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Yeah, the Tutor isn't so great in this matchup. It's basically either sets up Counterbalance + Top or fetches removal for any given card, while forfeiting a draw step. I'm not positive that the second EE in the board shouldn't come in, instead. I run only 3x Counterbalance maindeck, so this tends to come in a lot of matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Your cuts here really confuse me. I've found Plows to be almost necessary and Snapcaster/Clique to be actively good. I'd probably cut all 3 Entreats, all the Counterspells, and all the Counterbalances.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
A lot of times Dredge will try to slow their game down if they expect RIP and try to grind you with Ichorids. Sometimes you can even Plow a Narcomeoba to stop Therapies or Dread Returns before they leave their draw step.
Flash creatures are great at tossing in front of attackers to exile Bridges. In addition, you can use Cliques to steal dredgers if they are light or to clear out any Nature's Claims in their hands. The nonbo between Snapcasters and RIPs rarely comes up because the games are so quick, but even if it does then Ambush Viper is not the worst.
I'd probably switch out the Pierces for the Cliques. They trade with Delver and they steal equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I was doing all of this on the fly considering I didn't know I was playing Dredge that night until he opened with it, but here's my reasoning:
The end all be all is to hit Rest in Peace, no ifs, ands, or buts. Great. Glad we have that established. To protect it, I want all my counters in. After I Rest in Peace, I want to lock out any bounce or removal with Counterbalance.
I want to stop Breakthrough. I really hate Breakthrough. Let's board in some REB's.
Moat and EE neuter their tokens, excellent, I want those.
Entreat? When am I going to Entreat? Oh right, when I win. I'll shave one.
Snapcasters? Pretty crappy with Rest in Peace in play. Let's take those out. Cliques? When am I going to want to Clique?
STP isn't great if they get a zombie horde, and 1-for-1'ing them isn't really going to get me anywhere (sometimes yes, othertimes, no).
-------------------
Whether this was wrong or right, that was, legitimately, my line of thinking last night. It's likely not optimal, but the games still went well. I think Counterbalance is fine against Dredge since it shuts off the bounce, and if they go on the "just play dudes and beatdown" plan under a Rest in Peace whilst they dig for bounce or something, Counterbalance helps seal the deal.
Jace is likely strictly worse, so I'm not sure why I didn't board him out. Absent is also really balls here. Not a ton of value to be had. In hindsight, I would go:
-3 Jace
-1 UA
-1 Counterspell
-1 STP
-1 Entreat the Angels
-2 Clique
+1 EE
+1 Moat
+2 RIP
+2 Tutor
+3 REB (for Breakthrough/Chain of Vapour)
If I'm going to have a creature that I want to flip for Counterbalance and flash in to block, I'd rather have the one that costs less (and is 2 mana). I wasn't on that frame of mind last night, I'll tell you that. I know Cliques can steal stuff, but maybe I'm just a sucker for them Angels. You could likely bring out all your Enreats to keep the Cliques in, but I'm a huge fan of Entreating to win. I'm likely just a bit biased in my playstyle.
As for Patriot, I'll try keeping the Cliques in.
Either way, I'm 7-0 or so now. Hooray?
-Matt
Yeah Jace definitely isn't an allstar against Dredge; I can easily see leaving in Counterbalance over him. Some Dredge players will still go for the maximum speed kill post-board, and usually against those you don't really care if they remove the RIP because you've already wiped out the whole of their engine. On the other hand, some Dredge players play a very patient game, especially after seeing/suspecting RIP. Those are the games where Swords and Cliques will really shine.
Definitely congrats on the streak though. ;) Real control welcomes you back.
Woah, I was pretty sure I read 2 CS and 2 Pierce. Good eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heresy
Thanks for the insight Matt. I might try a similar board but switching Venser for an Oblivion Ring to fit the silver bullets bill.
I was going to say the same things than Drza about your plan against Dredge but i guess everything has been said now.
For the Patriote matchup, i would also keep Vendilion Clique here. I dislike E. Tutor because card disavantage is really bad here. I still like one or two Jaces for the late game... but maybe i'm a bit too much fan of Jace to be realistic.
About Bant, were you talking about Sam Black's version ? It's pretty hard to have a well-defined plan against Bant because there is no standard version imo. Anyway, i would keep at least two Jace in this matchup. Spell pierce might not be the best against agressive version.
How has been Moat for you ?
Did you try adding a 5th and/or 6th sweeper ? (BUG, Patriote, Elf, DnT, Merfolk, Goblins, RUG etc...)
Was UA really worth the slot ?
Did anybody try a singleton Teferi's Response in the Sideboard? I would imagine boarding it in against Port Wasteland Decks (DnT, Goblins), the Jund Loam deck because it usually assembles Wasteland/Loam and actively needs to destroy Karakas, and Sinkhole/Wasteland decks. I know that both Goblins and Sinkhole Decks are at an all time low, but the card should be a complete blowout if resolved against anything (pretty much like Ancestral Recall).
after some test Massacre is often "overkill" with 4 Terminus EE and Moat/Humility.
But Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood are stellar. Thoughtseize/Duress best black card here
It was useful when RUG Delver was popular (stifle + wasteland). Now it's only useful against DnT since RUG Delver players are switching out. I don't think you should be concerned enough to run it against Goblin or Jund Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Luck
Comments like this are making me believe you should be playing Esper stoneblade and should post it in other thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
In dredge MU, I disagree on the Clique, Clique gets you to advance a card, which might be the E.T./RiP. Clique can also ambush opponent's narco or whatever, effectively removing bridge. Removing bridge is Huge. Counters are only useful in the beginning, once they start dredging, they have no shortage of cabal therapies. Dredge, once disrupted like losing a bridge or two, is very difficult to recover. That's why Griselbrand Storm (tin-fin) is considered better, if you want to do graveyard decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Teferi's Responste doesn't counter Stifle.
Top 8'd my LGS monthly 1k again.
Last month it was like 45 players I got lucky and played 4 newbies, lost to a veteran playing Sam Black Bant and beat reanimtor to top 8 (and split).
This month it was 25ish players and I ran this list:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
#60
Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Celestial Purge
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Terminus
My Matchups:
2-0 UR Tempo (Eli Kassis brew)
2-0 BWRg Hatebears, discard and removal
1-2 Esper Blade with lingering souls -- Made some bad misplays, a better player would have won this round
2-1 Hypergenesis
ID Burn -- If I had realized he was on burn I might have played him for the free win. He was new to legacy also told me had no idea what this "miracles deck" was and didnt know what countbalance did.
Top 8 split for 125$ each. The prize payout was such that you had to get 1st or 2nd place to get more money than the split gave.
MD mountain might have been a mistake, against Esper I had to mull one hand that would have been nuts if mountain could be a blue source.
Moon was a meta choice, lots of GBx decks in my meta. Literally zero sneak and show, one esperblade and one UWR tempo in the room, so not the "typical" meta. Moon sealed the deal against hypergensis I think.
Needle might have been better as a humility.
Celestial Purge, was awesome, definitely will keep running one. I like the 3 StpS, 1 purge in the SB. Really bob and lacky is the only card needs to die immediately and early in the game and purge hits those, lily, vortex and tons of other stuff.
The E tutor pack seemed fine. I only brought in E Tut against Hypergensis and BWRg For moat and moon. I did not need RIP, but E tutor is basically my RIP #3 and SOMETIMES other good stuff. I dont bring it in often, and never against something like RUG or even D&T. I could live without the E tut though.
The creatures were all awesome. Clique and venser were good as usual and snaps as well. I could see running 1 snap, 2 clique, 1 venser though.
EDIT: Also thanks to Joe and his awesome stream. I had never considered the trick were you have a 1 drop on top, but draw with top anyways to bait a spell. I got 2 free counters against UR using it.
Congratulations for your winning streak :)
A quick question for Moat afficionados and lucky owners :
How has been the card for you ?
Against which decks would you bring it in ? BUG, Jund, Merfolk, Goblins, Deathblade ? , RUG ? , Patriote ?, DnT ?
With UWR Delver, all BUG variants and Deathblade being top tier decks, it might be time to pack up Blood Moon again.
For those who tested the card, which turn did you usually cast the card ? I mean, if you cast it on Turn 3, you're going to have some problems to assemble UU and/or WW to actually win the game with Jace or Entreat and if you cast it when to have RUUW, RUUW, RUUWW with U and W being basics, it might be too late especially against those tempo decks. The real question is : Are those problems overcompensated by the free wins Blood Moon gives ?
It might be necessary to change the manabase this way to maximise the effect of Blood Moon : 10 Fetch, 1 R, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Tundra, 3 Plains and 5 or 6 Islands. Yes, no Karakas !!! wow ^^; . I think there will be a lot of Death n Taxes in Paris and very few Sneak n Show. Moreover, i'm becoming less and less fan of Venser (but still loving Cliques), so that might be ok.
What do you guys think about it ?
Hello,
Blood Moon most of the time is not an free win and yes your are right if you think that the Manabase of our deck is crippled if you cast it on turn 3.
So to cast it safely without crippling the Manabase has 2 major drawbacks for me. first iam to slow since I first have to establish a UUand WW base and
secound the chances after that are to slim to find the Mountain I need afterwards. Yes you can find a Volcanic but I just dont want to rely on fetch and Non basic
Lands against tempo and potntial Sifle decks.
so all in all I don´t think the wins blood moon is giving us are worth the drawbacks exspecialy against the tempo decks. I think B2B is the better choice cause it is blue
and we can play more basics which is leading to a better mana consistency.
Best Regards Teveshszat
I would not play blood moon at a larger event. Like I said, it was a meta choice were people happen to play more decks weak to moon.
The only time I would ever cast blood moon on turn 3 is if resolving it actually wins the game, for example, against a deck like Jund or deatblade that plays little to no basics, if you have the board clear and they tap out for say a lily on their turn 3 and you pierce it, following up with moon on your turn 3 usually means they cant cast spells for the rest of the game. They need to tap out when you cast it, or else decay is just going to happen.
Generally, it comes down later though like after a combat step terminus happens and they tap out for something you counter. If the board is clear, you can play it even if all your lands are non-basics against those decks. They literally cannot win, you still can.
I never bring it in against tempo decks, this includes BUG delver, RUG and UWR. Against those decks, if they are tapped out and the board is clear after turn 3+ you have probably already won. You dont need moon, you need more cards to help you get to that point were the board is clear and they are drawing dead.
The decks I bring it in against are basically, Jund, shardless BUG, deathblade (not regular esper), Bant (although if they are running 4 FoW, 4 Dazes and pierces, I would not bring in e tutor), and crazy ramp/lands deck like MUD, 12post, lands, Loam, scapewish, etc.
Some people will tell you to bring in moon against RUG, death and taxes, esper stoneblade or others I cant think of, which I think is a mistake. Blood moon does actually hurt us pretty bad, mostly the loss of fetches and the need of UU or WW to actually cast powerful things. If casting a bloodmoon does not actually win the game, I think casting it is wrong.
Thank you for sharing your point of view.
I'm not sure about B2B though... it can be easily killed by REB against UWR, RUG and Jund. Sure, it's still awesome against BUG, Deathblade but not an instant win and it can be killed by Abrupt Decay...
Hi All!
I am over the National Legacy League Top8 I mentioned in this thread before. That is a five event league and a top8. There was no time limit and 3 games had to be won.
This is the list I played. The basic of it was constructed by Picely89 in last April the changes and sideboard plan was inspired by Einherjer’s list and my predictions for this specific metagame.
2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Myscic Gate
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Mountain
My first opponent was actually not with Landstill - I guessed before - he played RiP-Helm Miracles. My first opponent used to play Goblins during the League so he is not so familiar with control decks as I am that is why I expected to beat him in a „mirror”.
I won 3-1. It took 3 hours all the other guys were waiting for us. The four ReB effects were amazing! I won once with Jace once with Entreat beat down once with Snapcaster plus Clique beat down.
I boarded in:
2 Flusterstorm, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Wear // Tear, 1 Venser, Shaper Savant,1 Mountain
Out: 4 StP, 3 Terminus, 1 Supreme, 1 Entreat.
I changed the Entreat for an Island after the standing become 2-1 after he won because I felt that I need more pressure.
So I was in top 4.
Than I played against Merfolks. His pilot played RUG and Patriot during the League. It was a very close/tight game. He won 3-2 but it could have been the other way as well. I had problems with the sideboarding it was very difficult to take out so many things. That is way I made the mistake of sideing out 2 Swords but later I brought them back.
Side in:
2 Pyroblast, 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Wear // Tear, 1 Supreme Verdict, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Venser, Shaper Savant, 1 Mountain
Out:
4 Fow, 2 Counterspell, 3 Counterbalance, 1 Island after I realized that he is not playing Wastelands.
This guy become the second, a Jund player won the League.
Because of the pricing we played for the third place. My opponent was an experienced Sneak and Tell player. He played Reanimator as well during the League.
I won 3-0. ReB-s and Wear//Tears were great! He had some bad draws as well but I was in control during each of the games.
Side in:
2 Flusterstorm, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Wear // Tear, 1 Venser, Shaper Savant,1 Mountain, 1 Pithing Needle
Out:
4 StP, 3 Terminus, 1 Supreme, 1 Entreat, 1 Plains, 1 Ponder
Altogether I think this is a very potent deck. A better player could have won the top8 with this list thought I could stay focused all day long and did not make very big mistakes. I still have problem with the time limit. During this event it did not matter - because of the no time limit rule, that is why I choose this deck for today - but during a GP I would not dare to play this deck.
So I wanted to share my happiness with you. I play Legacy for less than one year and I could reach such a good result with this deck. Reading this topic helped me a lot. Thank you!
I managed to buy a moat last month, and even though i didn't played much since, I had some clear results with it in the few games where it came up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333
Since my meta isn't very combo-oriented, it's very effective. Many decks simply cannot deal with a resolved moat in game 1. And even post-board, some archetypes like elves, merfolks or goblins have no way to get rid of it. In those MU, moat is gg.
I cannot speak for the BUG, Jund or DnT MU : I haven't had the chance to play against it yet with moat in the 75. But i think that even if landing moat wont be as explosive as in the tribal MU, I believe it will often gives you enough time to setup another plan
. I play moat maindeck, and I only board it out when it's clearly useless or if I absolutely need slots to deal with a specific threat (given the price of the card, it's kind of something you wanna play as often as you can. But maybe it's just me...). Maybe someone can provide more feedback about those MU/situations?
Regards,
Spaker
When TNN first came out I thought moat would be a must have, but as UWR tempo has become more refined, they are now running 4 spell peirce, which makes moat near useless against them. Verdict is far better in that matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333
Moat has been decent for me, but nothing crazy, it is just a SB card for me. Its great against Jund, deathblade, merfolk, goblins, maverick/junk, and deadguy. There's nothing else I can think of now at least that I would bring it in against. Sometimes its worse than verdict, but against decks like goblins or Jund its difficult for them to beat.
On Blood Moon: You do not have to have basics for Blood Moon to win the game. The most important thing is that you have to assess your ability to beat their current board with your mana base post-Moon. For example, if only Terminus can beat their board and you don't have a basic Plains then Blood Moon can't help. Usually I find that two Islands allows you to beat most post-Moon boards (Jace to bounce their one dude or to race a Liliana, etc). This also means that Blood Moon almost always wins against any empty board, no matter what your mana configuration is.
For the above to be true, do not bring in Blood Moon if you see more than one basic. For example, Blood Moon can be great against Jund, but only the lists that opt out of the basic Forest and Swamp. You don't want to Blood Moon with zero or few basics only to have them drop a Forest and play Bloodbraid.
Blood Moon is best against BUG, 12-Post, American Delver, and Dark Depth. It's sometimes good against Jund and Deathblade, although those decks are slightly more inclined to run basics. Dark Depth and 12-Post can be the exception since they sometimes run a couple basics, however their win conditions are so tied to non-basics that it is fine (just be a little more mindful when setting up).
On Moat: Since few creatures fly in Legacy, Moat is basically good against most creature decks. It requires no real setup outside of getting two White sources and will sometimes just win the game on the spot.
Moat is best against Jund, Shardless BUG, Goblins, Fish, and Elves. It can either be very good or very poor against Death and Taxes, depending on their build. Some lists have opted for more fliers to battle TNN, obviously Moat is less effective here. Moat can also be very good against Dredge; I actually won a game last night against a board full of zombie tokens. By the time he drew his Nature's Claim, I had FoW backup. Against the TNN decks, Moat is sometimes very good, although many times Supreme Verdict is just as good. More answers to TNN are nice, but watch out for decks (like Bant or Esper) that can easily drop their creature plan for a Jace plan; pay close attention to their build.
I cannot stress how Wrong above is. I would certainly classify Delver decks as creature decks. Moat definitely requires set-up. You don't want to run Moat into Daze/Spell Pierce. Moat is no longer the best against Jund and Shardless, because they are all freaking out about TNN and they start to pack in Golgari Charm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Seriously, do you actually put your hope on Moat against Dredge when you have RiP? What an understatement.