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So true. My fingers were also itchin to get some good fakes of P9, just so I could play in sanctioned Vintage. I mean good fakes are detectable under loope, with several tests, etc, who in their right mind would stop the game, call the judge and say that guy is playing with proxies. And even if they do, f*** you, what makes you the authority to detect fakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
ps: f*** you reserved list and f*** wizards; all hail our future overlords - quality fakes.
I think Vintage Masters is selling like crazy on Magic Online. Maybe they'll realize one day that it's stupid to not use their licence to print money. Maybe they don't. Then chinese people will make money. Lots of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
They could also make tons of money with stuff they could reprint, e.g. FoW, Wasteland, etc., but they choose not to for whatever stupid reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Makes you wonder how they can make that much money, despite some very questionable mismanagement (MTGO comes into mind).
WotC makes money because they get people to buy crappy cards over and over again. The rarity of many good cards drives the secondary market and keeps people opening boxes at a regular pace. Draft is the icing on the cake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'm not so sure anymore. Wouldn't Vintage have that happen already?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
People would be way more wary about P9 instead of random Legacy staples.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Yeah, except if they don't reprint those rare cards, they don't make any money off of them. Unless you think players are, incentivized by the desire to get a Force of Will, will be opening up Magic 2015 which... has no Force of Will. Your logic here doesn't seem to make much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
A good card having high secondary market value only keeps people opening up booster packs when it's in those booster packs, and even that only benefits Wizards of the Coast when it's booster packs they're currently producing (high value for Chord of Calling currently benefits them; high value for Horizon Canopy currently does not). And, heck, sometimes the opposite occurs. If a set is unpopular, cards in it can be worth more because fewer copies were opened. Tarmogoyf and the rest of the things from Future Sight are worth so much because Future Sight wasn't a popular set at the time it was printed, so their price goes up thanks to the resulting scarcity. Similarly, I think Brimaz would be cheaper if Born of the Gods was a more popular set due to more copies being in circulation.
It isn't like Vintage is limited to p9. There are still other valuable cards as well. And most of the highly priced Legacy cards are still used in Vintage. I think Vintage/Legacy are too small of a market. Essentially since Vintage reached the point of unsanctioned proxy events as regular things and there wasn't a large influx of fakes. Could also be that proxies devalues fakes. Not sure how long until Legacy reaches that point. Maybe when coupled with Modern gaining more and more popularity there may be enough of a market there for counterfeiters to exploit in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
The opening of boxes is mainly to fuel the Standard and Draft formats with the occasional new eternal staple thrown in. I'm just remembering the $20 Grave Titans at one point in the 2011 Standard meta that never actually made it into even a tier 1.5 list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
What a sad picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Except for UB control...which won Worlds...and was a tier 1 deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
That is sad :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Indeed, I always thought it was amusing as shit when some kid sits down with belcher and dream crushes
Forget it, I misread the original post and thought that it's about a 65 y/o dude not having children, only his cards' collection. That would be sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
A 65 ppl Vintage Gen con ain't sad. More hilarious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Things are probably fine for the next 20 years however if people never sell there collections then eventually you reach the point where there is not enough staples available for new players. Sure that might be in 50 years and we will all be in our 90's but you reach the point where new players would be waiting for someone to drop dead so cards go back into circulation.
Those of us that have been playing for 15+ years probably have fond memories of using our old cards. Decks like Thresh and Pox may have gotten new cards (Delver, Lilly) but the core stratagy of the deck has not really changed for a decade. However if stores can not fire regular 8-man non-proxy events why would new players want to buy into Legacy?
Looking at the other thread about the Arazonia meta and I see lots of Burn and D&T (Ports were cheap until last year) and that echos what I see locally lots of mono-colored decks and a few BUG decks running mostly on shocks form the people that already own Goyf.
Another 50 years? :really: That's a bit unrealistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
Magic is still going very strong, but I doubt it keeps going forever. They already have severe creativity problems after 20 years, hence all the recycling we're seeing lately. I can't see them going on for another 50 years or longer. And if Magic is no longer in print, the popularity of all the older cards (aside from collector pieces) is going to drop as well.
All assuming Wizards doesn't do RL reprints at some point or the Chinese aren't taking over (again, at some point in the future, we will get actual high quality fakes since it prints money Wizards isn't willing to print out of stupidity).
Is it? Assuming cards are not reprint (either by WotC or Chinese fakers) how long would you say Magic has? They may just be reusing ideas but that does not mean it will stop the game from selling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Don't you know that it's somehow secretly good for the game? /sarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
I don't think that MtG may survive for fifty years, definitely not as a mainstream thing. It all depends on the level of infantility across the first world, and it's also about what happens during wartime years, when people will be selling their stuff for dirt cheap, once they'll realize that bread or atb are more important for their children than sitting on a pile of cardboard.
I came to a conclusion that nowadays situation is what WotC really like and there's nothing that may change it, unless massive prints of fakes endager the whole game, the whole Wizards' money-printing industry. I don't even think that there's some (more or less hidden) agenda to kill the Eternal or w/e, but basically Wizards look at the ghosts of the past (not only P9, but also every design mistake be it Yawgmoth's Will, Strip Mine, Mana Vault or any other sick card) and somehow dislike how they "spoil" the game. ALso, there are hundreds of other CCGs and Magic stands above all of them not only because it's the first one, but for other reasons, one of them being the legendary cards of the past. Frankly, I'm sure that WotC lrealized long ago that destroying the status of such cards like P9 (by reprinting them) won't do them any good, as one aspect of MtG history/aura/w-e would be lost. Moreover this opens window for further reprints and this is a slippery slope they're not going to step on. Because further reprints might mean further blah blah, you know, all the legendary haze surrounding MtG will vanish. Magic in twenty+ years might revolve around the same concepts like it did ever since 1995, with the strong (yet unseen) "base" of the P9-like stuff that gives the game an aura of something exceptional.
7 Fetchlands
11 Islands
1 Tropical Island
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Frantic Search
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze
1 Flash of Insight
sb;
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Hunting Pack
xxxxxxx
Maybe replace a land, and Flash for 2 Remands, or Opt/Peek/Visions of Beyond. Only way to fit Misstep in Solidarity is to add Frantic Search so you can flush away all the dead crap during a combo. Seems good.
Please Wizards?
On a more serious note, discussion on the unbanning of Frantic Search? I see High Tide (obv) and RUG Delver running it, or even some horrible Snapcaster+Frantic Search midrange-control deck.
edit; forgot the Brain Freeze.
I don't think that there is any deck out there that would play Frantic Search except High Tide. In Reanimator a 3 mana careful study is not good. And why should RUG Delver play a 3cc spell that creates card disadvantage? In my eyes Frantic Search is a completely fine unban, because it won't make High Tide oppressive. it would only decrease the number of Delver, Storm and S&T decks a little bit, because they are all bad against High Tide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
Yeah, I don't think Frantic Search would be a problem, and making a deck better while hurting no other deck seems great.
Shows how narrow minded you are. Winning on turn 1 without a zero drop? Here's a hand that does so:Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
4 dark ritual
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Infernal Tutor
1 black producing land
Probe into 3 more probes, storm 4. Last probe draws a cabal ritual. Land into 4 dark rits, storm is 8. Cabal ritual is 9. Infernal is 10. Tendrils for 22.
Yeah the scenario isn't likely to happen, but look you can win turn 1 without zero drops. It's also VERY reasonable to be able to win through a chalice at zero through cantripping into a lethal combination of dark rits and CRits + infernal. Still get hellbent because you can just ram any zero drops you want into chalice. If you think chalice at zero wrecks storm 100% of the time I have news for you. Chalice at zero and one? Sure then you're doing well for yourself. But just chalice at zero will not consistently beat storm.
I want frantic search to be legal just to play solidarity with it and see what happens.
WGD is not a logistical nightmare because who is going to sling it at a tournament? We don't have bazaar here. So you have to have a way to pitch worldgorger, a way to protect it in all likelihood, the reanimation spell, and something to do with infinite mana in hand. I just listed 4 cards. 4 card combos are hilariously bad. Not to mention stuff like stroke and such outside the combo are quite bad. Instead of this you can just go careful study into a reanimation spell getting griselbrand and win seeing as how griselbrand is infinitely better than WGD.
Isn't the traditional example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
1x Mountain
4x Rite of Flame
1x Dragonstorm
I tend to think that Frantic Search has very strong synergy with graveyard strategies as well as high tide. People would test it with things like Past in Flames and dredge.
Search would not go in Dredge.
Tap 3 gemstone, send one to the grave, untap two gemstone, do nothing with the remaining mana because you have nothing left in hand because it's turn 3.
Useful.
If it weren't for Tarmogoyf, I could see Search being good in a RUG Madness shell, but Goyf outclasses the Madness creatures pretty seriously, so that's not an viable option.
So show and tell is fine in this format right? Can we just unban everything obviously less powerful than show and tell?
unban black vise - card is a joke.
unban frantic search - only good in one deck and that deck is tier 1.5 at best.
unban earthcraft - I can't find a successful deck with earthcraft in it. In any format. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying the records are hard to find. At any rate, both pieces being non-blue and having to pass the turn after you
combo are - among other reasons - why earthcraft is less powerful than show and tell.
show and tell being off the list makes certain things being on the list look really weird.
Frantic search is best utilized in high tide based decks by far. Any other decks that use it are being far too fair with the card. Reanimator would not run a 3 drop like frantic search over show and tell at the same cost as show and tell cheats mana costs at a much better rate since it plops in 8+ CMC cards. Canadian thresh does not want a 3 drop that it can't cast and is card disadvantage in a deck with no way of producing card advantage. Madness is super dead. Decks with LED do not remotely want frantic search. There is not a new archetype that will spawn due to frantic search being legalized as the archetype already exists in the form of high tide, a tier 2 strategy at best currently.
Search in dredge? It costs 3. Tolarian winds is vastly superior. It costs 2 and is unplayable in dredge. Just great.
I think it is just kind of openly accepted that Search and Earthcraft are both safe these days.
Petition for Search.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I've brought up the Frantic Search discussion several times and no one really thinks it would be broken except people with weak arguments. I think it is a safe unban.
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Mind Twist
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon
Get crazy and breathe some life into the format
If we want to breathe life into the format, as opposed to powering-up/spawning a couple more (necessary) combo archetypes mass bans would be a much more viable option. I was thinking something along these lines, sorted by category:
*Dumb Blue Stuff
-Delver of Secrets
-True Name Nemesis
-Show and Tell
-Brainstorm
*Dumb Fatties
-Progenitus
-Iona
-Emrakul
-Jin Gitaxis
-Griselbrand
*Combo Culling
-Gaea's Cradle
-Flayer of the Hatebound
-Ad Nauseam
-Entomb
-Time Spiral
*I never stopped loving Wild Mongrel
-Tarmogoyf
*Check your privilege
-Stoneforge Mystic
-Terminus
Basically, it's Legacy circa 09-10, but with a lot of the good additions (Thalia, Abrupt Decay, DRS) and much less of the stupid stuff that has been stinking up the format. These bans could really shake up the format for the better, but I know this suggestion, or anything like it, will never happen (Wizards doesn't care about Legacy) and would be extremely unpopular, especially with most of the users on this here site.
Again, the only one I'd copnsider genuinely dangerous is Survival; WGD can be fought, Earthcraft dies to all the cheap removal; Search is good in maybe two decks, Twist is extremely inconsistent and Vise is only really good against Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
I'm willing to be overruled on the Dragon, though as there are enough ways to instadraw with it that it might be problematic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Legacy is a different beast from the era of Necrotic Ooze/4x Vengevine Survival. Considering the hate they have printed in the past year(s) (with much of it being maindeckable), it seems relatively safe.
There're lots of whining coming from non-miracles players calling a ban on miracles stables like Top/CB/Brainstorm.
That is something I was not aware of.
I've got to give you points for sticking this one into an otherwise mostly serious post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend
You mean players like, Joe Lossett on CB?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Oh, and it's staples. Not stables. :rolleyes:
The only one that's arguably a serious contender for banning is BS, and even then, BS is arguably more diverse in a format with fetchlands than just about any toher cards, but it also puts consistency issues onto decks without it. But my guess is that there's goingt o be nothing done.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
My money is on no changes or an innocous unban like Earthcraft or Mind Twist.
Also - if for some reason people wanted to ban a card from Miracles, why would CB be the choice? It's probably the easiest card in Miracles to answer by far because of Abrupt Decay.