is also not Warchief 5-8 and he does not provide for me what I am wanting from that slot. Being able to make Piledrivers have Haste with more efficiency is great but, again, the Red Zone is usually clogged up with critters in Legacy right now and Piledriver is just going to get blocked by their worst guy anyway. Yes, the argument that you can "sneak" a Piledriver with Haste in there comes up sometimes but from my testing, I have never wanted (or needed) the Chieftain. Not to mention my number of Piledrivers is fluctuating a lot lately (some what due to the decrease in Merfolk as well). I have tested Chieftain a lot. I know he is a staple to a lot of people nowadays. I just personally find him unneeded.

I agree with you about instigators in the zoo matchup. I usually side those out against zoo as well. I keep the lackeys in though because on turn 1 it's still a must-answer and usually they will play removal on it instead of playing a dude for fear of turn 2 scourger/weirding. Them not playing a guy on turn 1 is a pretty good tempo boost, and I've found that this (in my opinion horrific) matchup it's all about gaining tempo on them. Their guys are just way better than ours and cost a lot less, so we constantly have to keep putting more dudes on the table than they can.

This is also the reason I like chieftan so much. To be honest, in this matchup I like his +1/+1 much more than his haste ability, since more often than not my guys are gona be blocking anyway. This matchup is so bad for me that I even considered running some number of mad aunties main (I play the Rb version). But the more I think about it, the more this seems like a horrible idea. I suppose I should actually test it first though.

It's awesome that you just reminded me about Goblin King. He's probably insane against zoo. I'll have to test it. =)

Also, I'm curious how many maindeck removal (be it scourger, gempalm, weirding, etc) slots you guys run. I've been finding myself dedicating less and less slots to it as the number of other goblins I want to run increases. The toolbox-ness of matrons just tempts me to dedicate a lot less slots to removal than I probably should.

If you have a decent amount if zoo in your meta - is it worth it to have a maindeck tutortarget in Mogg War Marshall to tutor for against zoo with goblin matron? Or do you really just want to tutor up Goblin ringleader or removal instead? What are you thoughts on this?

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Originally Posted by P.S.

Goblin Chieftain is just that my 3cc is clogged up to begin with. Plus, what makes Warchief so good is the reduction of cost, not the Haste. I think people overvalue the Haste aspect a little too much and it makes them think Chieftain is better than he is. I run a single Goblin King mainboard because I find the Mountainwalk more beneficial than the additional Haste..

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The best part about RB IMO is the option to play Frogtosser. He smooths out the curve amazingly; I don't run Warchiefs at all because I have a playset of Bannerets. I don't know why I didn't consider the Mountainwalk before; I'm going to remove a Chieftan for a King for tech against Zoo, the mirror, and anyone else who runs Mountains.

I've been trying to play test against as many decks as possible, and some surprisingly difficult match-ups I ran into last night were dredge and aggro loam. Dredge seemed to just depend on whether or not I drew hate. Aggro loam stomped over me. Any advice on these two? I found incinerating my own guys was one way to slow dredge down.

Also, after last night my sideboard is looking like this:

4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish

Thats 6 grave hate, 6 combo hate, and with 4 maindeck warren weirding, 7 Progentitus hate. This is for a meta expected to have a LOT of probant/countertop, dredge, merfolk, and a decent amount combo.

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Originally Posted by Zythe

I'm kind of curious to know your reason for disliking instigator and chieftan. I ask because for me, those two guys have been really great, to the point where I'm probably going to start running chieftans as a playset. (I'd never go above 2 instigators)

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Instigator isnt that amazing unless you are facing slower control decks all day. It tandem instigator/chieftain is just nutty, but as you said I personally would not run more than 2 instigator since he doesnt do enough "on his own" to warrant 3-4 copies. I currently am running 3 chieftain/2 instigator/3 SCG and have done well with that mix. I was only running 2 piledrivers at my last tournament and I never had a problem putting games away. Im testing a list with 4 piledrivers again, but I think I will be dropping back to 2 so I can put in 2 war marshalls since he is amazing in the aggro matchup.

In most cases when I go into g2/3 my first 3 cards I take out are instigator x2 and 1 SCG. That doesnt effect the maindeck's consistency at all

I actually think instigators play a really important role for goblins, and I wouldn't play any less than 2, even if i wouldn't run more than 2 either. They are a 2-drop, which is something that this deck is short on and they provide such a huge tempo boost because they are a card that they must deal with. My favorite play would probably have to be turn 1 vial, followed by turn 2 instigator + EOT vial in lackey, which happens a fair amount of the time. Even without the vial, turn 1 lackey into turn 2 instigator is a pretty tempo oriented play that forces your opponent to find an answer to. It doesn't even matter if instigator connects or not, (although I find it almost impossible to lose when he does) just the presence of him makes your opponent go into defensive mode, which is what we want.

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Originally Posted by Zythe

I actually think instigators play a really important role for goblins, and I wouldn't play any less than 2, even if i wouldn't run more than 2 either. They are a 2-drop, which is something that this deck is short on and they provide such a huge tempo boost because they are a card that they must deal with. My favorite play would probably have to be turn 1 vial, followed by turn 2 instigator + EOT vial in lackey, which happens a fair amount of the time. Even without the vial, turn 1 lackey into turn 2 instigator is a pretty tempo oriented play that forces your opponent to find an answer to. It doesn't even matter if instigator connects or not, (although I find it almost impossible to lose when he does) just the presence of him makes your opponent go into defensive mode, which is what we want.

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I did a ton of playtesting without the 2 instigators over the past few weeks and just felt that the instigators were too good not to run. Although since I run port it puts more of a strain on my manabase to cast them, I like having the 2 of them in my deck since it allows me to run 3 SCG which is a huge card in my meta now. Only running 2 piledrivers so I can run 2 mogg war marshall is feeling really nice at the moment. I cant bring myself to drop port, so I have my land count at 22 and only run 3 chieftain.

This is my new list, by cmc:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Skirk Prospector

4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Wasteland
18 Mountain

-sb-
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Anarchy
1 Goblin Tinkerer

I'm quite fond of the prospectors, which allow for more consistent opening hands, turn 2 warchief/chieftain/magus. They also greatly speed the deck up midgame or with a warchief in play, often allowing me to kill my opponent this turn instead of next turn. I also added a sharpshooter and 3 sideboard anarchies as last tournament all the matches I lost were to Moat for which I had no answer besides siege-gang. War marshals i did not include because you can usually dish out 7-8 damage with a prospector/sharpshooter late game even without marshals, although they are obviously very good vs aggro decks. I ran a single instigator last tournament but i was very unimpressed by it. It just doesn't have the speed of a lackey and by turn 3 there is almost always a blocker.

Since you're running Skirk Prospector, have you ever tried using the 'Goblin Combo'?

Its basically Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker, Lightning Crafter and a sac outlet (Skirk Prospector). The combo is essentially your back up if pure aggro just wont work.

Is there any data or commentary anyone can provide on efficiency of R/b vs R/g vs mono-R in a blind meta? I'm leaning towards G splash, since a maindeck Tin Street Hooly usually has a target, and I've got the options for them all, but not sure what I should play. Aside from my friend coming with me playing Dredge, I don't know what the meta at a small upcoming tourney will be.

Any thought on how one might fare?

I've generally stuck with 24 lands in my mono-R build; 16 Mountain, 4 Wasteland, 4 Ports. I see a lot of lists dipping into 22-23 territory. How comfortable are you guys with doing that?

As someone mentioned before, Tuktuk Scrapper seems to be a good card that could be a better choice than Tin Street in a non-green build. It gives you artifact destruction that's not awful with Warchief, and if you splash black, he can draw benefit from Frogtossers too. It might change your playstyle, but it serves a similar purpose albeit in a potentially more powerful way.

It still amazes me how many garbage lists appear on this thread running subpar goblins with subpar reasoning behind them, that run 0-2 Warren Instigators on grounds that "I don't like them" or "They don't suit my playstyle." This is nothing more than an unwarranted resistance to change.

Warren Instigator is ungodly amazing. For two red, you get a guy who strikes fear into the hearts of the masses. If he gets removed, he gets removed. Big deal. If he hits, he breaks games open. If he doesn't hit, you force the opponent to play defensive against a deck with a fantastic long game.

I've been running 4 Instigators for quite awhile now and wouldn't change this for the world.

I'll agree Chieftain's overrated. I'll agree that most everything that's come along for Goblins in the last year's overrated. But Instigator's a monster. If he doesn't match your playstyle? Change your playstyle. Learn to play with him.