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Actually, I was thinking Braids, but a few others from a quick search:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Braids, cabal minion
Geralf's Messenger
Murderous Redcap
Bloodhunter Bat
chittering rats
corrupt court official
Bloodhusk Ritualist
fleshbag marauder
Lol on fleshbag... but hey, reusable creature sac outlet...
Just spitballing here.
I like Geralf's Messenger. He is too expensive for a deck running four Pox, but he should be okay in other variants. Including Volraths stronghold is maybe to put too much focus on the recursion, but one Unearth is really nice with messenger.
I think you're accidentally arguing that having a Dark Ritual is worse than having 1 more Swamp, which is probably trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
That's fair, especially when considering that I've see some lists only playing 24 lands (even one posted above with only 23!) There's no doubt that the most polarizing topic concerning Pox right now is 'Dark Ritual or not.' If someone is playing 4 Dark Ritual that's akin to playing 1 extra land in my opinion. So I would play 25 lands and some number of Dark Ritual. If no rituals, probably 26. Missing land drops, and on many turns going backwards on land drops (Smallpox/Pox), means we have to play more lands. The alternative is non-land mana sources, Dark Ritual being the most explosive.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Long story short, I think if someone wanted to make their Dark Rituals relevant in the mid-late game then Beseech the Queen is one way to do it, considering it's unwise to rely on drawing your one-of Abyss/Nether Void/Chains in each matchup you need it. Secondly, I feel like Pox needs something powerful to put it into competition. I haven't really explored a non-Ritual list because without SDT I feel the deck needs *something* busted to do rather than rely on just a fair attrition strategy. To compare it to another attrition style deck, Miracles, they have massive amounts of library manipulation and busted ways to abuse it like Terminus/Entreat. What's the most busted thing you can do in Pox? Turn 1 Liliana/multiple removal/multiple discard. If we play a slower attrition style plan it ends up being just a worse Czech Pile, in my opinion, and definitely worse than Miracles (budget aside.)
Note: I realize that when it had SDT it wasn't doing anything different than other attrition decks, it just had the same access to the same busted consistency card. Essentially it was matching the format's busted plays rather than diversifying it.
Tbh I feel like a well timed Smallpox is the most powerful thing the deck does...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
What has been the consensus on cards like Waste Not and Empty the Pits?
I could imagine some Dark Ritual and Lake of the Dead shenanigans with both...
Can you tap and sac Lake of the Dead to itself to get the 4B with an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play?
I believe the answer is yes. Much like other things (a creature for example, T, Sacrifice a creature: do something), as long as it doesn't say "another" in it, it still works. I'll let others comment on the other things you addressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
Edit - or an intervening if clause: "...if this is still on the battlefield, do something."
It's powerful, but by no means backbreaking like a t1 Liliana. The amount of times a Smallpox has been overcome by opponents has been frequent, at least in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
I've tried Waste Not as a 2-of, didn't see it in a 6 round tournament except a couple of times where it would have been bad. It's a grinding advantage kind of card, one I would suggest using with Raven's Crime and Shrieking Affliction. Empty the Pits I've done as a 1-of, it can be incredible, but I think the ultimate from Liliana of the Last Hope does the same but is much better in the meantime at controlling the board.Quote:
What has been the consensus on cards like Waste Not and Empty the Pits?
I could imagine some Dark Ritual and Lake of the Dead shenanigans with both...
Can you tap and sac Lake of the Dead to itself to get the 4B with an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play?
To lake of the dead: you have to sacrifice a swamp just for it to enter the battlefield, otherwise it doesn't. It's the equivalent of a fizzle. You can then activate it, sacrificing itself if Urborg is on the table. Just be aware you can't get around the sacrifice a swamp clause.
EDIT: Maybe an enchantment-heavy version with Waste Not/Bitterblossom would be good. I'm intrigued because Waste Not seems so good on the surface.
My opinion on waste not is that you want to play it early to get a full effect from it. But, to me, I think these are the crucial moments for hymn/small pox. Waiting a turn and losing the tempo control might slow down this deck too much and put us behind the 8 ball, as it were. Maybe it does ok as a late game draw to take advantage of the LotV discards, but by that point i'd say it should be in the bag already. That said, I haven't tested it.
Mr. Safety, when you ran Waste not, did you find this? Either testing or in the 6 rounder?
Yes, it was awkward. I always wanted to get it down before smallpox/hymn/liliana, but it gave a time walk to my opponents. I wouldn't get enough value out of it after that. Another argument for Dark Ritual, allowing you to do it t1 along with a thoughtseize. I would want a full set of waste not to have consistency though.
Waste Not is a "If only..." type of card. "-If only i get Waste not, ritual, swamp and thoughtseize in my starting hand, then... "
I have drawn mid-game dark rituals. They suck. I've used them to protect a Toxic Deluge from my own Lili, or cast 2 must counters in a turn to get through some counter magic, or just pitched them to a Collective Brutality. I side board them out in many, many match-ups. I think they are important to keep up with fast combo decks, and function fine in grindier match-ups to get ahead early. I've considered cutting them but I think that makes my Storm match-up much worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Just like Waste Not, I think taking a turn to cast Beseech the Queen instead of a disruption spell can be fatal for a deck that lives constantly on the edge of locking out our opponent. Yes I would like to be able to find my Pithing Needle when I need it. That's why there are 4 in my 75. Yes I'd like to be able to find a Toxic Deluge when I need it. That's why there are 3 in my 75. I have no experience with Beseech the Queen or Infernal Tutor in Pox, so I can't compare results. I have some, so perhaps I will give it a shot.
You are probably correct about the Lili activation. I just wanted to pressure his hand and I had multiple ways to kill the Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
I really like Last Hope in the board. She truly only has one ability in my deck (no creatures) but against the decks you bring her in for, it is back breaking. (Delver, D+T, Elves, Aluren) I don't think she is required, and its possible that I swap her for a 4th Deluge or 2nd Bitterblossom in the future, but she often prompts a concession, which is big. It is much better mid-game than cursed scroll because there's no activation cost. You can kill a Thalia and cast a Hymn or smallpox in the same turn. With Scroll you generally either spend your turn casting the card you drew, or activating scroll. Not till the late game when everyone is hellbent can you build up enough mana to multi-task with scroll. Scroll help maintain that state, while Lili helps set up that state, and both eventually win the game. Having both also taxes your opponent's needles/revokers/spyglasses.
This article I just found (or rediscovered?) on discard spells is worth reading, and i thought I should share it.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...seize-You.html
Awesome reports as always everyone. Pox is the coolest.
Dark Ritual, Lake of the Dead, Empty the Pits and Waste Not all require something else to be good.
Dropping Ritual is very recent, but it is was I reaching for to side out game 2 almost always. Gas is better than setting that gas on fire and then being down a card. Somebody in this thread stated something that won me over. To paraphrase: "Ritual, IOK, Hymn is still 3 for 3."
I don't have any Lake experience (in Pox), but it seems to me that unless you are powering out Grave Titans it might not be worth it. Has "Wasteland target" written all over it.
Empty the Pits proved (to me) to be wretched in the top quarter of the deck. Necropolis Fiend also suffers the same drawback, but not as painfully.
Waste Not seems like a pipe dream. Everything you could ever want in life from doing what you want to do with your life anyway? Get outta here with that racket. My suspicious were proven true (enough) by watching Reid Duke jam it online for a while in a brand new post-Top era. It didn't do anything consistent or overly impressive.
I figured I'd weigh in on the Ritual question...
I agree that it's a bad topdeck, and it's card disadvantage. That much is obvious. I'm not sure that ritual, IoK, Hymn isn't still brutally powerful despite being card disadvantage though. What we want to do is trade resources until they have none left and we can ride an engine to victory; trading 3 for 3 is fine on that plan.
I feel like the way that Pox generates that resource advantage, both on the board and in cards overall is more complex than just trading a card for a card. Most of the time it's done by playing various repeatable removal spells (the Lilis, Scroll, NoSB; this is why I think Necropolis Fiend is good (and especially good with Ritual, btw)). If we can drain all of everyone's resources and then get one of these on the table then we'll hopefully blank all their further draws and win out.
Ritual, for me, is playable because in a lot of fast matchups (Delver, Combo decks), you can get that lock piece out that much faster. Most every deck struggles against T1 Lili on the play, and as soon as she lands she starts giving you that advantage. And when you're playing Smallpox and Wasteland, getting Lili out first and then following up with Pox or Blood is even harder to deal with, while having to wait for Lili when you get to the 3rd mana is so slow against a Delver deck where you want to be wasting and smallpoxing. And T2 hymn, T3 Lili is way worse against a combo deck like Storm, for example, than t1. Granted, you side ritual out against a lot of Control matchups where that fast advantage is not as powerful. In those matchups you want to just drop threat after threat until they run out of answers. But I feel it is strong enough in the other matchups to be worth it.
I think one thing that is kind of happening as the meta gets more 'fair' is that some people are modifying the deck to focus on beating fair decks only at the expense of the combo matchup. Cutting Dark Ritual seems like a move in that direction, but I'm skeptical of the move in general and I feel like Dark Ritual is not as bad against fair decks as you might think.
In the end game Ritual has a lot of niche uses as well, just to be clear. For example it's a card that easily reduces hand size for Scroll, or which enables you to cast a spell and then use it alone for a surprise Scroll activation. Mr. Safety already mentioned it makes Beseech better. And how often have we been sitting there after Smallpoxing and Wastelanding and thinking 'if only I had 1-2 more mana to cast this bomb in my hand...'? Ritual is mana sources 27-29 (or 26-28, or 25-27 :wink:), especially important if people are raising their curve by playing Karns. Plus given we play Smallpox and Lili, having a dead card always has the vague value of being a clear discard decision.
Anyway the tl;dr is that yeah I like ritual, 2-4 of them, and I think they help us be explosive in ways that are important.
If I can mulligan to four, and still win, then logically it should not be a problem drawing a normal hand of seven including "bad" cards like dark ritual.
Of course, it is important to have a solid reason for the rituals. If most of your spells cost one B then you don't need them. It is quite possible playing three to four liliana is not enough reason either. The odds of getting both Swamp ritual and liliana in starting hand is low after all. It is more likely your common situation is to play discard and disruption for a few turns before liliana.
Otoh, the things are different if you play four Pox, five liliana, one buried alive and only four cards, beside rituals, that cost B. Ie. My deck. While allowing busted plays the rituals function is in this case is to improve the decks mana curve by access to mana boost, rather than playing cheaper spells.
Why do you need Dark Ritual to beat combo?
Can't you just Thoughtseize turn 1, Hymn turn 2, Liliana turn 3? Why do you desperately need Lili turn 1, Hymn turn 2, Thoughtseize turn 3?
All your arguments for Dark Ritual in non-combo matchups are awful
So does a land or any other castable cardQuote:
In the end game Ritual has a lot of niche uses as well, just to be clear. For example it's a card that easily reduces hand size for Scroll
Is it really so critical that you have to activate Scroll EVERY turn while casting spells? Imagine if instead of that Ritual you had your 4th land. Now every turn you can play a 1 mana spell and use scroll every turn onwards, rather than just this 1 turn of activation + spellQuote:
or which enables you to cast a spell and then use it alone for a surprise Scroll activation.
No, it's bad with Beseech, because Beseech only lets you search for cards you can cast off your lands anyway. Ritual is 'good with beseech' in the same way that it's 'good' with any card that costs 3 or more manaQuote:
Mr. Safety already mentioned it makes Beseech better.
Don't play 'bombs' in your wasteland smallpox deck then, or just play more than 24 landsQuote:
And how often have we been sitting there after Smallpoxing and Wastelanding and thinking 'if only I had 1-2 more mana to cast this bomb in my hand...'? Ritual is mana sources 27-29 (or 26-28, or 25-27 ), especially important if people are raising their curve by playing Karns.
This is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. 'I like the card because it sucks so much that when I play Smallpox or Liliana I don't have to think about what to discard'Quote:
Plus given we play Smallpox and Lili, having a dead card always has the vague value of being a clear discard decision.
"Playing bad cards is acceptable because it's technically possible to win after mulliganing to 4"Quote:
If I can mulligan to four, and still win, then logically it should not be a problem drawing a normal hand of seven including "bad" cards like dark ritual.
Brilliant
What kind of Pox builds are you playing lately kiwi?
I noticed a few pages back you saying Planeswalkers and lock pieces are not your thing, and my main point was that ritual is better with those 'bombs' since it gets them out faster and ahead of the opponents development. So it seems like maybe we have just a basic difference in approach to the deck?
Deck 1: 8 Rack
12 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Cursed Scroll
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
2 Innocent Blood
1 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
1 Funeral Charm
The last 14 cards are more flexible than the rest of the list (You can think about playing 1-2 Sinkhole, Collective Brutality etc)
This is what I like in legacy ATM and I have tested it a bit
Deck 2: BW Smallpox
I'm not actually sure what this list is supposed to look like in Legacy and I haven't tested BW at all
I just think that if you want to play 4-drop planeswalkers then Flagstones becomes an important asset, and that it makes way more sense as a way to solve the mana problem than Dark Ritual does (you can fit Karn in here easily, it's probably better than Kaya, this is just a rough idea)
Lands (24)
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Fetid Heath
2 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
2 Shambling Vent
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
Creatures (4)
4 Bloodghast
Planeswalkers (8)
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Spells (24)
4 Lingering Souls
4 Smallpox
2 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
2 Collective Brutality
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Cursed Scroll
Wow. After criticizing previous comments with “awful,” “dumbest,” and a sarcastic “brilliant” I definitely wasn’t anticipating two Modern decks to be posted.