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If you want combo at any cost, proteus staff is certainly better than polimorph... cut manlands and add elspeth + vedalken shackles and it should be ok.
Wow. Impressive. Why playing a deck that can put a t2 iona into play when we can have polymorph?...Quote:
polymorph offer a 5. turn iona
(End of sarcasm)
I really don't get why a combo that gets online @ t5 (or 6/7/8 if you count daze and pierce...) should push landstill in the deck t beat zone again...
I suppose there have been worse opening posts, welcome to The Source anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by APodeschwa
Although that was painful to read, I still managed to soldier through it and this is what I've got:
Your assessment of "why Landstill is bad" seems generally wrong, and your suggestion to improve the problems (no Wrath, add crazy Polymorph package) don't improve them at all.
For Combo we solve the lack of a clock problem by siding into "HateBear+Counterspell".deck. You stop their early attempts to go off with your disruption, land a hatebear (disruption AND clock) and ride it to victory. I've had a lot of success with this approach and before you say it... The "every combo player you've ever played must be a scrub then" response is overused. (Besides, if every combo player I ever play against is a bad combo player, then my strategy still works, lawl.)
Landstill is bad against aggro? Since when? Zoo is a Bye. We are a board control deck, to say that we hardly ever control it is silly.
Your Reanimator argument is fairly justified, game 1 is a beating. But really how does Polymorph help us here?
In order to use Polymorph:
A) We have to live to at least turn 5! (You need a Factory to 'Morph)
B) On turn 5 you have to resolve a 4 mana spell, and you can't even pay for Daze because you have to activate your man-land.
C) Assuming all of that happens your Iona comes into play and against Reaminator.... LEGEND RULE! ...oops. You pass the turn, they untap and reanimate theirs again and we just lose anyway, looking retarded.
Against Merfolk you're still not going to resolve Polymorph in time for it to matter just like any other 4cc Bomb.
Really polymorph doesn't help us at all. Sure it CAN cheat Emrakul or w/e into play in magicalchristmasland, but in the real world it'll just get straight up countered by Lightning Bolt, StoP, Path, etc.
As much as I love Polymorph as a fun/casual card, I'm honestly not seeing ANY matchups that your configuration improves, for the most part, it makes them all worse...
In my opinion, Landstill has a very positive board against most aggro. (except maybe tribal). Zoo can be hard because they can stil reach for the final damages with their bolts and other spells even if Landstill has board control. I would still play red to push that positive to its max.
Against reanimator : playing more counterspells and muligan agressively. SDT + Cunning wish + Jace TMS can sometimes steal game 1 (I did it twice, so its not impossible, although G1 is still in their favor). After sidebord, you should have plenty tools to survive. Just make sure to counter their 4entomb or 4 careful study. Preventing them from dropping the monster in the graveyard can be key (and would probably force them to discard by drawing 8, or by hoping to find another card). This alone should give you additional time to find answers, especially after sideboard. (FOW turn 1 careful study, drop turn 2 meddling mage for example. A turn 1 Relic of progenitus should also buy you enough time to stabilize and win, etc etc.)
Planeswalker has helped Landstill alot. It allows us to maximize board control. Having an Elspeth for example will allow you to control board against most non tribal aggro, forcing them to overextend and allowing you to abuse WOG effects. Jace 2.0 will allow you to control board (With its unsummon) but it will also allow you to gain control of the library (With its brainstorm ability, but also with its look at the top card ability. That alone can finish off most deck that have 0 card to manipulate the deck) Plus, all Planeswalker that are landstill-playable have a decent ultimate that can bring down your opponent on its own. I'm thinking about the Jace (1.0 and 2.0). Elspeth has a nice one too. Use it and all your blockers are now invincible. (This can buy you so much time against aggro). Ajani (Vengeant and Goldmane) have pretty good ultimate too...
And combo is combo. You usually lose G1 not because you dont have a clock, but because they are too fast and are not subject to your board control. Basically, you have about 12 cards that are useless against them (all of your removal usually). You need to sidebord them out for more counters and other tool. G2-3 are usually more winnable depending on how godly his hand is and if you have enough counters to survive the first wave. If you play red, by all mean, use your Helix on your opponent. Removing some of their life will make ant more risky and should buy you 1-2 more storm spell
Have nothing relevant to topic, but this was great and it actually made me go back looking in the thread while thinking to myself.." What disaster?".Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
Ok, so I've been toying with Landstill for all of like, three weeks now (a relatively short time) and after looking at a whole lot of lists, I've ended up with a UWr build, with the red for Firespout and red blasts from the board. For reference:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
1x Path to Exile
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Humility
3x Firespout
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Elspeth
1x Jace, the Mind Sculpter
1x Ajani Vengeant
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
2x Plateau
2x Plains
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Mishra's Factory
I'm not expecting this to be a format-defining, game-ending death machine, or some unbeatable monster. Conservatively, I'd like to win three matchups: Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo. If that means my combo matchup is 0%, or that I auto-lose to Reanimator, so be it.
All that being said, I'm wondering what all of you think about the maindeck. The humilities have been fantastic, and oftentimes seal game one all on their own. The win conditions feel somewhat lackluster, as none of the planeswalkers seal the deal simply by entering play. Ajani is easily the weakest of the three, and a card I'm strongly considering cutting, but I'm not really sure what to replace him with. I've considered a few combo wins, including painter-grindstone, but that doesn't really seem like where this build wants to go.
I've loved Firespout, despite its relative inability to kill Tarmogoyf. That cost me in one match, but doesn't seem to be a big enough issue to merit going back to Wrath. The 1x Path and 4x Swords make the removal suite pretty Tarmogoyf-proof, and I'm not really feeling the lack of Academy ruins, but I'm considering losing a plains for it, as EE recursion would help a lot in some match-ups. 4x Spell Snare feels like a weak point in the list, as against goblins it's going to hit one relevant card (Piledriver), against Merfolk it'll counter three (LoA, Standstill, Silvergill), while against Zoo it's stopping a lot more (Pridemage, Goyf, Library, Helix, etc). That being said, I'm thinking about Spell Pierce/More counterspells as a replacement. Not sure if that's good with my goals in mind, but it feels like pierce would be almost as relevant simply by countering Aether vial in those matchups.
That brings me to my main point of posting here: I hate standstill. I hate it. It's dead in nearly every matchup I want to be winning in, simply by virtue of my opponent being aggressive. Any number of starts, which obviously include Lackey, Vial, a Manland, or simply fast creatures out of Zoo, make standstill very unimpressive from my side of the table. I'm obviously not playing the card into a bad board position, but it's rare that I have a good board position. The only time I really feel that I can drop Standstill is when my opponent isn't sitting on vial, and I've just wiped the board. But in order to wipe the board and play standstill on the same turn, I need to be coughing up 5 mana, which in some matchups is too late, and I’ve needed my board sweeper before then. If I wipe and pass, I'm facing down another threat from my opponent what feels like 70-80% of the time, at which point I no longer have a favorable board position, which means I can't drop standstill, which makes me hate the card. And all this is forgetting the fact that, in general, Merfolk runs wastes and manlands to my only manlands, and as such I probably shouldn't even drop Standstill onto an EMPTY board against them. Argh.
With all that hate in mind, I have to say, when it shines, it really shines. I mulled down to four cards one game, and Tundra Standstill Swords Mishra’s Factory managed to take Zoo well into the lategame, almost solely on the back of that Standstill. But one success story does not a useful card make. I really either want to somehow tune the deck to be better able to abuse standstill, or drop the card entirely for a more effective draw engine.
While this may make all of my friends face-palm simultaneously, in my mind the only card that even comes close to providing the raw card advantage that Standstill does as cheaply as standstill does it, is Life-from-the-fucking-Loam. It’s worth noting that I’m not suggesting cycling lands here. Simply recurring fetches, dead Mishra’s Factories, and perhaps Wastelands would be enough to merit Loam’s inclusion, as it’s interaction with brainstorm is fantastic. Dredging away the two terrible cards you throw back on top after an EoT brainstorm would be an amazing way to attain some card quality, and allows you to shuffle/top/brainstorm/dredge away lands, as the Loam itself is going to guarantee your next few land drops.
Loam is obviously not without downsides. It opens you up to a world of grave-hate you were previously nearly impervious to, and puts you in a fourth color. Those two things alone are probably enough to make me not play it. But it’s still worth suggesting, simply to hear more opinions on the card, or its possible use in landstill/control archetypes.
The idea of Loam failing brings me to another point entirely. If Loam isn’t worth it, and I cant get Standstill to function properly against Merfolk, Goblins, and Zoo, is Landstill the right deck for me? Is there another viable control deck somewhere in Legacy that doesn’t have the issue with standstill being mediocre against aggro, and doesn’t have the problem of Loam drawing all of the graveyard removal in the format? With the vast number of cards in the Legacy card pool, and the raw power of some of the control cards inside of that pool, it would seem improbable that there isn’t at least one other blue control deck in the format, that quite possibly does not run a Standstill or a Loam engine, while still playing Brainstorm, Force of Will, Fetches, and a real draw engine.
And before I get four different Elgin monstrosities suggested to me, it’s worth noting that I’m not willing to move away from brainstorm and top and fetches. I’ve been playing blue-less decks for a while now, and coming back to the Brainstorms, Fetches, and Tops that I loved so much in Dreadstill is very refreshing. This is assuming, of course, that you even think I need to switch lists. Landstill could just be in need of some tuning.
You should simply have a little bit more practice with the deck, that's all. If you want to beat tribal and zoo, humilities are certainly not needed, as 3 firespout already do the job at a cheaper cost. I'd also cut counterspells for another 2 copies of jace the mind sculptor an a crucible for something else. Apart from merfolk, in all other Mu's you mentioned standstill is simply backbreaking, as you should build the deck with lots of spot removal so that you are certain to have the board always clear to take full advantage of standstill. I suggest another path to exile or lightning bolt/lightning helix, and obviously the 3rd EE.
-2 counterspell
+2 jace the mind sculptor
-2 humility
-1 crucible of worlds
+3 bolt/helixes
If you choose helix,
-1 Ajani vengeant
+1 EE
-1 Path to Exile
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
(Eventually: -1 FS +1 humility, but again, needed only if you usually run into lots of progenitals)
SB:
3 Aura of Silence
3 reb
3 counterbalance
2 Relic of progenitus
3 faerie macabre
1 open slot (humility? dismantling blow?)
(Sb geared towards ant enchantress reanimator ichorid most of all; aura of silence is nuts against ant, cb owns loam and burn, reb comes in against most of the decks, even ichorid.)
How about this deck?
// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [ROE] Island (1)
1 [R] Plateau
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SHM] Firespout
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [TE] Humility
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
You should have a quite good matchup vs aggro. 8 removal + cb/top.
Vs. combo you have cb/top and good cards in the board (canonist is tutorable)
Thopter foundry/sotm is a combo that doesnt need you to tap about during your mainphase.
E. tutor can search various cards and missing combo parts.
The manabase seems quite ok, but i think theres no need for an a.ruins because it is way too random and only useable for a countered combo part (and a s.top).
T.crypts are better than relics because a relic might be too slow on the draw vs dregde or reanimator.
The sb is made against: aggro (helix), reanimator+ ANT+ various decks (spierce), GY-oriented decks (crpyt) and again combo (e. canonist)
What do you think?
There seem to be a disconnect here. The decks packing 11+ removal have some trouble with aggro, and CB+Top isn't really super good there. Couple that with the fact that 4/8 of your removal will never kill a tarmogoyf or anything bigger than a nacatl and you have a real issue on your hands with aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by APodeschwa
3 Firespout is the right number if you want to go that route, and more spot removal (+1-2 PtE). I've been down that route before, Firespout is a great Zoo hoser if you can get rid of their Goyfs and KotR, but in the long run I've gone back to Wrath of God. One more mana for a stronger catch-all and it hits stuff like Rhox War Monk, actually Goyf, and stuff like Progenitus and friends.
I used to endorse the red splash, but getting blown out by 4+ toughness dudes and a reliance on Humility, the black splash seems stronger. (Stronger is relative though, my "last"-last outing with LS I still got crushed).
So I played one of my newer lists this past weekend at two different events. I did not run the exact same list both days but the changes for day two were mostly fix's to the mana base. I am not going to post the list at this time but for reference it was a very traditional build and was only UW.
Swiss of the Lotus Event: 80 something people.
Round One vs Mono Black Suicide: Win 2-0
Round Two vs Enchantress: Lose 1-2. Lost game one to Mana base issue that was fixed for Sunday, Lost to resolved Dovescape then Vexing Shusher game 3, nice combo.
Round 3 vs Mirror {Eli Kassan, teammate who made top 8} Lose 1-2 Lose game 3 to mana base again, vow to fix mana base 7- Basics is not as good as I had hoped, adding fetch's for Sunday.
Round 4 vs Enchantress: Win 2-0
Round 5 vs Bant: Win 2-0
Round 6 vs Stasis: win 2-0
Round 7 vs Bant: win 2-0
Top 16 Playoff's:
Round 1 vs Meathooks win 2-0
Round 2 vs Tes win 2-0
Round 3 vs Straight Burn lose 0-2. Failed to draw counters game 1 and lost to mana issues game 2.
Ended day in tenth going 7-3.
Sunday GP trial.
Round 1 vs New Horizon's win 2-1
Round 2 vs Bryant Cook (TES) win 2-1
Round 3 vs Bant win 2-0
Round 4 vs Bant win 2-0
Round 5 vs ANT win 2-0 (Yes I made my opponents play out all of the rounds of swiss)
Top 8 vs ANT win 2-0
Top 4 vs New Horizons win 2-0
Finals vs ANT (guy from round 5) lose 2-1. He cast Duress and Ad Nauseum turn two of game 1 and won the die roll. Game 3 it took forever to find a win con and he killed me by casting two tendrils from his hand with more storm than I could counter out.
Ended trial day 7-1 for the day.
I only posted this to show that "Landstill" is still very viable as a concept. I only ran UW. I did not run Jace in the MD and only ran one in my SB as an extra control match up card plus an extra Reanimate hate card. I did not run Counterbalance or Top. I ran 1 Elspeth and 1 Humility in the MD and did not have any splash color cards in the MD or the SB. The rest of the deck was just straight forward cards that have been played in various Landstill decks for years now. I did splash a Trop and a Scrub in the deck but it was only for the 3 Explosives in the deck. I'm not sure if the duals will stay but they were not a hindrence in any way and once each day I needed EE up to 3 that won me the game so for now they will stay.
@Konsultant: Congrats! That's a great performance against a lot of top decks/players. It's amazing that Landstill might still be a great call in this meta. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense though. With so much Zoo and Bant, which are essentially creature-based decks, sweepers and removal will win tons of games. I understand why you might be reluctant to share your list, but I'm still curious, haha
Btw: Stasis in round 6?? What was his record? That's quite bizarre and interesting. I would like to see his decklist too!
Edit: How do people feel about the power/consistency of Enlightened Tutor toolboxes these days? I understand it's not true card advantage... but niether is FoW. The main thing in my book is being able to have the exact card you want at the right time. I'm working on a list incorporating a few ideas I've seen and liked, but I'm trying to choose between raw card drawing and a tutor toolbox... Any imput would be helpful.
Congratz on that finish. Traditionnal lists are traditionnal for one reason : they have proven their effectiveness.
I personally believe red is still the way to go right now because of all the aggro. I may be wrong, but you have faced 0 aggro deck, except maybe that meathok (assuming its sliver).
In an environment light of aggro, I think UW or UWx is a very good idea. No need to waste all those precious spots for removal ineffective against fatties.
In the GP trial he played against four bant decks, and even the bant control is pretty aggro, I wouldn't discount it on that, and I think the straight UW list may be strong enough on its own if you've got enough removal to take care of everything.
I'd love to see your list since you mentioned some card choices already, its always good to see what wins and dissect it/try to make it stronger.
You're such a tease.
(Good work, keep it going!)
I played LandStill at the dutch team challenge sunday and did pretty good. I didn't meet alot of aggro though..
R1: UW Tempo 1-1
Humility + Elspeth wins g1 eventually but I can't do much g2. We don't have time for a third.
R2: New Horizons 2-0
Pretty good matchup since I play 6 plows. I never get hit by a creature.
R3: CounterTop 2-0
Game-1 I Snare his CB and play standstill. Factories take the game from there. G-2 he mulls to 5 with 1 land and I have Waste + Vindicate and draw a second waste as well.
R4: Faerie Stompy 2-0
I mainly win game-1 by blowing up a chalice for 1 twice, while only playing 2 explosives. G-2 I win through a fast B2B by fetching basics and a Sea and then vindicating it.
R5: Battle of Wits.. 0-0-1
This was bound to go to time although I got very close. He had explosives for my decree. He killed one elspeth and had a jace to bounce the tokens from the second. By the time I finally found my 2nd factory (with about 15 cards in the deck, having shuffled over 15 times easily) he lands a runed halo on factory. I play explosives for 2 with him at 1 life ready to attack for the win but he had the counterspell and all mine were played or extirpated. Funny matchup, shame I didn't win.
R6: Show & Tell / Eureka 2-0 (Team 2-1)
Game-1 I stop his Show & Tell and factory & elspeth win it. Game-2 I let SnT resolve. He drops Emrakul, I drop Humility. he doesn't have Krosan Grip, and I vindicate emrakul. Elspeth & Factory finish it.
My list in short:
23 land (4 Tundra, 1 Sea, 1 Scrub, 4 Strand, 2 Delta, 2 Plains, 2 Island, 4 Factory, 3 Waste)
6 Plows (4 StP, 2 PtE)
2 WoG
2 Humility
3 Wins (2 Elspeth, 1 DoJ)
2 EE
3 Tops
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
9 Counters(4 FoW, 3 CS, 2 Snare)
2 Vindicate
You know what I just thought about, that would completely own Merfolk if you splashed red? Grim Lavamancer. They (usually) run no removal for the guy, 1cc makes him way easier to squeeze through Daze/Cursecatcher than Firespout, and he's virtual card advantage for the entire game. The deck is more than capable of having enough cards in the graveyard to feed him, and he can remove every single Merfolk they put into play. If they manage to get a couple of pump Lords out, all it takes is a single Swords or something to get Lavamancer functional again.
Only problem is, he's lackluster vs Zoo. Firespout is much better vs them. Then again, Grim Lavamancer would be a sideboard card, and if the deck is splashing red, it's probably running Firespout maindeck anyway.
Yay, nay?
Daze is the only danger there, cursecatcher is only instants and sorceries. But I could see that being good for red splash.
JamieW89: Good Job, its always interesting to see those decks pop up like battle of wits. Looks like you did pretty well overall, what place did you end up in and how many players were there?
This was my list from this past weekend:
4x STP
2x PTE
3x WOG
1x Humility
1x Elspeth
3x DOJ
1x Eternal Dragon
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x FOF
3x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell
4x FOW
3x EE
23x Lands.
Like I said it's just straight forward UW Landstill. I'm still toying around with it some but it's the basic shell. Goblins/Merfolk/Ichorid and combo all require some SB cards to consistently beat. This is not a new thing. Sure some meta changes can improve some game one's but I didn't want a meta build i wanted a straight forward approach.
Congats on the results and good list! 2 questions though: How was it with only 23 land and E. Dragon? Also, theres no CoW in the deck, was that an issue at all? CoW can help tremendously and I rarely find it to be a dead card.
I think that really depends on what kind of land lineup went into it, how many wastes, tolaria west, etc. Personally seeing the list I would assume the land lineup is something like(taking into account what konsultant said about the scrubland and trop):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Plains
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
edit: made it a more true list