I agree very much so. Not to mention all of the tricks you can take advantage of with the double strike. He fufills a vital 2cc spot, and is one more thing that they waste their counterspells/swords on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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I agree very much so. Not to mention all of the tricks you can take advantage of with the double strike. He fufills a vital 2cc spot, and is one more thing that they waste their counterspells/swords on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
The reason i don't like instigator:
- he is a turn slower than lackey, which means there will almost always be a blocker for him.
- if he does come through, its already later in the game and it means there are no blockers, no moat/humility/deed/etc and he hasn't got swords to plowshares or burn, in short its a situation when you are going to win anyway, at this point i would much prefer a piledriver/chieftain to end the game quicker.
In other words hes only amazing if you can drop him on turn 1 which requires you to run 4 plus an additional 4 free mana sources (chrome mox/or that spirit that gives R when you remove it), which means giving up 8 scarce deck slots, and even then you still need a stingscourger/gempalm on turn two usually to get him to deal damage to a player.
I would be very interested in your decklist and why you think he's so great.
I disagree with you on your first point. Unless you are playing against Zoo I see no problem in it being blocked early game. Taco is right that it is seen as such a threat that they will always block it. Instigator will either kill that creature and does not die (think Dark Confidant or Silvergill Adept) or it dies but takes away theirs too (think any random merfolk). It also happenend often enough that I killed a Tarmogoyf. So I automatically disagree with your 3rd point. I can see that if you think you have to play Chrome Mox or Simian Spirit Guide you don't like Instigator.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddt15
I agree with your 2nd point though. But the main reason I dislike Instigator that too often I had no relevant goblins in hand to put into play. The other reason is that in MonoR I like to play 4 Ports (and 4 Wasteland). I really hate it when I have a mountain and a nonbasic in hand with an Instigator but have to mulligan because im not sure if I'll draw a 2nd mountain. So I rather play none. But I haven't written Instigator off completely. I'm inclined to put them in Rb or Rg or Rgb lists because in those lists I will not play Rishadan Ports and having 2 red mana turn 2 is more likely to happen. (although wasteland on a dual is a bitch too)
In mono-R I would play some of him without question. In RB Frogtosser instead of Warchief really helps smooth out the curve a lot, so my 2-spot is something likeQuote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
4 Frogtosser
2 War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding
2 Incinerator
2 Piledriver
So I don't really have room for another 2-drop, but maybe in the future I'll try him out. Every card I listed is more useful in both early- and late-game than Instigator, and I feel like for him to be worth it you need to run at least 3, which I don't. I'd much rather have a toolbox of removal options than a guy who just turns sideways. I'd love to run Slavering Nulls as well but he doesn't affect the board when he comes out so it's a little hard to justify him over these choices.
Although I want to try bringing back my old-school Goblin Sligh (hit a couple first turn SGC's back in the day, before Top and Goyf and other shit was even out) and run Instigator next to Reckless Charge to smash with a 4/1 double strike. =D
Again, it doesn't matter if there's almost always a blocker. For the following reasons.
1. We have removal.
2. If they're leaving a blocker, that sometimes means they aren't swinging, which is good in a deck with an amazing long game.
Additionally, the following points should be considered.
1. If you have an untapped Vial at 2 and they haven't seen your hand, they either have to leave a blocker or mana open for removal just for the threat of Instigator. If they -don't-, you can punish them severely.
2. If you have an untapped Vial at 1 and 2 lands down, they have to do the same thing for the fear of Warchief, Vial in Instigator, swing.
(Cupcake for Arebennian)Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Also, list.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Perish
X Pithing Needle, Blood Moon, Goblin Chieftain, depending on metagame.
This is my list. I'll post boarding plans when I have more time.
I have the exact same list except I run 3 chieftain. He is SO good, especially when you do things like put him into play after the first strike on instigator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Your sideboard makes me curious. Do you find 4 Rav trap is effective enough against grave decks? I've found Leyline of the Void much more useful. Especially because its pretty easy to hardcast on turn 4 should they bounce it. Needing it in your opening hand hurts things a little, but this deck is good about catching back up to speed.
For awhile I was running just 4 mindbreak trap for combo, but found it wasn't enough. Ant can just duress/chant you and you lose. I put some thorn of amethyst in to compliment mindbreak trap. Mbt lets me survive until turn two to drop the thorn. Once you do that, they are in serious trouble.
I very much like the list Taco. I'd probably play the same thing RB except -1 Piledriver and +1 Chieftain (mainly as a 1of in the spirit of jitte in zoo, not really as a tutor target). I'm also not really sold on Auntie's Hovel, but the importance of not getting stifled first turn and hitting your first two-three lands can be very important for goblins, so I see it's strength, since your opponent probably isn't going to have time to wasteland you (but might have time to stifle).
I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on why you have picked ravenous trap over other graveyard hate (since it is more narrow but arguably more effective against ichorid), and why you are running a kind of awkward number of combo hate (is mindbreak trap really worth it?).
I'm also in the warren instigator camp. The reason I don't run 4 all the time is because of the manabase. He also allows you to run 3 SGC, which is awesome.
Forgive me if I’m just preaching to the choir, but I don’t think everyone is realizing (maybe myself included) that goblins is undergoing/undergone another transformation. There is a good chance that in today’s diversified meta a playset of instigators is the right move. There is so much resistance to instigator because no one is willing to make the other additional changes to include him. Its like when favre went to Minnesota. They played a lot different this year than before because they adapted to Favre because he was an Improvement to the team. Instigator is like Favre except a lot younger, perhaps gobs needs to be changed to included instigator and what is giving up is worth it because it makes the deck better. I'm currently running two instigator cause I don’t have time to figure out how to adapt or if it actually will be better but I think other people here have tried it so stop saying its bad when you just throw him in and won't make the fundamental change.
If people are just saying it is bad without testing, then honestly why care if they want to run it or not. In certain metagames I can see him being excluded, but you have to realize in most matches, the first cards you are going to board out are instigators. I adapted my list to allow 2 instigator, 3 chieftain, and a 3rd SCG since the extra "lackey" effects allow me to, and having the third has just won me games. Like FoulQ said, if you run port, it becomes more difficult to run larger quantities of instigator.. I feel 2 is the correct number in my list, but I also do not run the full playset of piledrivers since I dont think they are needed in my meta as a 4-of to win me games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosedog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Thankyou. I'm looking forward to the boarding plan. In addition to the questions everyone else has asked, I'd like to get your insights into some of your selections.
Here they are
Warren Wierding: Do you agree with FoulQ that it forces goblins into the aggro role as it isn't as flexible as other options? (As noted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[DTW]-Vial-Goblins&p=426869&viewfull=1#post426869 ) Or is this not such a problem as with mulligans an aggressive beginning puts the opponent on the back foot and even when they stabilise Goblins late game is usually stronger?
One question that just came to mind> Do you ever Wierding your own blocker if yoiu are on the defensive, for example against zoo to make additional blockers next turn? Seems similar to Mogg War Marshall in this situation.
Black Goblins: Neither Frogtosser to speed up and smooth out the curve or Earwig to fight hate didn't make the cut? Hell maybe even Wort as Ringleader #5-6 (although I know he/she/it wasn't popular after a bit of playtesting).
No Chieftain: I know MB slots are lacking but 5-8 haste enabler looks strong. Also helps fight Plague.
Plague Answer: I know it is falling from favour, but you don't seem to have any answer to one or two Plagues hitting the field.
I'm not being critical here, I'd just like to know your assessment and exclusions of particular cards from the MB and those already asked of the sideboard.
Looking forward to the responses.
Well I like instigator for a lot of reasons...Quote:
Originally Posted by ddt15
First if he hits - he can win you the game.
Also he has really good synergies with the build that I went with. For example, he can put down matron, trigger her ability and then put down whatever goblin you tutor up.
He could put down goblin ring leader and you draw 4 and can put down anyone of the goblins you draw..
He can put down chieftain and give your goblins +1/+1 when they do their damage.
I run gempalm for removal, so sometimes it can end up with games going turn 1 lackey, turn 2 instigator, and then using gempalm to remove one of their creatures (assuming they put out 2 themselves) on turn 3 and swing. So sometimes it pays to have 2 (or more) creatures with lackey's ability.
Plus, double strike is freaking awesome anyway and chieftain helps make him even buffer and with Jitte - yikes X_X;
anyway here's my list...
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [A] Taiga
7 [LRW] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Forest (2)
1 [GP] Stomping Ground
// Creatures
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
Ok first, re Mindbreak Trap: I admit that my board is in constant flux and that MBT is the new guy on the block. I typically just decide to lose to Storm Combo, but in my early testing it's letting me steal a few games when combined with Lackeys and Wastelands. Making Storm Combo keep Chant and Duress in against Goblins is probably a good thing. That said, there's a good chance it'll go back to being Pithing Needle or Goblin Chieftain, which were the guys in there before Mindbreak and Perish.
I don't agree with this at all. In fact I think it's completely ridiculous. Warren Weirding moves Goblins more to a midrange aggro-control variant. And what's non-flexible about being able to kill every single threat in the format and being includable on your card draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Instigator replaced Frogtosser. Never liked Wort. Wort's terrible. And don't particularly love Earwig Squad either, although I admit it's playable in certain metagames.Quote:
Black Goblins: Neither Frogtosser to speed up and smooth out the curve or Earwig to fight hate didn't make the cut? Hell maybe even Wort as Ringleader #5-6 (although I know he/she/it wasn't popular after a bit of playtesting).
That's why it shows up in my board if I anticipate Plague.Quote:
No Chieftain: I know MB slots are lacking but 5-8 haste enabler looks strong. Also helps fight Plague.
You answered your own point.Quote:
Plague Answer: I know it is falling from favour, but you don't seem to have any answer to one or two Plagues hitting the field.
Now with all the discussion going on about Warren Instigator wouldn´t be Goblin Sledder be an interesting choice?
- He makes Ichorid-matchups a lot easier -> 1 Sledder can kill every Bridge during the entire game
- He is a good Jitte solver
- Volcanic fallout / Pyroclasm don´t kill every dude anymore
- Sometimes you can safe a crucial Gobbo against a Grim Lavamancer/Darkblast/ Fire//Ice /Bolt....
- He does Combattricks and pushes thru these last points of dmg
- A Warren Instigator goes to the dome for at least 4 points of damage on turn 3 and up to 8 -12 if combined with other Gobbos and Marshal´s !
(1 Turn Sledder / 2 Turn Intigaor / 3 Turn Marshal or other Gobbos --> Boosting Intigator for up to +5/+5 --> 12 dmg + 2 Gobbodrops
- Helps keep a turn 2 lackey alive against 1/1´s
- If you play a single Sharpshooter in the SB he helps against stuff like Moat
Maybe as a two off.
What do you guys think???
When I was talking about Warren Weirding I was comparing it specifically to Stingscourger. I stand by what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Stingscourger cannot stop Progenitus. Warren weirding is good against him but only when they have one creature in play. How do goblin decks deal with him?
Win faster than them, obv. 1 prog isn't going to defend them against your army, and like you said: Weriding is good.
So yea, I'm not terribly worried about being paired against that deck, unless they drop a ghostly prison which is in few SBs (all builds can deal with proaganda)
Is the Wasteland/Port package required in an undeveloped meta? I'm not asking this out of Budget concerns, but merely as a meta question.
depends on your meta. Do they play nonbasics ---> play wasteland. (so metas are full of cheap players)
Port can go either way, its generally better only vs control. My metagame is mostly aggro so it doesn't do much except screw me out of a needed red source on occassion.
OBVIOUSLY, the question also depends on WHICH goblin deck you are playing (R, R/b, R/g/w)
Mono-Red. I play it for 2 reasons:
1. I like Mono-Colored theme decks.
and
2. I can't afford me Duals or appropriate fetches.
Besides, the only reason I would splash would be for Perish in the Side. A lot of people have started making Johnny-tastic green decks since WW in my meta.
But I do have a guy who will trade me the last 2 Wastelands I needed, and I recently acquired the final Lackey I had been missing.
I'm also torn as to use a Matron toolbox or not. Apparently not much of that has been going on, and I'm wondering why.
First off, Goblin Sledder is terrible.
Second,
Well. I apologize if it sounded like I was calling you ridiculous. I wasn't. Honestly, I didn't actually read what you said that was referenced. I was mostly responding just straight up to the notion that Warren Weirding put you more in the aggro role, which I disagree with completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
I can see where you can make the point that Weirding is less versatile than Stingscourger. It definitely is. But for this versatility, I think you give up a ton of power. Warren Weirding saves your ass against things. Progenitus and Iona, for one. For two, Stingscourger in the midgame doesn't get something gone for good. Warren Weirding does.
However, the versatility of Stingscourger is why I won't ever play without at least one.