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Hi, I'm playing quite traditional list with G splash and 1 Krenko. I was concidering adding second Krenko because it has been amazing, but now I'm thinking is it really win more because Jim and Max have done great without it. Is Krenko worth playing?Quote:
Originally Posted by B-rad
I don't find Krenko or SGC to be necessary to the success of Goblins right now, I usually end up wanting a full set of Mogg Fanatics, Mogg War Marshalls and Gempalm Incinerators, and any additional slots are taken by the 5th+ Haste lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by angel882
...because that would just show that your logic is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by B-rad
Given the fact that goblin-decklists with AND without Krenko, as well as decklists with AND without G-splash, are performing well for quite some time now, the only correct conclusion that we can draw is, that it simply doesn't matter too much what your decklists looks in detail as long as your are playing...
(1) 21-24 lands
(2) 4 Wastelands
(3) the 20-24 corecards
Another conclusion that we could draw is that Jim Davis seems to be playing the same decklist like forever and is successful with it.
Stating that not including Krenko or splashing G is not going to get us anywhere if you don't compare the success of such decklists to the success of decklists that are designed differently.
I was going to answer that too, but got lazy and tohught someone would do it for me. Thanks =]Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I just checked the SCG deck database going back to 7/15/12 (M13 was released 7/13).Quote:
Originally Posted by B-rad
Of the 8 Goblins decks to Top-8 since then, 6 have had a Krenko in the MD. The other 2 were Jim Davis this weekend and another Max Tietze (who took 1st place an SCG Open) running essentially the same list.
Tobias Dreger also took 18th at the last GP with Krenko. Anthony Easton took 5th and Cedric Phillips took 11th at the SCG Invitational, both with Krenko.
I am really quite surprised that Jim Davis doesn't run a Krenko, especially considering he already runs 2 SGC's, Skirk and Sharpshooter. He has the Krenko Abuse package but doesn't play Krenko! Apparently his G1 Semifinal match against 12-post took over 60 minutes. Call me crazy, but in a long, draw out match like that, wouldn't you want a Krenko in your MD? Also, he faced Tabernacle in that match. Krenko + Skirk lets you walk right through a Tabernacle, which I'm assuming would have been relevant.
To B-rad's point, I absolutley agree that Krenko isn't a necessity in a competitive Goblins deck (neither is Piledriver), but you cannot deny the fact he's showing up in Top-8s more often than not. Also, I think Krenko would have specifically helped in the last match against a recurring Tabernacle. I believe Jim Davis would have had better odds in the Semis had he run Krenko MD.
Tietze just got his decklist from Jim Davis afaik.
Like everyone is saying it's ridicilous to point toward "no kreno is the right thing" or something equally ridicilous.
Listen to what GobboLord says!
Brad, the fact that you, Max Tietze, and Jim Davis are doing well with a list that has G-splash with no Krenko only means one thing: Jim Davis has a VERY solid list. In fact, compare his list from 2010/07/11: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...118&iddeck=390
He had essentially been playing the same deck for over two years, and his only changes were the inclusion of Cavern of Souls, moving Stingscourger from the SB to the MB in place of Chieftain, and his SB due to the meta. So yes, Jim Davis's list is VERY solid, and had been for a while. But most of us (I'd assume) in this thread believes that there are other avenues we can take with the goblins list. If we all play with Jim Davis's list, there is little reason to have this thread.
Also, I tried out Rakdos Charm at a local tourney (small, only 18 people) and went 3-0. I played against Merfolk, Elves, and Dredge.
Merfolk: I landed some Piledrivers, denied his Mutavaults, and won both games. Rakdos Charm destroyed his Aether Vial in G2, which really made him reconsider this greedy mana-base, because he had Daze and no Islands. I actually kept Rakdos Charm in to fight against Jitte.
Elves: He comboed off in turn 4 and I killed him with Rakdos Charm. On game two, I have Lackey, Krenko, and SCG on turn two with the help from Rakdos Charm, and he conceded.
Dredge: On G1, I had a turn 1 Skirk Prospector and a turn 2 MWM to keep his Bridge at bay. He overextended on turn 4, dumping his entire hand, and I used Rakdos Charm for the win. On game 2, I used Surgical Extraction on his Ichorid, destroyed his bridge a couple times, and he never recovered with bad dredges.
I was really hoping to fight the StoneBlade, Miracle, RUG, and Maverick matchups, but I never had the chance. Overall, I think Rakdos Charm is a really nice card but needs further testing. I also had 3 Dreadbores in my SB that never saw play. I am not sure if it is better than Pithing Needle against Planeswalkers, but with Abrupt Decay, it should be better against BUG Control.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
This is AWESOME! Thanks for this. Man, wanted to be able to see that Elves player game 1 and the Dredge player. Hell, even the Merfolk one. Mad props to you sir. Glad to see you enjoyed the tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I'll be doing more testing with it too.
Mind editing your post with the list you used? Thanks.
Nice tech! Out of curiosity, how many copies were you running and what did you cut for them? Did you run other grave hate in the board, or were you relying only on the charms?Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
This was the build I used.
//Lands (23)
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Mountains
4 Badlands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
//Core (20)
//Other (17)
3 Rakdos Charm
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
//Sideboard
2 Electrickery
2 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Dreadbore
3 Duress
3 Earwig Squad
I am purposely playing with three Cavern of Souls because while it is great against blue mages, it is REALLY annoying when not facing against them. Either ways, most people just SB many of their counter spells away for removal spells because they assume I have a playset of Lackey, CoS, and Vial, which further devalues CoS. I also think Wastelands are more important than CoS in more match-ups, so I have a full playset.
I have Goblin Chieftain in my MB because I feel Krenko needs the extra haste enabler to make him really good.
I have two Electrickery in my SB because I was expecting Elves and DnT.
I decided to SB in 3 Dreadbore at the last minute in place of Pithing Needles, just to try it out, but never did. The ability to kill a planeswalker seems very powerful to me, especially against list like Caleb's Tezz Control and BUG Control.
I decided to bring in 3 Duress and 3 Earwig Squad as my SB choice against combo decks and SnT decks. Again, I never had the chance to test it out.
Honestly, as long as you are playing with the Core 20 cards, you will probably do okay. You can even go with Cedric Phillips's Winstigator route and replace Chieftains with Warchiefs.
ScatmanX and me did the testing for you. This SB tech didn't improve the MU in the slightest. Both of us found that Earwig Squad's was highly overrated in the Esperblade and Younameit-and-Tell MUs. It did fine against UWx Miracles though...Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Whenever I start thinking about adding non-creature spells to the deck, I come to the conclusion, that its kinda useless.
With the printing of Cavern, the opponent will have lots of counter on their hand, just waiting for a target.
I didnt test much, but how often you can resolve those spells against blue?
You make it seem like you will have Cavern every game, which is not the case. Not every deck you sideboard agaisnt is going to have counterspells anyway, and many will side out most of their CSpells against you or still have targets if you play Vial or don't have Caverns. Realistically there are some cards that using non-creature cards to deal with them is just better and certain effects are hard to replace. It's hard to replace duress effects on a creature, Krosan Grip on a creature, or even the strongest GY hate cards on a creature (Although one might argue Faerie Macabre is good GY hate for this deck). As such, it's certainly reasonable and probably preferred to run non-creatures to deal with specific problems.
As for Earwig Squad, I agree with him being highly overrated. In general anything you want out of their deck you can just handle by trying to attack their hand. However, answering if and how much you want to attack your hand is a different question.
Also, I noticed Perishes are in the black splash, are those primarily to deal with Maverick? Or are they needed vs. RUG or some other MU as well?
I really like the argument Max Tietze (and Jim Davis) brought here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10732
You got just 2 Fatty-Slots to not rape your Curve and if you're in a meta with less Maverick and pyroclasm effects, 2 Siege Gangs seem to be the right call 4 me.
I tried Rakdos Charm and nearly never had it, when i wanted to, would always prefer more Goblins for constancy and because you can tutor/find em, when you need em. Besides i don't like the Manabase it requires to run them.
Solid sb plan against Omnitell. I liked that he picked a couple MUs and built his sb to be strong against them. Sure he's a dog to dredge and storm, but dredge and storm haven't been showing well these days. It seems like a good plan for a long ass tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgar
I also appreciate that he's leaving in Vial for the Omnitell MU. I've had a tendency to side out Vial against fast combo, but it recently occurred to me that you still need vial to play free goblins so you can keep mana open for casting interactive hate cards, like REB and Kgrip.
The list itself is super simple and intuitive. But there should still be 1 Krenko in it.
Besides the match-ups you mention, it ocurred to me that this could be a playable card against canadian, as a non-targeted piece of removal for mongeese. Also, vs storm, it disables one of their win conditions (empty the warrens).Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
thoughts?
Is electrickery better than Forked Bolt? Except for killing a Nimble Mongoose, your opponent needs to have at least three creatures for electrickery to do anything more than Forked Bolt would. More importantly though, Forked bolt can deal with two X/1s for one less mana, and can kill X/2s like Stoneforge Mystic.
I understand electrickery is a very different tool, since the overload ability won't target any creature. It can deal with hexproof/shroud, while forked bolt deals targeted damage just as any other removal spell (e.g. pyrokinesis). Not to mention the interaction with empty the warrens, as mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I might still keep one or two Earwig Squads in my SB against troublesome spells like Engineered Plaque, Pernicious Deed, Planeswalkers, Humility, Moat, etc.Quote:
ScatmanX and me did the testing for you. This SB tech didn't improve the MU in the slightest. Both of us found that Earwig Squad's was highly overrated in the Esperblade and Younameit-and-Tell MUs. It did fine against UWx Miracles though...
Often enough to be relevant. It is just one of those cards that people do not expect. As GoboLord said a week ago, rouge strategy works. It actually gets better post-sideboard because many players are prone to sideboard away some of their counterspells for removal spells. And if players decide to keep more counterspells in the MB because of Rakdos Charm, it works out better for us because our goblins can get around counterspells.Quote:
I didnt test much, but how often you can resolve those spells against blue?
I live in PA so many of the usual players actually went to the SCG last Sunday, which was the reason for the low turnout. A lot of the players I was expecting were not there. But yes, Perish is used against Maverick, Elves, Bant, and especially NO RUG, which are relevant in my meta. When it comes to SB in general, I change it almost every week, depending on the matchups I am expecting. I will probably not bring Perish for SCG for example, as none of the decks I just listed are quite relevant in the current SCG meta, with the probable exception of Maverick.Quote:
Also, I noticed Perishes are in the black splash, are those primarily to deal with Maverick? Or are they needed vs. RUG or some other MU as well?
So having a 1/1 split between Krenko/SCG or having 2 SCG is a meta choice. I can see that argument.Quote:
You got just 2 Fatty-Slots to not rape your Curve and if you're in a meta with less Maverick and pyroclasm effects, 2 Siege Gangs seem to be the right call 4 me.
Yeah, cutting a set of Ports and a CoS just to support enough lands to consistently cast Rakdos Charm's RB is a huge blow for out control plan. However, I am playing with 30 goblins MB, and I feel perfectly comfortable with that. I do feel Rakdos Charm is a meta choice, so mileage may vary.Quote:
I tried Rakdos Charm and nearly never had it, when i wanted to, would always prefer more Goblins for constancy and because you can tutor/find em, when you need em. Besides i don't like the Manabase it requires to run them.
I am still trying to find more uses for Electrickery. It is a cute out vs. Empty the Warrens for sure. I don't see Electrickery useful against Canadian MU because it is only useful in the early games, and they can reach Threshold quit efficiently. I rather attack their graveyard to shrink both Tarmogoyf and Mongoose.Quote:
Besides the match-ups you mention, it ocurred to me that this could be a playable card against canadian, as a non-targeted piece of removal for mongeese. Also, vs storm, it disables one of their win conditions (empty the warrens).
Electrickery is a great mass removal against decks full of x/1 dudes, like DnT, Maverick (?), Infect.dec (make them waste a pump spell), Goblins, ETW, Elves, UB Faeries, Team Italia, etc. While it also get's around Shroud/Hexproof, I do not find utility as relevant. It kills Argothian Enchantress, I guess. At worst, it is a Lava Dart.Quote:
Is electrickery better than Forked Bolt? Except for killing a Nimble Mongoose, your opponent needs to have at least three creatures for electrickery to do anything more than Forked Bolt would. More importantly though, Forked bolt can deal with two X/1s for one less mana, and can kill X/2s like Stoneforge Mystic..
I really can't see how Electrickery can be any better than Sharpshooter or Pyrokinesis. The most probable shroud targets would be Mongooses, and they aren't much problem when they are 1/1s.