No, the Germ is created and immediately equipped to Batterskull; then the game checks for "dead" creatures, then priority is granted to active player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
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No, the Germ is created and immediately equipped to Batterskull; then the game checks for "dead" creatures, then priority is granted to active player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
There were 3 people playing Spiral Tide at the tournament I played at this past Saturday :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Leto, I might still run a couple Surgical Extractions, like a 2/1 or 2/2 split with Crypt. Extraction can be relevant in a wider variety of matches, and the surprise value is helpful. Also, when you get a juicy target, it can actually help your long game, while Crypt really only helps you for a turn or 2 (which Surgical can also do if timed carefully).
Artlee, you can response to the Germ trigger (successfully with a Stifle, say), but when your Bolt resolves it will already be a 4/4, so unfortunately that doesn't work for us. Same as how a Wild Nacatl is a 3/3 as soon as it hits the field if you have Plateau. With Batterskull, putting the token into play and attaching it are all part of one ability resolution so you can't interrupt it.
lordofthepit, that's a nice listing of the various matchups among Zoo, Big Zoo, and Bant, but it's pretty arbitrary. I'm only saying that because I could easily have had a different set of experiences with the same decks, and I'm not sure where you assembled all the data from. Anyway, it's not really important and I'm not really trying to argue with you. Big Zoo should usually beat Fast Zoo, but lose to Bant, and that's my only real stipulation. As soon as I start considering Noble Hierarch, I feel like I should just run Bant colors and call it a day. Sure you sacrifice Burn for Counterspells, but Brainstormswickedgoodblahblahblah. I just like being at one extreme or the other of the Bant/Zoo dichotomy, so I'd rather be "Super Fast Dudes with Tons of Burn" than "KoTR with Force backup, GG?". Big Zoo falls somewhere in the middle. Both decks are pretty well balanced, and my Fast Zoo lists always end up a bit more diversified than just Dudes and Burn, but I like pushing the envelope in that direction. Contrarily you prefer Big Zoo, which means we are both pushing Zoo to be better and more adaptable in a variety of metas, which is a good thing. And yeah, Steppe Lynx sucks sometimes, but he beats the shit outta combo and control, which is why I like him. He is usually the first creature to get swapped out week to week though.
RUG Visions is the list running Bloodbraid into Ancestral Visions, with a variety of other ridiculous card advantage (Jace, Sylvan) in addition to the usual RUG stuff. The list is probably not that great right now, but the player who runs it here just happens to be really good when he's sitting on a bunch of draw spells, so his deck's EV is a bit higher than it should be I'd say. I usually go to 3 games against him and lose in the final SB game, whether I'm running Junk or Zoo. We'll see how he deals with RUG Tempo next time I show up though! :cool:
No, because the equipment is attached to it during the resolution of the Living Weapon ability which is triggered when Batterskull comes into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
EDIT: A bit late, I see.
Hi, was Pat Cox playing zoo in SCG: Invitational? I read those standings and he was at 16 points. Another zoo player David Doberne was at 15 points.
Yes, I saw him playing against Kibler on SCG LIVE. He had Ranger of Eos and Stoneforges so it was maybe big zoo?Quote:
Originally Posted by angel882
Last time when he won invitionals in Indianapolis he was playing this listQuote:
Originally Posted by dsck
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Creatures [24]
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells [16]
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [20]
SIDEBOARD
2 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Pyroblast
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
so it's kind of small zoo with Mystic package and Eos in side.
played this yesterday in a Tourney with 62 Players, 6 Rounds
//Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
//Creatures
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
//Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
Only short Report, I'm not in the mood for a long one
2:1 Win against Maverick
2:0 Win against Manaless Dredge
2:1 Win against Enchantress
0:2 Loss against U/R StifleNought
0:2 Loss against Deadguy
0:2 Loss against Show and Tell Hivemind
3:3 in the end and I fell kind of depressed -.-
Manabase needs more work, Board the same, a little bit streaming in the Mainboard.
Anyone read Mark Hinsz's SCG Invitational report where he lost on the bubble, piloting Big Zoo?
Bwainstorm—SCG Invitational Report
So I've been playing one drop Zoo a lot on MWS, because I like Kird Apes basically. Besides deciding that most lists ran decidedly too few Sylvan Libraries (what the fuck is with this business of decks that have no other way to dig running a one of random Library?), I've also added Grafted Wargear to top off the curve. This is a card that will probably not be much remembered by anyone who doesn't Cube draft, but it's surprisingly powerful. I usually advocate it as an SFM target in non-green decks that otherwise lack beef on their dudes, but I'm running it by itself here because of some very important math; it makes your one mana dudes into 5/5s and 6/5s, which is to say, bigger than both the standard Tarmogoyf and bigger than a Batterskull-equipped germ.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
3 Sylvan Library
3 Grafted Wargear
SB:
1 Path to Exile
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tormod's Crypt
I've been absolutely crushing people on Cockatrice with this list; it's fast enough that it has few really unwinnable matchups, it helping that Reanmator and Tendrils decks so often do a shit ton of damage to themselves.
Sylvan Library is amazing in this deck and three is the bare minimum to run. You're always the aggressor so you can usually afford to straight up draw three cards off of it. Wargears, as I said, just let all of your dudes become Goyf and Germ crushing threats on their own. And your actual Goyfs become ridiculous, usually bigger than Knights when it's relevant.
@IBA: I'm really curious about your inclusion of Grafted War Gear over Rancor. Rancor is cheaper and much faster out of the gate. I've been a huge fan of Rancor in zoo for a long time (I just upped the count from 3 to 4 recently.) You've got me thinking though, as the free equip is nice alongside the extra p/t it provides. I'm still stuck in 2009 with Woolly Thoctar as my top end of my curve.
I have also been a big supporter of Sylvan Library. I've had up to 3 Libraries, but I'm settled at 2 right now. Landing a turn 2-3 Library after a turn 1 Nacatl is a damn good feeling, and especially nice against anything tempo or control oriented. It feeds you removal, burn, lands to overcome Wasteland, and more cheap dudes.
Originally I was running the slot as Rancors, actually. The biggest reason I can tell you to run Grafted Wargear instead- and I'm a huge fan of Rancor, mind- is that it makes Batterskull a chump blocker.
@IBA I like the list. I prefer the faster Zoo lists as I think its Zoo's greatest strength. Out of curiosity, have you experimented with Tribal Flames, since you are running 12 fetches?
Jack, why are you not running Steppe Lynx over one of the 2/3 slots? That guy is the best creature at getting in early damage, and you are running ass tons of fetches.
Also, later on when you run out of lands for him you can just throw wargear on and crash in.
I would also consider fireblast over lightning helix.
Because it's only running 20 lands, with no Knights, and my experiences with Lynx have been pretty mixed. People seem to usually up the land count and run Horizon Canopy to support him, but doing that just to run Lynx over Loam Lion seems pretty weak to me. It's also worth keeping in mind that the format is increasingly taking aim at small creatures; Loam Lion can't be Cursed Scrolled, or Punishing Fired, and they're sure not getting a two for one off it and Lavamancer with Fire/Ice or even God forbid Contagion.
2/3 really isn't that small in the early game, most decks have maybe 1, 2 creatures max out during that time that can do more than trade with it; and that's what your removal and wargears are for.
Fireblast is a thought and would give the deck an extra boost of speed. I've found the life swing from Helix to be relevant on occasion though, especially with Library. I dunno though, it's certainly worth testing out.
@Hoojo: Not really. It's not running any basics so where would you find room for the Badland/Trop/whatever?
Is there a different thread for Big Zoo? I can't seem to find it... if not I hope you don't mind me posting the list I'm currently running:
Mana: 23
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Burnwellows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
Beats: 21
4 GSZ
4 Noble H.
4 Goyf
4 Knight
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage
2 Jitte
1 Elspeth
Disruption: 12
4 Swords
4 Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
Other: 4
3 Library
1 Crucible
I really like it, although I may end up adding in two Path's to up the 1cc RFGCreature cards.
Also people, you really should be playing at least 3 Sylvan Libraries, that card is nuts. Like seriously.
Is anyone experienced with the Punishing Fire + Grove + Kavu Predator -Version?
Looks like this in full
//Lands
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
//Creatures
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Goblin Guide
//Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fiery Justice
//Sideboard
2 Gaddok Teek
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Choke
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
In my opinion you need to cut the Guides for 2 Knights and 2 GSZ and the Groves to 2 and fill up with 2 Duals to make the Manabase a bit more stable but looks interesting enough to try it
Not playing Nacatl in Big Zoo is a mistake, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
Since you're playing 4 Zeniths, I'd add a singleton Teeg which gives you some way to hate on Storm game one.
For reference, here's what I played about a week ago:
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Green Sun's Zenith
//Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Pyroblast
2 Path to Exile
I like playing so many one-drops. Improves your curve. The deck performed well and I made top 8, then lost in the first round against some Storm variant running Cunning Wish and Past in Flames.
Is punishing fire really that good in legacy right now? I know it was a thing in modern until the bannings, and some maverick players have used it successfully, but I just can't see it being that necessary for even Big Zoo. I guess at that point, you are kind of a hybrid of zoo/maverick. Both Pfire and Grove seem pretty bad when your opponent isnt playing x/2's, especially the combo players. But then again, I have always preferred Fast zoo.
The reason some of us don't run more than 1-2 Sylvans is that the second one is almost always a dead draw. And the less that happens, the better off zoo is. I would only ever run 2 in the 75, more than that and I am likely to have one sitting in my hand instead of a game winning burn spell more often than I'd like. it's an amazing card in many matchups, but zoo doesn't need it to win.
I'd just play the second one anyway. If you have a fetch, you can resolve the first, then fetch in response to the trigger from the second to look at some fresh cards. Not the greatest thing ever, but not really any disadvantage other than opening yourself up to something like Maelstrom Pulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis