[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by zulander

It's just another "oops I win" combo that can be easily accomplished and doesn't require turn after turn of trying to grow a KotR. Sure it's not fool proof, but as it currently stands decks really only have to be able to deal with Knight in current mav builds. Removing 2-3 "cute" cards to put additional pressure on opponents can be the difference between victory and defeat.

having said that, I think it's best to be relegated to the board, I'm not 100% sold yet.

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The strength of this deck is on its rock-solid mana base with lots of basics and simple color fixing.
Adding colorless lands (on top of Wasteland) introduces too much variance on hand that have to rely on finding the initial or subsequent color source.

Talks of adding Dark Depths and at minimum 1 Thespian Stage to achieve a 20/20 that already needs KotR to tutor them up is just a pipedream. If you have KotR, and can activate it, why are you not finding Wasteland to set your opponents back, Horizon Canopy to draw extra cards, or Maze of Ith to attack/use Knight every turn?

More to the point, this all assumes Knight has managed to live a turn. Congrats, you've already beat most Legacy decks at this point.

Agree on the manabase issue. I think it might take more than just taking a stock maverick list and do a -3 +3.

That there are many situations where tapping knight for marit large is stronger than tapping it for bog, fetch, canopy, waste, maze is also obvious so simply saying "If you untap with knight you win" seems a bit optimistic these days. :tongue: I think Maverick is affected by Jund a lot and their ways to interact with Marit Large are limited to a sorcery speed edict and 3 wastelands. Coming up with a build that significantly improves the jund matchup while not losing too much ground versus delver & esper is the challenge.

For what it's worth I think having a random turn 4-5 I win button versus combo does at least not hurt.

True, Abrupt Decay is still a big concern, and adding a fancy three card combo doesn't help to fix it.

I'm skeptical about Depths/Stage being a real thing outside of theory. Most decks in Legacy play hard removal for it via Swords to Plowshares, Karakas, or a simple blocker (Delver/Clique/Lingering Souls).

It just seems fun to get a marit lage and mother of runes in the same deck, especially with wasteland protection for karakas.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I think cutting GSZ is a very bad idea.

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M@verick’s (Luis Viciano’s) list is extremely solid, don’t underestimate it just because of the lack of the conventional GSZ build. Luis is one of the strongest Maverick player of Europe, in the last months he won the Spanish nationals and top8ed the Bazaar of Moxen with his list.

I agree that the conventional GSZ build have to pay too much in terms of consistency to support the combo. Wayfarer build on the other hand can do that with a minimal effort and gains a strong C plan over the equipment + weenie and KoR pressure strategies.

Regarding Abrupt Decay, no other deck can protect your token better than this one with Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper, not to forget the best land tutoring engine in the format for Wastelands against Karakas, as said by ironclad8690, and Maze of Ith.

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Originally Posted by Koby

True, Abrupt Decay is still a big concern, and adding a fancy three card combo doesn't help to fix it.

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Why is decay a big concern? It is an expensive 1:1 removal. Uncounterable does not matter and hitting jitte/library is not that gamebreaking.
Isn't the combo of bolt, punishing, decay and liliana what gives Maverick troubles versus Jund? And in this case a fancy 2 card combo (why 3 card?) could fix that.

Edit: Agree - from my countless games against M@verick I can say that he and his lists are the nuts. Surely the most annoying and difficult Maverick opponents to play against. Anyway after death and taxes winning the GP I think it is out of the question that also vial hatebear builds have their value.

Marit is indestructible anyways, I think Koby was just saying that abrupt decay is a solid option versus other decks in the format and it just so happens to conveniently kill most of maverick's usual threats, thus making there more removal in the format and making a good portion of the format better positioned vs mav.

The thing about Jund is that many of the normal pieces of the deck just happen to be pretty powerful vs us.

Deathrite - Shrinks knight, ramps into very powerful early plays

Bob/Bloodbraid - Usually pretty dang good card advantage

Liliana - nuts vs us.

That being said, I think the matchup is still close to even. I would definitely playtest vs Jund if preparing for a big event.

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Originally Posted by catmint

from my countless games against M@verick I can say that he and his lists are the nuts. Surely the most annoying and difficult Maverick opponents to play against. Anyway after death and taxes winning the GP I think it is out of the question that also vial hatebear builds have their value.

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+1

Generally speaking, this combo reminds me of Iona + Loyal Retainers in old good GW Survival. 2 slots, gamebreaking tech. Why not...

(2 slots considering Wayfarer list)

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Originally Posted by catmint

Agree on the manabase issue. I think it might take more than just taking a stock maverick list and do a -3 +3.

That there are many situations where tapping knight for marit large is stronger than tapping it for bog, fetch, canopy, waste, maze is also obvious so simply saying "If you untap with knight you win" seems a bit optimistic these days. :tongue: I think Maverick is affected by Jund a lot and their ways to interact with Marit Large are limited to a sorcery speed edict and 3 wastelands. Coming up with a build that significantly improves the jund matchup while not losing too much ground versus delver & esper is the challenge.

For what it's worth I think having a random turn 4-5 I win button versus combo does at least not hurt.

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This. Untapping with knight doesn't mean auto-win anymore, especially with lists running 4 DRS. This isn't the land of G/W KotR.dec anymore.

I just picked up the DD combo. I'll be trying it out this week.

What would be the best GW shell to use it in? I do have crop rotations I'd like to use.

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Originally Posted by kingsey

I just picked up the DD combo. I'll be trying it out this week.

What would be the best GW shell to use it in? I do have crop rotations I'd like to use.

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I posted a GWB list that I have been running for a while here with both pre and post rule change lists. It would not be too difficult to remove the 11 or so main deck black cards if you wanted GW only and I went through a lot of the other interactions in the deck in that post as well.

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Originally Posted by kingsey

I just picked up the DD combo. I'll be trying it out this week.

What would be the best GW shell to use it in? I do have crop rotations I'd like to use.

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I will be playing this list:

4 Noble
4 Knight
4 Mother of Runes
2 Pridemage
4 Thalia
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeq

4 STP
2 Jitte
2 Library
4 GSZ
2 Crop Rotation

4 Savanna
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Green Fetch
4 Wasteland
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith

Cheers! Basically -Cradle, -Horizon Canopy, - Gaddock Teeq,- Scryb Ranger, -2 Fauna Shaman, + 3 Thespian's Stage, + 1 Dark Depths, + 2 Crop Rotation. It's basically shaving the cute stuff down and playing only the Maverick essentials with the new combo. Mav decks had too many spare slot and we've all been experimenting with plenty of cute stuff. I think combo > Cute stuff in it's potential to straight up win games.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I will be playing this list:

4 Noble
4 Knight
4 Mother of Runes
2 Pridemage
4 Thalia
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeq

4 STP
2 Jitte
2 Library
4 GSZ
2 Crop Rotation

4 Savanna
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Green Fetch
4 Wasteland
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith

Cheers! Basically -Cradle, -Horizon Canopy, - Gaddock Teeq,- Scryb Ranger, -2 Fauna Shaman, + 3 Thespian's Stage, + 1 Dark Depths, + 2 Crop Rotation. It's basically shaving the cute stuff down and playing only the Maverick essentials with the new combo. Mav decks had too many spare slot and we've all been experimenting with plenty of cute stuff. I think combo > Cute stuff in it's potential to straight up win games.

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I'd try to fit a loam somewhere in there.

I'm telling you that 4 gimped lands really hurts the mana. The idea shouldn't be to rush out a 20/20 so much as to add inevitability. Horizon Canopy, Scryb Ranger, and Teeg are literally some of the most important cards in the deck. Scryb most of all. She does work all day.

Just remember this doesnt actually work right now everyone ;)

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Just remember this doesnt actually work right now everyone ;)

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:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

What do you mean Megadeus? Is there an errata? Please share.

Anyway, I think the best suit for the combo is the Wayfarer/Vial version. I’m testing M@verick BoM list -1 Horizon Canopy -1 Caver of Souls +1 Dark Depths +1 Thespian’s Stage:

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle

3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Pros:

• Only two slots devoted to the combo, thanks to the land tutoring engine provided by Wayfarer in addition to KotR
• Minimal impact on the manabase
• Minimal impact on the gameplan. You go for the combo only if needed or partially assembled
• Additional land tutoring makes easier finding Wasteland against opposing Karakas/Maze of Ith
• Maindeck MoR AND Sylvan Safekeeper provide extra protection for the token

And the intrinsic advantages of the Vial version:

• Greater card advantage than GSZ build (Wayfarer)
• More resilient to counters (Vial)
• More adaptive to opponent's plan: full equipment options from SFM
• More adaptive to opponent's plan: better land tutoring engine
• Broader hate bears pool and anti-combo options

Did anyone try Lightning Greaves instead of one of equipment - it has good synergy and additional it can be suprising playing wayfarer, equip, using it, fetch combo, reequip -> win :]

@Morte
He means: Don't try this in real life before July 13.

I agree with your first approach in principle, but I would probably not remove a land mana source for Depths.
I would probably remove Maze of Ith or a non-land card instead.
I would also try to fit in the 4th Knight of the Reliquary since, if I can fetch up a 20/20, who cares about Deathrite Shaman.

That's what I like about the combo. When you're facing common gravehate like Deathrite/Scavenging Ooze etc, which munch up your lands, you get to have an alternate win condition. I'll be experimenting with 2 different packages. One is the 3 Stage/1 Depth/2 Crop Rotation/2 Wayfarer heavy combo build and the other is the 2 Stage/1 Depth/2 Wayfarer light combo build. I think each Mav deck at least needs 1 Stage/1 Depths just for KOTR to search out as an alternate win. Also once the combo is in the deck, I think Maze can be safely relegated to the SB. To be honest, Maze has been used more as a Pseudo Vigilance buff for Knight more than for warding off attackers. Since GW is usually the agressor, Maze is a dead draw very often. I think Dark depths can safely replace Maze and Thespian stage can replace some other non essential lands (Like Cavern of souls etc). Also I've added cradle back into the deck because it is just so powerful and very useful as a mana bump when you have KOTR on the table.