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I ve just play Vs uwr delver with 4 melding mage / daze pierce fow ... just a mess :/ pyroblast can be counter silence for pyro i have to go off same turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
i think xantid could be helpfull in this case but finally not because of lighning bolt
i fact i consider the option to add tendrils main because of melding mage always on burning wish
i got lost somewhere :)
I've played that matchup with EtW and ToA in the Main after boarding at times. Won many more with EtW ... subjective results. Used to Ad Nauseam into removal and proceed as usual *shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaycounet
+1 AgreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I really do not think he had more than 4 answers vs EtW post side, even their answers vs EtW are slow 3mana only 2 with only 2 mana, so that I would leave EtW instead of Tendrils, also the synergy with therapy is wonderfull.
The pyro seems ok but not as polivalent and depending on the BUG control build.
I'm not sure if putting in the single T.Seize instead of 1 pyro would be ok then leaving the side with no discard options. I would make only these 2 changes but always depending on the build, I know the spanish meta well...
A couple of Examples:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12501&iddeck=91633
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76529
But for sure:
- Xantid is nonsense to side in.
- A.Decay is also nonsense unless you see some kind of permanent hate like Chalice. not expected from BUG control and do not consider Lili or Perni a hate.
Togores hola paisano!
Simple, if you side out that single CoV you have no answr vs Enchanments like Leyline, therefore you'll need to have Revoke Existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by PartyMonster
You could try Simplify, I'm not certain whether or not Show&Tell players are running Leyline of Sanctity or not right now, so game 2 I SB in 4 Xantid Swarm and a Tropical Island in order to have enough green sources of mana and then I can Burning Wish for Simplify for only 1 mana as opposed to 2 at any time in the game if they are playing it instead of SBing in a potentially dead card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
My version of the deck plays 7 discard spells main tho' so I SB against Show&Tell specifically, I also don't think SBing in Xantid Swarm vs UBW is a bad idea game 3 because you should've Cabal Therapied or Gitaxian Probed them enough in order to see whether or not they kept Swords to Plowshares MD game 2 - you guys really need to remember that a match of Magic lasts three rounds -
I'm playing the stock list with -3 Silence, -2 City of Brass for +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Fetchland, +1 Chrome Mox and a SB of 4 Xantid Swarm, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Bribery (or Telemin Performance, but the randomness vs Reanimator isn't necessarily worth the win condition vs Storm) 1 Simplify and 1 Shattering Spree. I'm hoping being faster, having on color disruption and having 7 discard effects will obviate the need for Abrupt Decay or Red Elemental Blast and anything that gets thru' can be taken care of by Burning Wish.
I think Lemnear has a legitimate point about the diversification of SB counters and Silence tho', there's a nice push/pull effect between Silence and Cabal Therapy because if they SB in 1 Spell Snare, 1 Fluster Storm, 1 Divert, 1 Red Elemental Blast as opposed to 4 Fluster Storm for example than Silence gains in strength while Cabal Therapy loses in strength at the same time while Thoughtseize remains constant in 1 for 1 trades. Personally I think having 3 more cards that give me perfect information makes me, and Cabal Therapy, stronger in and of itself - while being faster because you can cast it off of Dark Ritual, more efficient because you can cast it before your combo turn and more stream lined because you can imprint it for black mana on Chrome Mox but the power level of Silence is higher even if it is unwieldly. I just fucking hate dealing with permanent based hate a lot, 4 Meddling Mage and X Vendillion Cliques seem to be in every one's SBs right now.
Push/Pull effect ... like how you call that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I really like the all-discard Layout now that Leyline vanished (-2 CoB, +1 Fetch, +1 dual for me), but Thoughtseize is just ass against Divert. The 1-for-1 trading also bite me at times, especially while being beaten by a Delver and friends. Creating Virtual cardadvantage is essential, and once you peek/probe into a hand that has 2 Spell Snares and an Envelop, Silence remains Badass-protection negating 3 cards for one mana (white Ancestral lulz).
For the Meddling Mages and Cliques we now have Pyroblast ;)
Are you MDing a Tundra for Silence? I've been really, really tempted to SB in a Tundra before in the aggro-control match ups over a Chrome Mox because the number of White sources increases virtually by 4, Bryant would probably have a fit over playing 2 lands in the SB but I think it'd be worth it if you wanted to play with 4 Silence again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The problem with Pyroblast is that unless you're going to hold up mana and trade it aggressively for Brainstorms/Ponders, it's not nearly as good at protecting discard spells as it is at protecting Silence effects from counters because nobody counters Thoughtseize (altho I think they probably should, because it denies giving the opponent information about whether or not they have another counter in their hand and which counter it is for Cabal Therapy).
The other problem is that Pyroblast doesn't behave with Lion's Eye Diamond, and I get into a lot of situations where I have to stop and ask myself whether or not this Pyroblast would've been better off as discard. Discard is usually just better than Pyroblast in any situation where a Counterbalance or Meddling Mage hasn't already resolved. The idea behind playing the discard suite is to never have to play board removal other than Burning Wish, ideally speaking.
Yeah Divert would be rather embarassing vs Thoughtseize, there are down sides no doubt about it.
No, I run 4 Therapies in both build and stick to the Cities if I run Silences as you need the fexibility in colors to run Silence, Xantid and Pyroblast alongside in some matchups. Tundra is even worse than the Tropical atm with more green cards than white in our 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I use Pyroblast very aggressive against Delvers and Brainstorms in response to Therapy. It can catch the upkeep-Clique unlike a discard spell. I never use it to protect my combo tbh (Stifle aside).
I know what your are heading for with the reduced requirement to board removal as it was my idea as well, but streamlining protection is as bad as streamlined hate many opponents of storm learned the hard way with their 16+ non-creature counterspells as we dropped our Xantids to the field alongside Silences. Today players vary their forms of hate against storm for good and discard alone can't cover topdecked hate or a Clique in response to your discard. I don't want to fall into a Trap off all-discard, setup by people running Divert, Leyline or Brainstorm. The biggest upsides of running all -discard is the manabase and additional peek-effects however.
Lets see what future brings
Apart that runing silence helps a lot if your oponent has a sensei in play, cause they can not anymore just hide de counter on top and let your discard be bad.
That is correct. Pyroblast still handles floated cliquesQuote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Damned if you do, damned if you don't considering the only deck that plays Sensei's Divining Top also plays Counterbalance barring an odd copy in S&TQuote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Show and tell plays 1-2 right.
Some ant deck of bom. Also played sensei and 3 flustrrstorm in side. Bug control even without counterbalance plays 1-3 copies of sensei and finaly most versions today of hight tide plays 3-4 sensei in the candelabra version.
In regards to the current discussion...
HotS 6 - Sneak Peek:
Quote:
What future holds...
The following weeks we spent brainstorming about the recent issues on several Facebook-groups, while I was experimenting with options like the full playset of Empty the Warrens in our 75 to force an aggressive gameplan of dumping your hand turn 1 or 2 against tempo-orientated decks or hatebears, which I realized was not a good way to handle the issue, as that gameplan not only neuters Ad Nauseam (which I boarded out because having several 4cc cards in the deck create horrible flips), but also basically leaves you without a chance to win longer running games once you opponent holds countermessures against the quick goblin-army. Another experiment was to replace our protection suit for 3 Thoughtseize + 4 Cabal Therapy in the main with another Thoughtseize in the sideboarded locked as a target for Burning Wish as Bryant Cook started to fell for the playset of Cabal Therapy as well and suggested a solution like 3 Silence + 4 Cabal Therapy (with a Thoughtseize in the SB) which he promptly crowned with a 3rd place in a 187-player-event. The idea behind testing Thoughtseize in place of Silence was to increase the density of effects, that allow, you to see the opponents hand (Cabal Therapy!), while delivering devastating blows against other non-storm combo decks and to dismantle annoying permanents like Thalia, Counterbalance or Thorn of Amethyst before they enter the battlefield, (instead of just being delayed by Silence casted in your opponents upkeep) while being easier to cast off our manabase.
The decrease of Leyline of Sanctity in many sideboards which used to run it before, encouraged me to push the idea of all-discard, but made me question the Xantid Swarms in our sideboard which used to side with the Silences to battle the white Leyline. In fact, decks with Leyline, Griselbrand-powered Reanimator and mono-blue decks like High Tide Combo or Meerfolk where the reason to run the Xantids in the first place. Is Reanimator, High Tide and Meerfolk putting up such numbers that we're still having to have 3 Xantids in the SB? What about Chain of Vapor, which's biggest selling point over Abrupt Decay as a removal in our SB was the ability to handle Leyline of Sanctity? Is Telemin Performance still a candidate in the age of True Name Nemesis warping the meta around it? Does True Name Nemesis affect the metagame in a way that more sweepers (for our goblins) are played or will we see more combo decks? I expect, that the metagame will become even more blue-centric than it was already before the printing of Nemesis, which is making Carpet of Flowers a pretty appealing option to return to our sideboards. The even greener sideboard now required some adjustments to our manabase and I feel that there are several options to achieve that:
Mainboard:
3 Silence
…
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Fetchlands
3 Chrome Mox
Sideboard:
1 Tropical Island
That is the current, favoured configuration to support a sideboard with 3 Xantid Swarms and 2 Carpet of Flowers. However, in most of the matchups these days (aka versus blue decks), a Mox, Ponder and Infernal usually get sided out for the Tropical and 2 Carpets, while against matchups like Reanimator or Show&Tell subtypes which sometimes have Leyline of Sanctity in the Sideboard, the 4 Cabal Therapy are replaced with 3 Xantid Swarms and the Tropical. In both cases you have access to 10 land-based sources of green mana. Still, having a manasource in the SB, you board in near every game feels kind of a waste in terms of space.
As you might remember from the list I'd ran at the BoM, I've already played with a “pre-boarded” 13th land in place of the 3rd Mox. I did this to have a better shot against the masses of tempo-decks I faced in the last months, as a single Wasteland/Stifle was unable to blow me completely out (even after a mulligan). With the numbers of Stifles actually vanishing in regards to True Name Nemesis, the return to 12 lands should be fine. The idea of running Thoughtseize instead of Silence opens new options for the manabase, as there's no need to support a 5th color via City of Brass as this land is painful to run alongside the lifeloss caused by Thoughtseize. Take a look at this manabase:
Mainboard:
3 Thoughtseize
…
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Fetchlands
3 Chrome Mox
That's 9 land-based green sources without having to reserve a sideboard slot for mana, which can be used otherwise (like for a 3rd Carpet of Flowers). Having additional shuffle- and peek-effects come in handy especially with having Ponder, Brainstorm and Cabal Therapy in mind. Sadly, the Tropical is barely a Basic Island in preboarded games and the slightly lower access to green mana leaves me clueless about which configuration to run in the future. The only thing I can say for sure is, that a manabase with 13 lands, 2 Moxen and 3 Carpets create some gamestates in which you are simply flooded. While this was a feature during the days of Daze and Spell Pierce, it appeared pointless after the recent metashift towards Spell Snare to gain an edge in the Equipment-battle across UWx Midrange (Stoneforge Mystic!), against Storm (Infernal, Burning Wish), Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf.
Tease! Does HotS VI include a tourney report as well?
- Intoduction and personal stuff (who is the idiot behind this username)Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
- Bazaar of Moxen review
- Deck development since Oktober
- 7 rounds tournament covered in detail, as you are used to read
(- Bonus sections to the matchups sponsored by friends)
- Verdict
(- Bonus travel advice)
The whole thing just got altered in its style from being a tournament report into a full article
Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Lemnear, I think we're iterating towards the same idea, the difference being I refuse to have a MD Tropical Island over a 4th Chrome Mox because there are no green cards in the MD and the 4th Chrome Mox increases the speed of the deck, which is in keeping with on color acceleration, and helps off set the life loss from Thoughtseize.
I have also been thinking about Xantid Swarm and Carpet of Flower's place in the SB, regarding the absence of Leyline of Sanctity and the diversification of counter spells in your metagame. And while Xantid Swarm is a more cost efficient disruption card with synergy vs Show&Tell, I think the answer may be to replace Xantid Swarm with Autumn's Veil so that we have 4 cards we can SB in vs a Leyline of Sanctity vs Show&Tell's Leyline of Sanctity and we now have 4 more cards that we can SB in vs RUG/BUG that allow us to disregard the variable number and distribution of Flusterstorms, Spell Snares, Envelopes, Diverts etc. Autumn's Veil is on color with Carpet of Flowers most importantly, so when we only have to worry about instant speed threats instead of permanent based threats as well we can play our "Silence" effect and our Carpet of Flowers off of Tropical Island.
So in short, I'm betting on discard MD as the fastest, most efficient, all purpose disruption vs the metagame and pre-boarding vs UWx deck's hate bears in order to cut SB Pyroblasts entirely, and backing that plan up with Autumn's Veil, Carpet of Flowers and Simplify in the SB vs distributed blue counters, Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top and top decks, 8 MD taxing counters and Leyline of Sanctity.
I don't think we need 7 disruption spells that are immune vs Leyline of Sanctity post-board, the villain only has a ~40% chance of opening a Leyline Sanctity and only ~40 of our disruption is discard post-board (4 Autumn's Veil and 3 Thoughtseize, we should cut Cabal Therapy game 3 because people's SB are more variable than their MDs and thus we're at an information disadvantage game 2) while we have Bribery as a more efficient win condition than Inferal Tutor in the SB, the 4th Infernal Tutor in the MD and Simplify in the SB just in case they play Leyline of Sanctity.
So in short, I think Autumn's Veil could be the dark horse that we should be betting on, because even tho' it doesn't benefit from Show&Tell the fact that your "Silence" effect and Carpet of Flowers can share the same Tropical Island is a very big deal if we're going to start cutting gold lands for fetch lands and Chrome Moxes.
Edit: I think I'm cutting Shattering Spree from my SB, vs any deck that plays Chalice of the Void as SB hate I think the coin flip and 7 discard spells are enough already to not bother with a SB space for it.
My proposed SB right now is,
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bribery
1 Simplify
1 Tropical Island
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Carpet of Flowers
with 3 MD Thoughtseize, -2 City of Brass for +1 Fetchland and Chrome Mox.
Conceptually, this makes the most sense to me right now.
While i do like the idea of Veil, i think there's a few key points where Silence is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
- Against Decks running Clique, or Venser. They can still cast them the same turn you go off and strip either a tutor or a win condition from your hand with Veil, but not with Silence. And Venser can still bounce something and force you to tutor badly.
- Xantid is only coming in against decks without removal (or those that would take it out post-board), so the second ability of Veil is somewhat mitigated.
- Again this brings up the miracles match-up, but being able to stop a miracle trigger if you go goblins game 1 (yes a bad strat but if you have no choice...) can be game winning (I've been in this situation before).
I don't think Silence being better than Autumn's Veil vs Vendilion Clique is relevant, you're playing 7 discard spells MD for any deck that plays significant number of Vendilion Clique.Quote:
Originally Posted by SScout
Yes, Xantid can only come in against decks without removal, the point is Veil can come in against any deck with removal. What would you rather play vs RUG when you have a Tropical Island in your SB, Silence or Autumn's Veil? The mana continuity of all of your MD and SB cards being green is really, really important.
Discard is better than Silence or Autumn's Veil vs Miracles therefore a direct comparison between the two cards is irrelevant there.
This isn't heading in the direction I intended. Autums Veil is plain bad and can't replace Xantid or Silence by any means as it doesn't prevent your opponent from Pyroblasting, Lightning Bolting your face during Ad Nauseam/DimRet, Extracting cards during PIF-loops, casting CiP effects with flash (Clique, Venser, etc.), Stifle on storm triggers, Brainstorming, etc.
Veil leaves too many gaps for my taste to seriously consider it. I was trying to get the Tropical out of the Sideboard ... If you still want to run it in the SB, I don't see a reason for now to cut Silence for more discard other than "more-peeks", which is not enough for me.