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Uh, what? I find the Esperblade matchup overall positive - they are a mediocre creature deck and a bad Jace deck.
Just like with tempo, get yourself to the late-game and you will win. Red blasts come in, as well as explosives or wear // tear or whatnot. forces come out, shave StP
Esper is heavily favored for miracles. Ive played a lot of games on both ends of the matchup. The game will go long/grindy and miracles has a way better late game than esper. Counterbalance and entreat are amazing in the matchup. Really the scariest card esper can play is lingering souls (which most cut for TNN) or jace (which we can just REB). I usually take out 4 FoW and a 2 StpS in favor of stuff like EE, disenchant, REB, and maybe 1-2 sweepers. If you dont have the 3rd entreat, venser/clicque maindeck, bring those in too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I've stopped reading here for a while, because of the lack of good players that know what they're talking about. Reading the first few posts of this page made me regret coming back and reading here but i was brave and didn't stop reading, and finally i was rewarded.
People HERE in the Miraclethread that post useful stuff. amazing!
Especially the last post. 100 % agree. Esper is not favored against us if you play a good list and know how to SB.
Just one thing i want to add. From my experience many Esper pilots (Magic Online, local tournaments) play Meddling Mage and Cliques in the SB so i like to keep 1-2 Swords to Plowshares, but as already mentioned it's probably the weakest card.
Maybe I just dislike Spell Pierce for Miracles in general, but I would definitely board out Pierce before I'd board out Plows. For most lists, I'd go something like this: -4 FoW, -2 Pierce for +3 REB, +2 Supreme, +1 Disenchant. Like others have said, resolve Counterbalance and make it to the late game. I don't know if I love Moat against them; Clique and Jace are both legitimate threats out of Stoneblade.
Agree about Spell Pierce not being good in Miracle, but it's somehow necessary.
I would say that Spell Pierce hits a lot more relevant stuff than Swords against Esper. creature beatdown is not really scary unless they have a SoFI but then i would say that the SoFI is the problem, not the creature.
Here's the siddeboard i'm currently running:
Engineered Explosives
Red Elemental Blast x3
Flusterstorm
Counterspell
Pyroclasm
Rest in Peace x2
Ethersworn Canonist
Meddling Mage
Wear/Tear
Celestial Purge
Blood Moon
Entreat the Angels
Boarding Plans against StoneBlade:
- 3 FOW, - 1 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Rest in Peace (if no lingering souls), -1 STP, -2 Spell Pierce
+ 3 REB, + 1 Counterspell, + 1 Entreat, + 1 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Wear/Tear, +1 Flusterstorm
Esper Matches then to be grindy. Will usually drop pierces for Hard Counters. Keeping 1 FOW in for CB against opposing Batterskull & FOW.
Entreats, Clique & Counterbalance are our biggest trumps in the match.
I love pierces in miracles because exactly like StpS, they excel at letting the deck do what it does best: survive to the late game so it can blow every other legacy deck out of the water by getting insane value out of the "better versions" of pierce and StpS, Counterbalance and terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Are pierces and swords weak in miracles? Absolutely, but they are needed so the "strong" cards get a chance to be strong.
If your going to lose to esper its going to be cause they resolve a turn 1 thoughtseize on your top, FoW on your second one, cast a clique eot 3 turn and jace turn 4 (or some other powerful early start). Pierce and swords are the cards that stop those kinds of plays, not our "good cards" like EEs, entreats, counter balances.
In the esper matchup, I think cutting 2 stps (leaving 2 still in the maindeck) is right. You dont need 4 of them, but you do need some. I think post board (against TNN esper) you want 2 StpS, and 5-6 EE/terminus/verdict/moat, whichever you happen to be running. EE is amazing against them since it hits equipments and pneedles too. Moat is good, but not the nuts. Most esper lists these days only runs 2 MAX, usually only 1 MD, 1SB, and often less. They can also vindicate/disenchant it.
I guess I just have terrible luck in the matchup then, because every time I play the Miracles v. Esperblade matchup I always feel like its a struggle to actually win the game outside of a timely entreat or a quick countertop combined with a sweeper.
What exactly is giving you trouble?
Went 4-0 with the following:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords
1 Verdict
3 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Ponder
1 Unexpected Absence
3 Jace
//
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 REB
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
2 Wear/Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Beat Bant blade, Patriot Blade, Dredge, and something else.
Tech UA plays: Flipping a Clique onto my Library to counter a 3 for Counterbalance , protecting a Counterbalance from Abrupt Decay, rebuying my own Snapcaster for more value.
Overall, I really like the list. EE in the board could also be Nodes. Cutting the land from 23 to 22 has had SOME effect, but I've also really liked the Ponder. Snapcaster is over performing for sure.
-Matt
Matt, I'm running the same 58/60 with you (-1 Ponder, -1 UA, +1 CB, +1 Pierce) but my sideboard keeps shifting. I've tried a sliver bullet enchantments version for a while based on Carsten's article but I'm still not sure if it's just too cute. How was your sideboarding like? Also, how did you like the 1-of UA? Does "in response to your fetch, ship your Liliana" scenarios come up often enough?
If you're already on the Tutor plan, bullets are always good out of the board. Having the whole plan out of the main though seems very sketchy. You're doing a lot of work and wasting a lot of space for what is generally very little value. The deck is incredibly slow, and most of the things you get with Tutor are easily answerable in G2. A quick Chain of Vapours -> combo and your RiP (or whatever) is pointless. Having additional copies of the more powerful answers and keeping the origional core of your deck intact seems like a much more solid option.
Actually I had the Tutor plan in the SB. My approach is having a flexible, well rounded maindeck with Snapcasters and all, and bringing in silver bullets along with Enlgihtened Tutor from the board to hate out certain things. Canonist plus a couple Flusterstorms against storm, Humility plus REBs against S&T, RiP plus Blood Moon against BGx. I am thinking, instead of chaning gameplans post board and relying on hate could I improve my game with more straightforward tactical additions from the board. That's why I was interested in Matt's sideboard.
I disagree. Even the start you mentioned is only a 3/1 and a Jace in play, with them having 2 cards left in hand:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
1) Land
2) Land
3) Land
4) Land
5) Jace
6) Force of Will
7) Pitched Card
8) Vendilion Clique
It's a strong board, but you're at 17 life, and only 2 Tops have been expended. What about the other 9 cards you've drawn this game?
My point is, Esper is a value-bear, juniors Control deck, and can only grind out matches. Miracles is the real deal and features playsets of Counterbalance, Jace, and Terminus. And then there's Entreat... I'm more worried about card advantage and the long game than about them getting the jump on me. I board out all Spell Pierces and Forces in order to not have dead cards or other sources of card disadvantage. I used to cut a single Swords, but I don't even think that much is right, since it always comes down to a game of whack-a-mole, where every creature can carry equipment, and the last one standing can kill you.
My theory is that the only way you lose is when you draw dead cards. You untap onto that Clique + Jace board and topdeck things like lands, Spell Pierce, or Force of Will. Any other card in your list can handle one or the other. Maybe I'm wrong, but the only thing I would consider keeping Spell Pierce in for is Jace, and that's just a 2-of. I tend to sideboard differently than most people, and look at each card in my deck in terms of the amount of game-winning threats it answers. Cards that are dead 30-50% of the time and at best trade with 1 mana spells I tend to not like. Though I suppose with newer lists running Liliana's alongside Jace, Pierces are going to trade up the curve more often.
What are you boarding in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Esper StonebladeQuote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
6 In
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
6 Out
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Impulse
This is basically how I feel about all the UWx Stoneforge matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
You aren't bringing in any particularly big bombs for Enlightened Tutor; is it mainly there to ensure Top/Counterbalance comes online (with some potential upside of flipping a 3 drop with ETutor -> ORing) or did you just not have anything else relevant to bring in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
It comes up often enough, at least locally. Everyone who can will run Liliana, and it's just SO hard for us to remove it that I'd really rather have any edge. I'm currently running five 3-drops in hopes of hitting Liliana off Counterbalance, but it doesn't always work out. Having anything is fine. Runed Halo might be an alternative out of the board for her, but the decks playing her also run Decay, which means it may not be as useful as we'd like. The "real" answer is Leyline of Sanctity, but I can't dedicate the slots for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
So for the boarding, this was my board:
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 REB
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
2 Wear/Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
So for Dredge, I did:
-2 Snapcaster Mage
-2 Clique
-4 STP
-1 Entreat the Angels
+1 EE
+1 Moat
+2 RIP
+2 Tutor
+3 REB (for Breakthrough)
For Patriot, I did:
-3 Jace
-4 Force of Will
-2 Clique
+2 Wear/Tear
+1 EE
+1 Moat
+3 REB
+2 E. Tutor
For Bant: (I felt really good about this. turns out, he had Trygon Predator that I only saw in Game 3, so I would have boarded all the Blasts in. In games 1 and 2, I mostly got beaten down by Gw creatures, and only saw TNN once or twice).
-3 Jace
-4 Force of Will
+2 Wear/Tear
+1 EE
+1 Moat
+2 REB
+1 E. Tutor
I've always liked the tutor package in this deck since some of the stuff you can bring up is ballbusting, and it plays well with Top and Counterbalance. Sure, it is slow, but you're a slow deck.
----
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 REB
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
2 Wear/Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Right now, I feel my board is decently well rounded, but is a tiny bit weak to Show and Tell. I'll explain.
Against Elves, the matchup is very nice. You have a bazillion removal and Counterbalance. Great. Out of the board, you just make it better with EE, Moat, and Canonist. Awesome.
Against Dredge, you have Rest in Peace, and ways to search it out Turn 1 for casting on Turn 2, which is what you want. EE helps to clear tokens.
Against Jund, you have RIP to shut off their Deathrite, Goyfs, and Punishing Fires. Moat locks out their creature attacks, EE clears Liliana, Goyf, Sylvan, etc. Needle also shuts down Liliana.
Against TES and ANT, you have Counterbalance/Top maindeck. Out of the board, you bring in tutors to search it out if need be, as well as Canonist. Flusterstorm is there as a hedge since Cabal Therapy usually names Force of Will and is a nice stopgap, especially when coupled with Snapcaster. Against ANT, you also have RIP.
Against the BUG decks, I haven't played as much as I should, but Needle shuts out Liliana, EE clears dudes, and REB helps shoot their Delvers. This is a matchup where you could easily punk a player with Blood Moon, should you feel the need.
Against Patriot Blade, I take out stuff that's really weak and leaves me disadvantaged (Force/Jace) and opt to bring in Wear/Tear for Equipment, Moat to block out TNN (Delver is their only flyer), EE to hit everything, and REB for TNN/Delvers.
Against Deathblade, I feel like I want to do the same thing.
Against SnT, you have Venser, Wear/Tear, Flusterstorm, REB, and Needle. It's not as much as I'd like, but being this slow against a 2-card combo deck will just be that way.
-----
I was briefly considering turning Moat into a Humility or a Bridge, but this causes some problems/raises issues:
1) Against BGx, Decay removes Bridge, which isn't as nice, but you have an extra 3 to flip to Liliana.
2) You like having a full hand, so Bridge won't be AS effective.
3) Bridge is better against SnT, but Humility is better than Bridge.
4) Humility does nothing against Equipment and neuters your own Cliques and Snapcasters/
It's really a fine balance for that slot because it depends what you plan on playing. The Moat stops MOST decks in the format from attacking you, especially True Name. The most common guy that flies is Delver, which is dealt with hopefully via Counterbalance, but if not, REB and STP also kill it, all while not messing with the Angels, Snapcaster, or Clique. Plus, you get to play a $300 piece of cardboard and beat your opponents.
Just my thoughts.
-Matt
Maindeck is 59 cards, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
Yeah, I'm bad at decklists. I missed the two Spell Pierces.
-Matt