[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Both DOJ and Elsepth have their advantage and disadvantage. As a win condition, no doubt, Elsepth is much faster and act as a board control against aggro (say they attack each round with a goyf, Elsepth will provide you with a blocker each round until you find an answer). On the other hand, DOJ is slower but works much better under standstill and against control deck. The ability to be cycled, thus used as an instant is very useful in the matchup where you need to play control (having mana opens to counter, or to fake a counter). It can also be used to trick opponents when they attack with their creatures. In some very very rare situations, you will find yourself hardcasting DOJ to have 4/4 flying blockers and to kill your opponent. A 2-2 split seem to work for me.

Wasteland or no wasteland : I've cut wasteland, then wanted them back immediately. Merfolk is still a decent deck, and some random deck also run man land. (Granted, the current DTB suggest that manland are almost all gone). Wasteland should be seen as a 'land killed' and not as a land denial. Landstill isn't built on mana denial. In some very rare situation, (usually, lucky one), you can mana screw your opponent. However, a 1-1 trade isn't a very good trade in a deck like Landstill. You want all your land drops to play your 4mana bombs. If you play Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland get better. In the mid-late game, recurring wasteland could be used to mana denial when you have a good board position.

My current list runs 0 FoF. It sometimes lacks card advantage (Standstill cannot always be abused). However, with 3x sensei's, I've found my list to be more stable and at the same time im being able to control the game much better. If only i could make room for a 3standstill, 3 bs, 3 top WITH 2fof, that would be really good.

To be honest, I rarely use JACE +0 ability. This may sound crazy, but everytime it hit the board, the board relatively clean so i could just use its +2 ability to control the game and ultimately use his final ability to seal the game. Controlling what my opponent draws seem to be way more effective than drawing 1 extra card. The -1 is also VERY nice.

with the weakening of ANT and Reanimate deck, I feel landstill could possibly make a come back, especially if Aggro deck start to dominate again. We can easily modify our deck to combat aggro. I've read that 43.land deck will also become more dominant since its worst MUs are practically gone. I don't know how to tune our deck to fight them. My guess is to counter their exploration/mana bond and after sideboard, use graveyard removal and meddling mage on life from loam. The mu should be feasible.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Fact or Fiction may generate more card advantage now, but Jace is also a win con. FoF isn't a win con.

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I couldn't say it better! I run a 2x FoF 1 x Jace!

To beat Tendrils you simply need to find enough counters to get through their hate and counter the correct spell. Some times it is Dark Ritual and some times it is not. I've had the "pleasure" of playing against Bryant Cook for years now, perhaps I take knowing how to play against the deck for granted.

The 1 of Humility and Elspeth worked fine for me. I don't need either to beat any deck but situationally either can be stupid good and only running them as 1 of's I never had cases where I had doubles of anything that wasn't useful.

I can't count how many times people have scooped to me revealing my 5 cards from a FOF, I definetly consider it a win condition.

My sideboard changes almost daily, I prefer not to post it and get a slew of questions when I have already changed it 3 times since the posting. The MD only changes 1-2 cards as a general rule.

I do not discredit Jace as a powerful card but my point is this, it is a card for a 3 color control deck not a card for Landstill. 3 color control is usually a collection of meta hating control cards with a win con that happens to be good at the current time. Landstill is a synergistic control deck with a clear strategy. Merging the two ideas has never consitently yielded good results for me atleast.

i think the uwr version will be superior in the "new" metagame, increased chances vs merfolk, zoo and bant (bant is normally a win with both lists), counterbalance is better in the long run and having sdt makes your manabase more stable, firespout is a turn faster than wrath (important in the aggro matchups but doesnt kill tarmo - but u have snare, force, stp... for that problem) and red offers excess to helix against aggro. here is the list i would play:

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Plains (1)
2 [A] Island (2)
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Plateau
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [TE] Humility
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FNM] Oblivion Ring
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [SHM] Firespout

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [RAV] Lightning Helix

pls comment the list :tongue:

Quick question, and probably a dumb question, is the reasoning behind running red just for Firespout that good? Wouldn't U/W be just much more consistant?
You do get WoG and EE, also you can run Humility and Moat to slow the beats down. Just out of curiosity. I got rolled by a Stifle+Naught version of this deck.

The deck does look interesting to play though. Thanks.

lol @ getting rolled by stifle+nought

try to kill dreadnought with firespout =P

The stifle nought deck that you played against is called dreadstill though with qusali pridemage everywhere you don't see dreadnoughts popping up as often as they used to

I recommend listening to what konsultant has to say: I started playing UWb landstill almost two years ago, starting with the basic list that he suggested and haven't looked back since. With the right sideboarding and plays you'll get there against anything.

To be honest I was playing Belcher against it. I know, terrible decision, but we wanted to test something. Lol.

And yea, it isn't too bad.

But is the U/w version better just better or more consistant? Or is the red splash really worth it?

@whiteshepherdman: This is the reason why I prefer playing Wrath of God instead of Firesprout. :D

@magicplaya10: Playing red improves your tribal MU a bit because you can sweep the board a turn faster. But everytime I wanted to test Firesprout my opponents played Goofys, Warmonks or some other bigger creatures and I wished Firesprout would be a WoG. WoG may be a bit harder to cast because of WW in its costs but with the right manabase this should not be a great problem. Look at konsultant's list: He played Windswept Heath, Flooded Strand and Eternal Dragon so you can get WW with basic plains easily in turn 4. When your opponent starts to screw you, you need only U (then you can play your card draw) but WW to play all your removal.

@konsultant: I think the sideboard belongs to your deck because you played more games with sb than without at the tournaments. Without a good sideboard you wouldn't had this success. I'd like to know what cards you roughly play against what MU's. For example that you do not have any special cards against storm decks.

He's a busy guy, I think i can help you with your storm MU. Usually what you want like he mentioned earlier is just to counter the right stuff. If there is a lot of storm in your area 2-3 negates in your sb is good. I bring in my 3 negates and any other counterspells i have in my sb. I guess if you're playing against TES and have an extra EE in your sb that is good too for clearing their goblin tokens. Against combo, things get tricky. You have to decide, in case your running wasteland whether or not to deny them mana and thus their ability to set up the combo, or to save your land for your counters.

Against stuff like merfolk; I've never really had a problem game 2 and 3. Side in paths EE and engineered plague. I pull out my vindicates and a few of my wraths and 1-2 standstill if they have a few of their own. Konsultant came up with another fun way to deal with merfolk. Just convert them over to your side with preacher.

The only deck that really gave me a headache back in the day was tempo thresh, now replaced by new horizons which since i havent played in so long i just assume is a nastier tempo deck. Just by looking at the decklist I'd imagine crucible, and paths and swords to be your best weapons. Squeezing in a wrath will be a long shot since you most likely will not be allowed to have 4 lands in play before they beat you down, and an additional 1 land to pay for daze and such

Thats my advice on siding against a few decks out there

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

This is the primary reason but also because you actually dig usually 10%+ into your library. Jace's 0 ability is great but honestly I'd rather have the pure CA right now. Jace is fine as a 1 or 2-of in the board, although I haven't played a control mirror in ages.

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2 activations of Jace should be enough to make it better than FoF. With FoF, generally the 2 most useful cards in the top 5 are going to be in separate piles (unless you somehow JMT your opponent). So you get 2.5 cards of which 1 is useful and .75 is semi-useful and .75 is filler. With 2 Jace activations, you're only getting an extra two cards (.5 less than FoF), but with a shuffle effect (likely) you see an extra card, dump filler out of your hand and get more usable cards. Not to mention that Jace soaks damage and is a solid win-con. There's no contest here. As far as instant-speed vs. Sorcery-speed, Reprisal might deal with Tarmogoyf as well as Balance does, but if you had the option of running either, you'd run Balance and never mind tapping out, because Balance is more potent and flexible.

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

As far as instant-speed vs. Sorcery-speed, Reprisal might deal with Tarmogoyf as well as Balance does, but if you had the option of running either, you'd run Balance and never mind tapping out, because Balance is more potent and flexible.

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Comparing a card no one plays in constructed with a card so powerful that it's banned in every format except Vintage is great.

In regards to jace 2.0 vs FoF: digging 5 cards down in 1 turn then drawing the 6th card the next turn or brainstorming 3 more cards down after can mean finding a clutch swords to remove a game deciding problem like goyf or not having an answer at all. That is how i see it. If i want an answer, I want it now, not 2 turns later after I've taken so much damage that i can't come back from it. the 5 cards gives you so many options. Not only do you get an answer but you can get more than just that. A removal maybe? maybe you also pick up a decree and can use that to create blockers or go on the offensive. Also, no card in landstill is a filler card. No matter how arbitrary it seems to the situation, it will be useful at some point in the game. FoF is about the cards you get to flip over yes, but it is also the deck movement, that amount of cards you get to dig through in 1 move that makes it better in landstill than jace 2.0. It is an answer whereas jace is more of a win condition which we have elspeth, mishra's, decree, and dragon for.

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Originally Posted by Ranarion

@konsultant: I think the sideboard belongs to your deck because you played more games with sb than without at the tournaments. Without a good sideboard you wouldn't had this success. I'd like to know what cards you roughly play against what MU's. For example that you do not have any special cards against storm decks.

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At the events that I posted results for I was running between 2-4x Negate in my SB. I also brought in my 2x Relics to cycle/ mess with Cabal Ritual and IGG. I did not side in anything additional and I do not consider Negate to be "hate" for Tendrils. It is obviously in there with the thought of being relevant against combo but it is mostly my additional utility Counters post SB in match's where Counter magic is strong.

Perhap's a more correct statement would be I do not believe Tendrils requires dedicated hate in the SB to beat. If any of the Mage/Teeg/Cannonist suddenly became useful for other match up's of course I would consider running them. As it is Null Rod may very well become a strong card to play that would cross over as Tendrils hate with the unbanning of Monolith I would not be surprised to see some Tezzerat decks showing up to events.

Both Jace and FOF can be situationally better. My belief is that staistically speaking FOF will be the stronger card more often so I prefer to stick with them for multiple reasons. The number one reason I see is simple diversity of draw spells. Standstill draws cards only when you are winning as does Jace, FOF can draw you cards at any time. The one reacurring theme I see in every situation where Jace is good (outside of the bouncing Iona although I could FOF into Karakas or Tolaria West) FOF may not "end" the game right when Jace did but in my experience it certainly would have put you far enough ahead that it is doubtful you would have lost. The biggest difference is nobody is posting the times they couldn't play Jace because of threats in play or how many times it gets killed through burn and creature damage. I test like a madman and have definetly tested Jace enough to know it requires protecting inorder to keep it effective and I have been quoted many times for saying my disdain towards having to spend resources to protect win cons. Our opponents removal of our win cons should be one of our primary sources of card advantage as they should be irrelevant, relying on Jace requires protecting him whitch all falls down to card advantage as you are now focusing resources on cards that would normally be irrelevant. (ie Bolt targeting Jace). This small but relevant distraction of our resources requires more card quantity advantage to deal with all of our opponents relevant cards placing a further need for resolving card advantage beyond our normal need to win witch IMO definetly makes Jace less powerful overall than FOF. While there will always be situations where Jace was better or as good as FOF like I keep saying, the argument isn't whether Jace is a strong card my point is that it may not be an optimal card choice for Landstill. Since dropping Black I have lost my Lilliana I liked to run SB and have happily replaced it with Jace. The difference is I can bring him in match ups where he is strongest and am not hindered by relying on him for draw in match ups where he is weak.

I have considered Needle as additional answers for Plainswalkers but I think I would almost rather just have the Oblivion Ring at that point. It is potentially a problem although Jace is the far more popular Plainswalker and as of yet I have managed to kill all but one with Factories the turn after they are cast. The only one I couldn't was because it was paired with a Back to Basics. An early Elspeth is definetly a problem although I do not expect it to be a common occurence especially given my Counter Magic. Either way I will probably get 1-2 cards atleast in my SB that can fight an early Elspeth be they Oblivion Rings or something else.

In theory I like dustbowl alot but in reality most games that go out far enough for it to be relevant I have already won. The 2x Wasteland is merely a tempo related choice based on consistency of relevence.

Personally I prefer the 3/3 Split of Standstills and FOF. I have found in our good match ups Standstill is dominatingly stronger yet our bad match ups are almost defined as ones where Standstill may be a liability thus making FOF a stronger card. I started the 3/3 split as a way to try and maintain a draw engine while boarding against Ichorid. I really don't notice the difference as it's pretty rare I am able to drop and resolve the good old turn two Standstill since nearly everything either plays daze or something I may need my mana untapped to fire out a counter for. Anything that doesn't play one of those two is generally a bye or something like Ichorid where on turn 2 of game one I am usually gauging how fast my opponent plays to see how much of a factor time in round will be and determining how I plan on side boarding for the next 2 games.

Wouldn't Spell Pierce out of the board be good against combo as well? I do like the Cannonist. What about some thing like Rule of Law out of the board as well?

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Originally Posted by Ranarion

Comparing a card no one plays in constructed with a card so powerful that it's banned in every format except Vintage is great.

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And yet I stand by the comparison. The difference in power levels is similar. FoF does one thing, and in Legacy, what it does is not good enough. I played with FoF in Vintage, back when it was unrestricted. I know how powerful the card can be, but Legacy doesn't have the same interactions that old Type 1 had and what FoF does just isn't enough anymore.

@Whiteshepherdman : The number of situations where you would find the StP in the additional 2 cards AND StP would save you and Jace would not are so few as to be completely negligible. Nobody plays any pro-blue creatures and the only instance I can think of where the bounce wouldn't buy you time is if your opponent has lethal on the board and the only thing that can save you from dying is removing Lord of Atlantis. Also keep in mind that Jace is removal while Fact might find you removal.

@Konsultant: I think that's part of your problem. You can easily drop Jace, brainstorm, then let him soak a Tarmo beat. Maybe if you were only running 1 you'd feel inclined to protect him, but with 2-4, who cares?

"You can easily drop Jace, brainstorm, then let him soak a Tarmo beat. Maybe if you were only running 1 you'd feel inclined to protect him, but with 2-4, who cares" <---- lol cause thats how we play landstill

"Also keep in mind that Jace is removal while Fact might find you removal."

I like paying 4 mana for sorcery speed unsummon and brainstorm, best idea ever

P.S. unsummon is bad

And then getting jace that you've used for 1 turn killed by grim lavamancer or lightning bolt

Running Jace in place of draw is asanine. Jace is not meant to replace draw. For those who were running FoF, you wouldn't simply cut FoF for Jace and be done with it. Jace is a replacement win condition. For me, I cut Decree of Justice for it. DoJ is just such a weak spell these days. For those wanting to continue to strengthen the "Landstill" theme, it may still be the right choice. In terms of actual power level, it's horrible. Jace is a clear cut replacement for it, at least it was for me. 4 mana to cast Jace is equivilant to a cantrip and 1/1 token from Decree, albeit at sorcery speed. Difference is, Jace can do multiple things, making him a very versatile win conditon.

In games where card advantage typically means you win, he can generate real card advantage every turn with his Brainstorm effect. In games where the opponent goes into topdeck mode, his fateseal ability can mean you win. Alot of times, the unsummon effect saves you in a pinch. I run CounterTop, so maybe that's why I get more mileage out of it, dropping Jace with 5 lands on the board means I can unsummon and still maintain my CounterTop lock.

Regardless, I think the arguments for whether to run Jace or not are being looked at the wrong way. FoF is clearing a better draw spell, because it draws you a bunch of cards at instant speed, regardless of the gamestate. Does being a better draw spell make it a better spell than Jace? My opinion is no; I think Jace is a stronger card overall.

Regardless, the differences between the two are much less linear than it is being argued. Are apples better than oranges? That's what I feel like I'm reading in these back and forth arguments.

I've been running Jace 2.0 as a 2-of for a while now and was impressed 95% of the time he showed up, which recently led me to add a third copy.
I can't emphasize his insane power level enough, though it definitely depends on the shell you build around him.
As some of you will know, I've stuck with the Speedstill approach ever since PtE became legal and never looked back. Jace 1.0 was a great replacement for FoF then (here's an early UWB version: CLICK) and Jace 2.0 takes that baby to yet another level. I just dig the fact that the amount of spotremoval makes it more than likely that you'll BS into cheap solutions and keep the board clean, even if you're light on mana.
Collaborating with Mr. Kötter, who has been quite successful with a creative Jace control deck, boasting a full playset as its sole wincon [!] (here's the primer: CLICK) inspired some changes, including the current experiment of cutting both Elspeths... More often than not I'd rather have drawn a Jace - simple as that. I'm aware of the fact that this move results in an even slower clock but the benefitsoutweigh that aspect. The pros for that change include: getting rid of the Knight's Errant ultimately nullifies your opponent's creature removal [I've also come to the strategy to activate Factory almost exclusively if Standstill is "guarding" it]. Plus never needing WW is a bonus, too, so is a a slightly lower curve, but let's cut to the chase - here's my current list:

Draw/Filter:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace 2.0
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
3 Firespout
4 Engineered Explosives

Counter Suite:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

Land:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island*
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins


* improves Firespout, EE and adds Grip, which is mostly needed against decks w/o mana denial (read: CB-Top, Enchantress,Thopter-Foundry)

SB:
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Rhox Warmonk (yeah, danger of cool things)
3 Spell Pierce

There's more to say about the ideas behind many card choices, but I'm kinda busy right now :-( but fire away if you're "unhappy" with the concept and I'll be happy to fire back asap ;-)

I also like the list, but perhaps I have just been a big supporter of Elspeth, to cut her completly. I dunno what I should cut for her, perhaps the 4th ee?

I played at the Meandeck Open today, with very low attendance due to neighboring GPTs (one in Cleveland, and one in Michigan). Only 15 players total, so 4 rounds of Swiss and cut to T4. I finished the Swiss 3-0-1, finishing first in the standings, but lost to Merfolk miserably in the T4. I lost all four of my rolls and played second in all my g1's. Quick breakdown, not enough for a tournament report thread but still valuable information:

R1: 2-1 Win against Belcher. He goes all in on turn one and despite my mull to 6 I have the Force of Will to stop his Belcher, so I'm already up a game. Game two we play until I have two lands in play with a Negate in my hand, and he starts playing mana rituals. Thinking he's going to cast Burning Wish, I foolishly let him build up mana -- he had EtW in his hand. G3 I rip Canonist and ride it to victory along with some Decree tokens.

R2: 2-0 Win against Belcher (Zay). Yup, no typo there, the only other Belcher in the room. Very similar to g1 of the last round, where I am on the draw, mull to 6, and have a Counterspell of some type to stop his early Belcher. g2 he EtW's his t1, making 12 Goblin tokens, but I play a land and pass, hoping he doesn't rip Duress for the EE in my hand. He doesn't, I go to 8, EE for 0, then play Canonist the next turn. Soon after, I draw into more countermagic and the game is mine.

R3: 2-1 Win against ANT (yawg07). My heart was racing the entire time, because I know Gus is a very good combo player and for this tournament he will be walking his Mystical Tutors out into the sunset. He takes away my only countermagic g1 and rolls me. I board in 3 Canonst, 3 Negate, and a Jace, TMS for the second game, and get there with double Canonist and countermagic for his bounce spells. G3 was very long and very good, as I stave off early disruption but draw no Canonists, eventually I sculpt my hand into 3 Negate, FoW, and FoF, and play Standstill. I drew lands like a boss in this game, including when Gus breaks the Standstill, I draw fetch, fetch, Tundra. Ugh. I Negate both of his Duresses. Finally, I cycle a Decree for 4 tokens, getting there slowly and surely behind a ton of countermagic.

I draw R4 with my teammate Eric (Media314r8), and am first in the standings going into the T4.

While we all wanted to draw and get out of there, the TO announces that the T4 must be played out at least to the T2. But we all agree on a split and play for pride. I am paired against Merfolk, who only lost to Gus in R1, and just beat Paul Mastriano playing New Horizons in the last round to sneak into T4.


I lose the die roll and have a slow start, taking beats from a Silvergill Adept and Lord of Atlantis, which I attempt to Swords unsuccessfully. The next turn I draw a Factory and play it, hoping he doesn't have Wasteland, and he attacks with LoA into it, giving me a little bit of breathing room. I resolve Humility, and then Cycle all three Decrees to blow him out of the game. The next two games were absolutely miserable, with me drawing 3 total StP effects despite boarding into 7 StP effects / 3 Vindicate / 3 EE / 3 WoG. I see no EE's, Vindicates, or extra StP effects. I had Preacher, but he gets a close g2, followed by a blowout in g3, when he starts the game with no Lords in hand, and finishes me off with four in play. Yikes.


So, I end the day 3-1-1, not the greatest of finishes but drawing better would have given me a better chance against Merfolk for sure. I played a somewhat classical list with 1 Jace, TMS in the board for the appropriate matchups and none in the MD, 3 Decree of Justice, 2 Fact or Fiction, and only 1 Elspeth.