Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Well, I played in the Legacy Challenge on Magic Online. Results updated into my Storm Spreadsheet.
Decklist.
1-2 Shardless
2-1 Merfolk
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Explorer 12 Post
2-1 Merfolk
0-2 Team America
0-2 Infect
Most of my games were rather uninteresting and you can get all the relevant info from the spreadsheet, but here's a few scenarios:
R1G2 my opponent has two draws to find Force, hits and I lose because they also have Deathrite and I'm all-in on Infernal.
R2G1 my opponent has no Spells after my turn two, but I still lose because I never find any business spells.
R3G1 I have to sweat my opponent's draw step because I misclick when paying for their Daze and don't have any more black mana for the turn.
R4G2 my opponent has 2 Warping Wail, which is certainly an annoying card because it's a counterspell for non-blue that's actually playable (looking at you, Mindbreak Trap).
R5G2 I Duress my opponent and they have Flusterstorm and Arcane Laboratory. They don't have a third land and I don't have another discard spell nor cantrip, so I take Flusterstorm, they draw land, I lose.
R6G1 I never draw a single ritual, but I'm floating Infernal, Petition, Ad Nauseam & Past in Flames through my hand and library without having the mana to cast any of them.
R6G2 I accidentally play a Lotus Petal I don't mean to play before my combo turn and lose because I don't make enough Goblins.
R7G1 my opponent keeps a very questionable hand on the play but draws pump spells in both their draw steps to kill me on turn three.
R7G2 I have Infernal Tutor, Past in Flames and four rituals, but no red mana or discard spell to get rid of the Past in Flames.
Storm is definitely strong, but you're mostly playing the odds right now, which is way less fun than navigating through walls of countermagic.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Hey guys. I've just recently built storm (played maverick for a while but wanted something different). Here is the list I have built:
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded STrand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Preordain
1 Dark Petition
Side
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Disfigure
1 Empty the Warrens
1 ????
Thoughts? Went 2-1 at my local shop Thursday (first time I've played it).
Match 1 Burn:
Game 1: Had a pretty good opening for burn. Opponent opted for the swiftspear into bolt on turn 2. I git probe and find eidolon which I promptly therapy on my turn 2. Found what I needed and went off turn 4 facing lethal next turn.
Game 2: sideboard into empty (saw a plateau so I was fearful of leyline). Never saw it and died to what burn does best.
Game 3: Bring back in tendrils (leave out AN). Spent a lot of time doing math and figured out the line to make it work exactly on turn 3 with IT -> PiF.
1 - 0
Match 2 (4C delver):
I know these guys pretty well and I always put him on some sort of delver. Never sure which variant it will be though
Game 1: Got hymned on turn 2 (losing IT and LED). I was planning to go off on my turn. TNN next turn hits me a few times before I find what I need off AN. Although I did go to 4 while he was holding bolt.
Game 2: I had a turn 1 kill (even through FoW) but get turn 1 thoughtseized (taking IT). I naturally draw IT 2 turns later. I git probe seeing FoW + ponder. He plays revoker naming LED (2 in hand). A few turns of draw go later and I decided to try to go off (he has 2 unknown + FoW and ponder I still know about). I cast DR. He decides not to force it. I therapy and he again decides not to force. Of course I name force and turns over another force I didn't know about. Coast is clear and I proceed to go off through PiF.
2 - 0
Match 3 (Aggro Loam)
I know this will be a rough match.
Game 1: Turn 1 therapy naming chalice misses. Turn 2 sees land -> mox into GSZ for teeg. No answers mainboard and I scope it up.
Game 2: We both mull to 6 (no therapy or durress). I look at a hand with empty in it but only a way to make 8 goblins I think. I decided to ponder and pass. He plays turn 1 land + mox + chalice on 1 (should've made the goblins). I attempt to brainstorm next turn to keep him honest. He catches it. I see a canonist on turn 2. Great. Naturally draw Hurkyl's (US got wasted) so I have no blue except for lotus petal. I play petal, and recall off 1 land and petal. but cant get anything going. I die a few turns later to dual knights.
2-1
Overall had a good time. Learned a lot. This is the first time I've ever played a live opponent. Been goldfishing a lot to learn the basics. I'm still looking for help on sideboarding plans. It was kind of hit or miss. Should I always board into empty game 2? My meta has 3-4 regulars who play chalice.dec. Not many miarcles players though. Thanks for the help.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jdc5011
Should I always board into empty game 2? My meta has 3-4 regulars who play chalice.dec. Not many miarcles players though. Thanks for the help.
Empty is really good against decks that don't handle a lot of creatures well. Burn, Pox, Eldrazi, Delver variants, Shardless, Maverick, and sometimes Miracles and other Chalice decks are all good choices for running Empty.
With that having been said, there are three types of decks against which it's really bad: decks with loads of fast creatures, decks with direct counters to loads of fast creatures, and decks that either run Empty themselves or combo out more quickly than Goblins can kill them (N.B.: there's some crossover between these categories).
At first, Empty looks a bit like a panacea because we don't need to build up as much storm or mana to use it as we would need to build for Tendrils. But there's so much hate that just wrecks it (Batterskull, Tabernacle, Pyroclasm, Terminus, Staticaster, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives) that we should only use it as a curveball kill-con against decks that aren't prepared. It's a very one-dimensional plan of attack, and there's hate for it that can fit in pretty much any deck, from Engineered Plague or Illness in the Ranks in Pox to Golgari Charm in Chalice.dec. We can sac gobbos to Therapy out threats we can assume are looming (against Miracles, name Brainstorm, not Terminus), but that doesn't always work and we don't always draw Therapy with Empty.
The principal difference between Empty the Warrens and Tendrils of Agony is that, though you may win off of a storm of only 5 or 6 with Empty, the card becomes progressively worse and easier to answer as the game goes on; Tendrils gets better and better. If it's turn 3 and you haven't assembled the gobbos, it's probably too late to use them. I think people overstate the odds that Tendrils will get a cleaner kill, but keep in mind that it's often safer to wait a turn to put the Drils to our opponent than it is to pass the turn with a bunch of 1/1s.
Whatever you do, don't ever, ever play Empty against fast combo, Stoneblade, Lands, Jund, or Elves, and you should probably not run it against Goblins or Dredge. You can probably get in under a Terminus against Miracles, but these other decks just outpace the goblins so quickly (or are so packed with board wipes/Batterskull/Goblin Machine Gun) that you're asking to lose if you run the Empty instead of an extra tutor/Past in Flames/Tendrils.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScottW
Did anyone from this thread play in Prague 2016?
Me, only bad beats stories for the Main event...
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
@Sloshthedark: did you play your usual maindeck? Any change for the future?
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScottW
Did anyone from this thread play in Prague 2016?
Yes, tough luck regarding MUs and draws. Some nice plays, some mediocre but could have been way better...
Only 4x ANT for the main event.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaman
@Sloshthedark: did you play your usual maindeck? Any change for the future?
Yes, most likely not in the MD ...failed to register Confidants, both Fr+Sa were very UBx/x heavy, nearly no Miracles but I did not feel confident with the tech and backed off literarily in the last second
R1 lost to Shardless, he had T2 Hymn+Extraction (obv. 1of) both postboard games which left me with basicaly nothing
R3 lost to myself because I'm an idiot and let a Lands (w Entomb and Liliana) guy cast T2 Trinisphere for 3 mana with Sphere in play, I had a AD in hand, also plenty of action, he stayed on 3 lands for a while but I've never drawn a 3rd land to cast anything, G3 I had a decent mana heavy mull 6, cantrips whiffed, so simply playing out 4 lands was enough for him.. = out by R3... I have realized the 3ball mistake only after I was describing my loss to a friend... loss deserved
R4 got a solid 2008 pairing, Angel Stompy... guy had a T1 3drop available all 3 games, I won the roll and discarded 3Ball, Baneslayer, Moat, Propaganda Angel and won with EtW+ToA... G2 - he had T1 3ball, T2 Mindcensor, T3 Mindcensor... G3, T1 Mindcensor and I never hit a land on top 4... and that was it...
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
this weekend played a 7 round tournament + top8 (only me was playing ANT ) i get 5-1-1 with ID in the last round for top 8 but lost to miracles in quarters (great game btw)
the matchups were:
2-0 vs rogue
0-2 vs Team america
2-1 vs zoo
2-0 vs tin fins
2-0 vs bug delver
2-0 vs miracles
ID
top 8 :
1-2 vs miracles
my list is pretty standart with 1 PIF, 1 Dark petition, 1 ad nauseum, 1 top, 1 preordain, 1 tendrills , 1 rain of filth
i can do a more extended content about the mathchups if i get more time.
The meta was infested with BUG (shardless, team america and delver) , top 8 was : 1 miracles, 1 lands, 1 ANT, 3 bug delver, 2 team america.
4 eldrazi decks show up but non with great results.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ancestral
3 bug delver, 2 team america.
Congratulations.
Pretty diverse matchups.
I guess you mean shardless bug (bug control) because bug delver = TA.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Playing with this list currently:
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Preordain
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox
4x Infernal Tutor
2x Past in Flames
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Dread of Night
3x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Xantid Swarm
I've played a few leagues with this setup and am really liking it. Finally found a setup where I'm comfortable with having both Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens in the main. Occasionally I miss the 2nd Tendrils in the main, but I'm able to revert fully into a grinding station'esque approach against Miracles after board and am so far doing quite well in that department.
3x Hurkyl's Recall is obviously a concession to Eldrazi. So far I'm 4-4 against Eldrazi... it still feels like an uphill climb, but 3x hurkyl definitely helps and I'm okay with it.
Here are the videos from my lates league. Faced 2x Miracles, stoneblade, omni and sneak:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...QtuyXvhoirLn53
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Nice looking list Martin,
Been working on a similar list to work in AdN in main.
Quick question regarding the manabase though?
Do you think the fetchland config is the optimal?
I mean, I think I would shuffle up the non-delta ones for more access to Swamp T1.
Really missed having better access to turn 1 discard on a manalight hand.
I have found that having a mix helps your odds of landing both basics in MUs where that matters.
Like 2x mire, 2x tarn, 4xdelta or the likes of this, maybe a 3/1 split if you feel the need for Island is great than swamp T1.
Look forward to your vids mate :-)
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jedi_gof
Nice looking list Martin,
Been working on a similar list to work in AdN in main.
Quick question regarding the manabase though?
Do you think the fetchland config is the optimal?
I mean, I think I would shuffle up the non-delta ones for more access to Swamp T1.
Really missed having better access to turn 1 discard on a manalight hand.
I have found that having a mix helps your odds of landing both basics in MUs where that matters.
Like 2x mire, 2x tarn, 4xdelta or the likes of this, maybe a 3/1 split if you feel the need for Island is great than swamp T1.
Look forward to your vids mate :-)
Regarding the mana base I'm actually extremely happy with this setup as all my fetchlands allow me to fetch up every land except for the swamp. I've tried running mire and it's not without merit right up until you're sitting with a decay in hand vs Miracles with an Underground Sea in play staring at their counterbalance and just need to draw a way to get to Tropical and then draw the mire. Or when you open a hand of 3 cantrips, some business and one land being mire against a wasteland deck.
If you swap trop for bayou then I'd be more willing to consider bloodstained mire. All in all I think we're discussing very marginal differences and it's really hard to gauge what's actually "best". Mire doesn't let you fetch out basic island which is annoying. Tarn/misty doesn't get swamp which can also be a problem. Both setups can get the job done for sure.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CabalTherapy
Congratulations.
Pretty diverse matchups.
I guess you mean shardless bug (bug control) because bug delver = TA.
Thanks ;)
Well i really mean TA and BUG delver, they play without delvers and without shardless/Vision.
Maybe now its the same na me but i remeber playing against TA before delver exist so i Was Trying to distinguish those 3 BUG v ariants.
Turns out a bit confusing yes but basicly they are 3 bugs variants :)
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nevilshute
Regarding the mana base I'm actually extremely happy with this setup as all my fetchlands allow me to fetch up every land except for the swamp. I've tried running mire and it's not without merit right up until you're sitting with a decay in hand vs Miracles with an Underground Sea in play staring at their counterbalance and just need to draw a way to get to Tropical and then draw the mire. Or when you open a hand of 3 cantrips, some business and one land being mire against a wasteland deck.
If you swap trop for bayou then I'd be more willing to consider bloodstained mire. All in all I think we're discussing very marginal differences and it's really hard to gauge what's actually "best". Mire doesn't let you fetch out basic island which is annoying. Tarn/misty doesn't get swamp which can also be a problem. Both setups can get the job done for sure.
Quick reply, cool man.
Yeah I kinda agree. I just value the option of the swamp too much to have half of my fetches being unable to fecth it. So at least 5 of them for me needs to be able to find the swamp. But as you state, difference is likely marginal but still:-)
I have been playing with a bayou in the board since I picked up the deck again, and it comes in post board often since I have had xantid, decay, carpet in the board, meaning Ive felt it was necessary with 2 green sources.
Cheers
Chris
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nevilshute
About this list, since eldrazi Rise and i pick up the deck again i Always wanted to have all options available MD, but couldnt test enough with ETW and AD nauseum (i m really a fan of ADN, i never played without it in main ) that list seems what i m looking for to test. Gonna see your vídeos and Starting playing some games!
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I really like your list, nevilshute! And I always enjoy watching you videos!
Concerning your new list:
How do you feel about the Chrome Mox ?
my MD is close to yours with AN and Empty , the difference is - 1 PiF - 1 Chrome Mox + 1 Dark Petition + 1 Rain of Filth . I wonder if the Mox as another initial MS is really better than the 5th One-mana-ritual in supporting AN. I would love to run both, maybe I should just cut a land for the mox and go down to 14 lands - after all many people seem to do well with 14 lands right now and I wouldnt even reduce the number of permanent manasources by doing this.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I've been running 1 Chrome Mox for almost a year now and I haven't looked back. I only run 14 lands, though.
I like that you're onyl running one Island too, so many lists I see nowadays run 2. I never understood that at all, I have seen far more Storm players lose because they naturally drew the Island and lacked black mana than I've seen Storm players actively fetch a second Island. This deck splashes blue for 8-10 cards. Post board it's mostly down to like 6. Double Island plus any other land in the deck is often simply not a functional mana base.
I'm also down to 8 cantrips and currently wouldn't go any higher than that. You're boarding down to just 4 Brainstorms against any Chalice or sphere deck anyway. Every cantrip in your hand against those decks is just a mulligan.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Regarding Chrome Mox: it's obviously there to improve odds on AdN though it hasn't really come up since I decided to reconfigure.
It's definitely a card with a low floor but I don't mind it much. It fills a different role to what Rain of Filth does.
Regarding boarding out cantrips vs chalice/sphere decks: I'm definitely not as orthodox about that as you. If you're running Preordains too if consider bringing some or all of those out but I'm not happy about cutting ponders, might shave, two max. On the draw I'd rather shave discard spells. It obviously also depends on how much stuff you're bringing in :smile:
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Fair enough, it's always interesting to see how different people deal with problems differently.
My personal approach against Chalice/Sphere.dec on the draw is saying alright, if they land a turn 1 Chalice I'm in trouble anyway. All discard and cantrips will be dead. But sometimes they'll give me one turn, mostly because they're lacking a way to produce 2 on turn 1, and if they do, I need to make my turn 1 count. Casting a Ponder doesn't cut it there. I'd rather discard their turn 2 play or just attemt to turn 1 them, which my list isn't too bad at because I'm basically boarding into TES with Decays over Ponders.
That approach has problems of course, for example if they drop a sphere instead of a Chalice turn 1. Under a Sphere catrips are definitely much better than discard. My current meta has more 3-spheres and Chalices than spheres though, so I really haven't missed Ponders post board.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Yeah of course they fill different roles in initial mana source vs ritual - but both are also mana sources that improve odds on turn 2+ AN. Thats why I compared them. While Rain is bad Turn 1 / not that good turn 2 , Mox can also support fast Empty combos. But Rain gets better with every land drop and Mox gets worse in the longer games. Im just trying to figure out which one comes with the stronger overall-improvement for the list.
Concerning Cantrips vs Eldrazi: I would board out my one Preordain and maybe one Ponder but not more. We still need them and as nevilshute said discard is often worse otD.
