[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Hi,

Lemnear, Finally, I'm going to test the approach you say about 4EtW vs miracles... If I tested CoS and didnt work I believe I have to give this a chance.... Please could you expose me the 75 and the HowToSideTo Onthe play and on the Draw? Thanks in advance.

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@Lemnear - please.

this is desperation...

EDIT: @F.Fortune: Trying to contribute to your problems vs D&T: likely disfigure is the best was if you dont wnat to inves in 3-4 DoN (although i would prefer CoV because of its polivalency...): maybe Slaughter Pact is another option...: getsup up your storm count, kills by 0 mana - theu unique issue is that you need to play it by 1 mana in you turn to kill thalia.... dont think theyll play prelate on 1 but this is more likely tan prlate on 0... another good thin is that you can accumulate them vs multiple hatebears. - imagine you need to deal with thalia and revoker and you have multiple SP you can use 1 mana to kill both on you turn - if you have 2 disfigure you need to spend 1 disfigure EoT by 2 mana and the other in the same turn unless you have 3 available mana EoT...

Slaughter Pact is a interesting option, even tho' you can't cast it at the end of your turn vs Thalia it's cheaper on your turn vs her and it doesn't cost you black mana, which means you can more liberally fetch for Volcanic Island. More so it's 0 damage off of Ad Nauseam, so I definitely think it's worth trying as a dedicated answer to hate bears. 4 Warrens is better vs aggro-control than it is vs Miracles, if you're still having trouble vs Miracles then I recommend the 3 Tendrils plan because all you have to do is remove Counterbalance and ignore Sensei's Divining Top as you storm by hand. Ofcourse Tendrils are much narrower than Warrens vs other decks, but if Miracles is the majority of the meta you may as well try it. I really recommend going thru' the ANT thread for ideas, I find it really helpful as they aren't as linear in their approach to the archetype.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Slaughter Pact is a interesting option, even tho' you can't cast it at the end of your turn vs Thalia it's cheaper on your turn vs her and it doesn't cost you black mana, which means you can more liberally fetch for Volcanic Island. More so it's 0 damage off of Ad Nauseam, so I definitely think it's worth trying as a dedicated answer to hate bears. 4 Warrens is better vs aggro-control than it is vs Miracles, if you're still having trouble vs Miracles then I recommend the 3 Tendrils plan because all you have to do is remove Counterbalance and ignore Sensei's Divining Top as you storm by hand. Ofcourse Tendrils are much narrower than Warrens vs other decks, but if Miracles is the majority of the meta you may as well try it. I really recommend going thru' the ANT thread for ideas, I find it really helpful as they aren't as linear in their approach to the archetype.

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I looked at the ANT thread for ideas, but the are comprissed in:
+senseis - thing I maybe test afer other things
CoS - I tested this and just sucks.
as you said more tendrils - maybe need to test this approach...
more Krosan.
etc etc

well then what is your suggestion vs Miracles? what 75 do you propose and HowToSide in the play and on the draw. you can notice that I am deperate to win Miracles with TES.

it seems that i am the unique player ploting TES that looses vs Miracles.... Am I?

No, Miracles is a bad match up for all Storm players, it's just not an unwinnable matchup for the archetype. You'll need to cut down on the discard to fit in the Tendrils in the SB and you can just side in 2 of the Tendrils for the Empty the Warrens and a Chrome Mox. If you look at my list a couple of pages back, you could try -1 Thoughtseize and -1 Meltdown for +2 Tendrils of Agony, SB out 2 Chrome Mox, 1 Empty the Warrens and 4 Ponder for 2 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Thoughtseize and 4 Abrupt Decay.

I like the Tendrils plan better than the Warrens plan vs Miracles, because it doesn't need Chrome Mox to stay in the MD and you don't have any specific window you need to hit.

Hi all,

Yesterday I played a torunament with TES.

I returned to my origins, you know sometimes you just play what you want/like to play... my side was:

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Bayou
1 Bribery
1 Diminishing returns
1 void snare

the base was as usual 3 C.M, 7 discard, 12 lands among them 4 gemstones

I came late to the torunament so the 1st torund was a game loss, as we were not even, there was the player with the round free around there and I offered to play with him - he was playing D&T and we tested a Little - we tested 3 games starting him.
He played Prelate and have to say that was absolutly irrelevant for him i won 2 of the 3 games we playing he on the play. once I had the option to strip a hatebear among thalia and prelate - i chose thalia, prelate even didnt see the play before i won. so great I think I prefer prelate ove whatever cost 2 he could have played.

the other 4 rounds I won:
the pairing were:
U/R with stifle, daze fows and fluster - very interesting game in deed...
Lands with vampire and tarbenalces - I was able to win with 1 goblin hitting the opp. at 1 life paying for tarbenacel - very great game again...
Miracles - I won in here the 2 games - but as always i think it was just Luck by my part or bad plays by his part... the good thing is that I included for the 2nd game 2 t.seize total of 9 discards... the decays were again irrelevant..., any way we played a 3rd match up, of course statistics dictate he should won and in deed he won - was all about senseis, I recognize I made a mistaka and was assuming he had fluster on top or in hand... of course he played 3 fusters and no prelate. the funny thing is that i saked the opponent about the frequency he drew balance and he played only 3!!
kind of B/G with discard - in deed a very easy match up...
after all 3rd position. was happy to play magic as long time ago i dont play Legacy... hope I play more often now my timetable is more flexible!!

I feel that the unique cards i need in side are just decays and more discard finally... so the rest i fill with whatever i like...
again grapeshot were great, didnt use D.R. or Bribery but had a chance to play D.R. although there were better options.

the hell how much i love this deck...

Well, headaches about Prelate aside, D&T may have gotten some new toys, but we got super pimp versions of the goodstuff we already play! Too bad for Bryant the Kaladesh Lotus Petals/Moxen are only available in English. I may go down to 2 Moxes just so I only have 6 Masterpiece cards to get instead of 7. :P

Kidding. Will be pursuing all of them as soon as possible.

So I woke up today and watched the newest Kayguy mtg episode on youtube. They showed this new awesome card: Marionette Master.
It's basically a cc6 1/3 potentially 4/6 or brings Servo token to the party. Kay asked then where do we want to play it and since I don't have a youtube account,
I post my answer here for him. Hopefully he sees it. Back to the topic, isn't this card striclty better than Empty? It's black, even without pumping itself can block Shamans all day
and does mini Tendrils with his second ability (with Petals and Diamonds too). I will preorder a set jap, foils before this card spikes like hell. What do you others think?

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Originally Posted by Marcelo65

So I woke up today and watched the newest Kayguy mtg episode on youtube. They showed this new awesome card: Marionette Master.
It's basically a cc6 1/3 potentially 4/6 or brings Servo token to the party. Kay asked then where do we want to play it and since I don't have a youtube account,
I post my answer here for him. Hopefully he sees it. Back to the topic, isn't this card striclty better than Empty? It's black, even without pumping itself can block Shamans all day
and does mini Tendrils with his second ability (with Petals and Diamonds too). I will preorder a set jap, foils before this card spikes like hell. What do you others think?

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I anwer as i dont want to see somebody to invest money on this card.
it is a crap card for TES. it is not comparable to EtW

Well it looks like Madcap Experiment and Platinum Emporium is going to be a more relevant version of Natural Order and Progenitus for us, so Void Snare is staple now?

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Well it looks like Madcap Experiment and Platinum Emporium is going to be a more relevant version of Natural Order and Progenitus for us, so Void Snare is staple now?

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You can literally just Grapeshot them out – 8 at the shitty creature and 20 at them.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Well it looks like Madcap Experiment and Platinum Emporium is going to be a more relevant version of Natural Order and Progenitus for us, so Void Snare is staple now?

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That or Hurkyl's Recall. I may be the only person who thinks this, but I think that card is severely underplayed in AnT, and I'm glad to see it's got a place in TES these days.

It also costs 4 and doesn't win them the game on the spot. seems not worth it

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

That or Hurkyl's Recall. I may be the only person who thinks this, but I think that card is severely underplayed in AnT, and I'm glad to see it's got a place in TES these days.

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Hurkyl's in ANT is a meta call. If your meta doesn't require it, then it's awful. It if does, it's necessary. And in a broad meta, it's unlikely to be good as it only really wrecks decks that are heavily favored already, and even then only if you accruing her to use it at an appropriate time. It may be better is some TES builds, as you'll ideally be spending less time locked out of the game

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Originally Posted by fangzie

Hurkyl's in ANT is a meta call. If your meta doesn't require it, then it's awful. It if does, it's necessary. And in a broad meta, it's unlikely to be good as it only really wrecks decks that are heavily favored already, and even then only if you accruing her to use it at an appropriate time. It may be better is some TES builds, as you'll ideally be spending less time locked out of the game

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In large part, I think you're right that it's a poor choice in a number of matchups [EDIT: I should rephrase. There are undoubtedly matchups in which boarding in Hurk is a poor choice], but I disagree that it's a poor 2x in ANT. I don't want to take this thread off track by talking further about a deck that isn't the subject of the thread, but if you'd like to discuss this, I'd be interested in PM theorycrafting.

Keep storming up a storm!

Playing against Show & Tell game 1.
They have land, wish, griselbrand, brainstorm, and 2 unknowns in hand. 1 they drew for turn, the other off ponder. They are tapped out.

You have Petal, LED, Rite of Flame, Dark Rit, Wish, Infernal in hand and an untapped Underground Sea.

What do you do? I tried to go off with Infernal into Ad Nauseam and got Forced but was thinking about Petal->Rite->Wish->Thoughtseize that turn and then go off next turn if possible.

Did I make the right play risking a Force or should be have done the Wish for discard? I'm still learning the deck so I'm unsure.

Did they ID you as Storm yet? (The underground sea and gitprobe you means that yes, they probably did)

If they knew you were on Storm and they pondered and did not shuffle, this means they found something they were looking for. With a slow hand like that, it indicates they were either looking for gas or protection, with protection being the most valuable thing to find- their hand is slow and even a single accelerant won't change that a WHOLE lot- they probably aren't killing you next turn, so staying alive long enough to fire off their brainstorm is their topmost priority. You should be aware of what you're telegraphing to your opponent- this means you know what the most valuable things they can find are. if they don't know what to Ponder for, it may change their priority to be more offensively minded and a Ponder that offers a City of Traitors may be valued higher than one offering FoW- especially given their single land.

Your odds have lessened if they cast Ponder and did not shuffle- they found something the hand was missing and it already had Griselbrand and a Wish, so this means they either found their accelerant or their FoW.
If they shuffled off the Ponder, this means they're still digging for something that their draw for the turn didn't yield them. Regardless, the thing that makes this a tough play is knowing they have Brainstorm. So you have exactly one chance to snag the force with the discard you wished for before they untap and can hide it with Brainstorm. Letting them access their Brainstorm is also dangerous- they'll get to look at an additional 4 cards (their draw for the turn, and their Brainstorm cards). At this point they will have seen 15 cards of their deck, and statistically speaking, they should be finding a Force somewhere in there.
I think making the attempt was a justifiable play, but assessing whether they shuffled or kept off the Ponder should have sent a warning signal at least. With an opening hand like the one you had, I think your misplay was not holding the GitProbe you must've cast till your combo turn, but hindsight is 20/20 and I know how tempting it is to want to figure out what your opponent is on ASAP. But unless you had discard to backup the GitProbe, holding it for your combo turn wasn't going to change the way you were going to play T1 any. You should have looked at your opener, realized you had the kill but not the protection, and waited for your combo turn to cast the probe, as it wasn't going to do you any good anyway that turn no matter what Prove revealed. As you can see, it would have significantly changed the way you were going to play T2 though.

Your line of play of petal-rite-wish-thoughtseize was dangerous in its own right. For one, you're not going off the next turn unless you draw another Dark Rit or LED, and for two, you've lost your only access to red mana now. You've also 4 for 1'd yourself to get the FoW out of their hand, as well as lost two life that you'd want if you manage to Ad Nauseum. Your odds that one of the two unknowns were FoW were lowish-depending on their Ponder action, and not letting them see 3 more cards from the Brainstorm was probably the right play.

The other choice you had was to assume based on their actions that they had found the Force, and you do the following:

Petal
LED
ROF (RR in pool)
Dark Rit (RRBBB to pool)
Cast Wish (RBB to pool)

Resolves? This should get forced if they know what they're doing, the RoF and Wish should have given away you're on TES and they don't want you to Empty, so they'd ideally Force the Wish- the mana remaining in pool and the fact you didn't crack the LED indicate that all you can do off the Wish is fetch Empty (which you can't cast since you didn't crack the LED, unless the last card in your hand is a land, and this is what you're hoping they're banking on- you've got another 12 land in your deck after all). If they let you fetch Empty (why else would you be Wishing here with this low of a storm count?) their slow hand may not be enough to beat the 10 goblins you're about to make, so they can't let you get Empty- they need to Force the Wish if they have it. This is especially pertinent because in order to cheat in griselbrand, they need to find a R for their wish, and enough mana to fire off Wish as well as S&T (and possibly Brainstorm) and this just isn't happening next turn. Goblins are just too fast and they don't have many outs. Your remaining mana telegraphs that you're going to try and Empty with the (nonexistent) land in your hand if they let the Wish Resolve. Also note that Forcing the Petal, RoF, Dark Rit, or LED will not stop you from Emptying (in fact it will guarantee it and just increase the storm count). In order for them to not take this bait, they have to:
1) Recognize the second line of play if the card in your hand is an IT (which of course, it is).
2) Realize that your remaining mana sources cannot result in an Ad Nauseum here.
3) Weigh the odds that the last card in your hand is an IT (and not a land)

If they evaluate the odds correctly, they'll recognize that letting you resolve this Wish is not in their favor, the odds are that you DON'T have an IT and instead have another land and you're going to get Empty, drop a land, and they'll only be able to Force one copy. They should take the bait.

If they found their accelerant, and not the Force, they can't stop it anyway and are about to cheat in Griselbrand. You're dead- just not to FoW, but I can't think of very many possible draws that will let them S&T next turn.

Now you can cast IT, cracking LED for enough mana to make 16 goblins (if they Forced your wish). That gives them one turn to cheat in Griselbrand, or else you're going to knock them to 4, and they won't be able to draw with Griselbrand and you'll be able to attack through its lifelink for lethal. This is the best way to try and get a win if you think they found a Force. It is probably the best line of play IMO if they kept off the Ponder and didn't shuffle.

Most opponents will hold FoW when they see the IT- they want to counter the Ad Nauseum that most people like to default to, but a smart opponent would have a strong chance of getting baited by your initial wish, and if they didn't take THAT bait, there's still a chance they'll go ahead and let the Infernal resolve (though seeing that you only have BBBR in pool after cracking LED should tell them to Force the IT, because all you can do is find and cast the other ETW....but still, it's another mistake they can make.

If you think they have the FoW, this is the best line of play if you're right and if you're wrong, it hedges your bets. If they have it, you're giving them ample opportunity to use it and still be able to present a lethal threat they don't have much time to answer, and if they don't, well, you might not be killing them RIGHT now as if you'd gone after the Ad Nauseum, but there's not a lot they can do to get their way out of that many goblins and you've probably won anyway.

TLDR: If you know that THEY know that you're on Storm, and they keep off of a Ponder, this is a pretty good sign that they found FoW and you should bait it or play around it. If they know you're on Storm and DON'T keep off a ponder, it means that they are probably still looking unless they got a lucky shuffle. Given the fact you have a Usea on board and have already cast a Gitprobe, they should at least be putting you on a combo deck of some kind. Maybe reanimator, maybe storm, but you're faster than them and that means that FoW is a high priority to find and keeping off a Ponder sends you a signal they found something very valuable.

TL;DR casting Probe for no reason and then passing the turn against a deck with cantrips is a grave mistake because opposing Brainstorm/Ponder can heavily alter the hand you just peek'd into. You gave away the info that you are on storm, you gave away a look at your opponents hand the moment it mattered (your comboturn) and you missed that no-shuffle-after-Ponder from your opponent is bad news

I've been trying to learn Miracles and have had some trouble beating ANT, but TES seems really easy. Do you guys think I need to test against a more competent pilot, or is TES generally not as good as ANT against the top tier decks? Thanks

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Originally Posted by BDM4lyfe

I've been trying to learn Miracles and have had some trouble beating ANT, but TES seems really easy. Do you guys think I need to test against a more competent pilot, or is TES generally not as good as ANT against the top tier decks? Thanks

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If the difference is THAT obvious, you need better opponents.

Yup. Miracles isn't a fun matchup for us, but it's not impossible either. Your opponent should be putting up some degree of a fight and getting some wins, but it's not an easy deck to master, Miracles is not an easy deck to play against, and even when you can pilot the deck well and you know how to sideboard and you know how to play against Miracles, you're still not out of the woods yet. A bad opponent is going to make that obvious, a good one will at least make you work for it and feel some pressure. Playing the deck against Lem or Bryant is gonna be a helluva lot harder than playing it against me. I'm not great by any means and I'm still one of the better players in my area, and certainly the best TES pilot out of my playgroup, but there's a very large difference between them and I.

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Originally Posted by BDM4lyfe

I've been trying to learn Miracles and have had some trouble beating ANT, but TES seems really easy. Do you guys think I need to test against a more competent pilot, or is TES generally not as good as ANT against the top tier decks? Thanks

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Have you been getting blown out by Daze out of the new ANT decks?

New article, check it out:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/time-mistakes/

http://www.theepicstorm.com/where-you-want-to-be/

Where you want to be as a storm pilot.

With all respect, but according to the parameters you choose, the best storm.dec in the current metagame is Belcher.

It has an even higher chance to combo off turn 1 if you ignore all possible chances of counterspells per sé. Storms current problems root on fighting back against hate dropped and especially considering games on the draw. If you lose the diceroll against any of these decks, the chance of winning the match is marginal atm.

Yes, go play Belcher.

You're always taking words and bending them elsewhere. I also talk about being resilient against Miracles, why wasn't that mentioned?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Yes, go play Belcher.

You're always taking words and bending them elsewhere. I also talk about being resilient against Miracles, why wasn't that mentioned?

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But don't you understand Legacy is black and white? It's so clear!

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I also talk about being resilient against Miracles, why wasn't that mentioned?

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Why wasn't Delver and its variants mentioned?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Why wasn't Delver and its variants mentioned?

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Nice strawman argument.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Nice strawman argument.

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You wrote an article of how "TES is the best storm deck in the format" because it can combo before Chalice/Counterbalance/Thalia come down and hope no one notices that those combined do not even make 50% of the format.

The article asks "where you want to be" and that question can't be answered by just looking at less than 30% of the metagame and pretend the rest just doesn't matter for building a deck and sideboard. Neither is "win the diceroll and hope you have T1 combo hands every game" a satisfying answer to that question, because if it were, everyone would indeed play Belcher and call it a day. We all know that the chance to win turn 1 with this deck isn't even 20% (with a hand of 7 cards), so making that the leading argument doesn't convince me at all that TES is a good choice in the current metagame and the best option for storm across the WHOLE metagame. The fact that most Delver shells are now Grixis isn't even worth mention? Neither the further decline of traditional "good" matchups is? The analysis seems incomplete.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You wrote an article of how "TES is the best storm deck in the format" because it can combo before Chalice/Counterbalance/Thalia come down and hope no one notices that those combined do not even make 50% of the format.

The article asks "where you want to be" and that question can't be answered by just looking at less than 30% of the metagame and pretend the rest just doesn't matter for building a deck and sideboard. Neither is "win the diceroll and hope you have T1 combo hands every game" a satisfying answer to that question, because if it were, everyone would indeed play Belcher and call it a day. We all know that the chance to win turn 1 with this deck isn't even 20% (with a hand of 7 cards), so making that the leading argument doesn't convince me at all that TES is a good choice in the current metagame and the best option for storm across the WHOLE metagame. The fact that most Delver shells are now Grixis isn't even worth mention? Neither the further decline of traditional "good" matchups is? The analysis seems incomplete.

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No three decks make up 50% of the format. Legacy is too diverse.

The solution isn't "win the die roll" or "turn 1 them every game" find where I said this, please. The deck is built to be fast yet have a decent mid-to-late game, which is the point of the article. You're welcome to disagree, I don't really care since earlier today you were preaching about Thorn & Dread of Night. Your knowledge on the format is out of date, which makes me think less of your opinions.

As for Grixis Delver, the plan for Delver variants did not change, therefor I did not mention it. I wasn't aware that I needed to discuss every deck that the game plan didn't change, I'll make sure to include Imperial Painter, High Tide, Froot Loops and so on in my next one. Thank you for pointing this out.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I don't really care since earlier today you were preaching about Thorn & Dread of Night. Your knowledge on the format is out of date, which makes me think less of your opinions.

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It really ridiculous that you call recent examples of Thorn in Eldrazi like at Eternal Extravaganza or at the SCG classic out of date

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It really ridiculous that you call recent examples of Thorn in Eldrazi like at Eternal Extravaganza or at the SCG classic out of date

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When you look at results on mtgtop8, the majority of successful lists do not play them main deck. However, it's nice to see you found two to prove your point instead of looking at the archetype as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

When you look at results on mtgtop8, the majority of successful lists do not play them main deck. However, it's nice to see you found two to prove your point instead of looking at the archetype as a whole.

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I stated that Eldrazi runs Thorn in their 75 and you called that "outdated info". Mainbord or Sideboard was never a topic I touched

I don't get the hyperbole in this thread at all, basically the article just said that Cabal Ritual is too slow for the format right now - which is pretty accurate.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't get the hyperbole in this thread at all, basically the article just said that Cabal Ritual is too slow for the format right now - which is pretty accurate.

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Its as "accurate" as looking at Rite of Flame or Chrome Mox in the context of Chalice @1 or @0. Mind that we are talking about the same matchups. While I don't question the theoretical speed-factor, the advantage gained inverts and bites you (more than ANT), if Chalice & Co land.

I don't think its fitting to just look at the deck under the aspect that you can combo T1 100% of the time, are always on the play (otherwise chalice @0 or tomb into Chalice @1 might happen) and ignore SB games per se (see: The Thorn discussion)

No one is arguing about always winning the coin flip and going off turn 1, realistically speaking TES is half a turn faster than ANT because it uses Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual and has a greater threat density so it can race Thalia, Guardian of Thraban more easily - that is the argument.

I understand and agree with your opinion on Chrome Mox, I play 14 lands and 1 Chrome Mox and don't think I will ever play more copies because they don't meaningfully contribute to your fundamental turn.
For me the best Storm deck is one that is faster than ANT and more consistent than TES right now.

I don't think anyone is ignoring Thorn, it may not be common but it's just another argument for why Cabal Ritual is too slow right now.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

No one is arguing about always winning the coin flip and going off turn 1, realistically speaking TES is half a turn faster than ANT because it uses Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual and has a greater threat density so it can race Thalia, Guardian of Thraban more easily - that is the argument.

I understand and agree with your opinion on Chrome Mox, I play 14 lands and 1 Chrome Mox and don't think I will ever play more copies because they don't meaningfully contribute to your fundamental turn.
For me the best Storm deck is one that is faster than ANT and more consistent than TES right now.

I don't think anyone is ignoring Thorn, it may not be common but it's just another argument for why Cabal Ritual is too slow right now.

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Well, I would be satisfied, if there was a consistent way to adress these locks without folding to the secondary angle these decks bring to the table with their sideboard. You may be able to remove counterbalance but still have to ensure not losing to Clique or Flusterstorm. We have similar with Eldrazis (Thorn, Thought Knot Seer and Warping Veil) and D&T (Revoker, Canonist, Prelate, whatever).

My point in regards to Mox and Rite was more in regards to Chalice. If your opponent drops the Artifact and blocks your 0cc or 1cc spells (aka you being on the draw) your whole plan of trading speed for consistency suddenly becomes a pipebomb for your performance. Thats why I was hinting at the "have to win the coinflip" to evade chalice @0 or tomb into chalice @1.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Well, I would be satisfied, if there was a consistent way to adress these locks without folding to the secondary angle these decks bring to the table with their sideboard. You may be able to remove counterbalance but still have to ensure not losing to Clique or Flusterstorm. We have similar with Eldrazis (Thorn, Thought Knot Seer and Warping Veil) and D&T (Revoker, Canonist, Prelate, whatever).

My point in regards to Mox and Rite was more in regards to Chalice. If your opponent drops the Artifact and blocks your 0cc or 1cc spells (aka you being on the draw) your whole plan of trading speed for consistency suddenly becomes a pipebomb for your performance. Thats why I was hinting at the "have to win the coinflip" to evade chalice @0 or tomb into chalice @1.

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There is nothing either deck can do about a pre-emptive Chalice so who cares? Speed is for dealing with the problems you can race so you only have to deal with 1 angle of attack.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

There is nothing either deck can do about a pre-emptive Chalice so who cares? Speed is for dealing with the problems you can race so you only have to deal with 1 angle of attack.

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Miracles is the very first deck to name which can Fluster/Force and then drop Counterbalance, so the part about "1 angle of attack" is not true. Eldrazi or D&T can drop their hate and then attack your mana. It marks exactly the issue: Several angles of attacking us and we having serious problems recovering from resolved hate.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Miracles is the very first deck to name which can Fluster/Force and then drop Counterbalance, so the part about "1 angle of attack" is not true. Eldrazi or D&T can drop their hate and then attack your mana. It marks exactly the issue: Several angles of attacking us and we having serious problems recovering from resolved hate.

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Speed eliminates angles of attack, if I discard your Force of Will and then go off on the following turn your Counterbalance doesn't matter. I'm not saying every game plays out that way, but that's the philosophy behind being faster.

I really don't know why you're arguing, no one here is advocating anything we didnt already know - just that it's more applicable now.