She beats for 2. Your Thorns don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBlade
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She beats for 2. Your Thorns don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBlade
Yes you can cheat it into play with vial but in order to do that you'd have to wait until turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzo767
Your second point - cavern of souls, you'd have to name human or soldier to play her without any fear of counterspells and then you'd open your goblins up to being countered instead.
Neither of those two points sound like a good reason to run Thalia.
Their counterspells would also cost 1 extra and it isn't that hard to get 3 mana in goblins considering lists run 21-24 lands (I run 22 myself).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzo
I know that, but I don't care that she beats for two, I'd still have to splash white to fit her in. She's also vulnerable to removal and thorns isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirin
I really like what you said in the first part, because you are right! Arguments stand and fall on their own! So here are my arguments for Thalia:Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBlade
Thalia is a pain in the ass for UWx Miracles, Esperblade and RUG Thresh. So why would we reject a card that's good (and with "good" I mean to say that those decks can't just win through Thalia, they MUST get rid of her) against 3 of the DTB? Reasons would be that (1) she's not a goblin and (2) that she requires a W splash. Those agruments are pretty good and I'll show you why.
Well, I can't argue that not not being a goblin is not problematic in an synergistic tribal-aggro deck. However, Thalia is a CREATURE. Aggro decks want CREATURES. If we can get our hands on a creature that is good against 50% of the DsTB while being not bad against the other half, I would say that we might give that creature a shot.
"But she demands splashing W". This is not a problem - not at all. We have Vials. We have Caverns. We have enough space for duals and fecthies. Other legacy decks consider their manabases as "Wasteland-proof" when they have only 3-4 basiclands (while still being 3-colored!). So I don't think that we should shit our pants on this topic. Opponet's Wastelands will destroy Cavern of Souls in (estimated) 90% of all cases anyway, so our dual-lands are save I guess. On top of that, there are successful lists that run 4 Rishadan Ports in addition to Wastelands, Caverns, Fetchies and 1-2 dualland. This also points in the directin that our manabase is not the thing we should worry about.
Well, I stop here since I dont want to write an essay on that topic. I really like to hear some valid arguments AGAINST Thalia in Vial-Goblins - so far I havn't heard any.
@GoboLord: Okay I like some of the arguments you have there (its not enough to play though Thalia, they have to remove her and that aggro decks want creatures).
Still though I'm very skeptical of choosing Thalia.
You argue that we have cavern of souls, however if we use cavern of souls to play Thalia - we would have to either name human or soldiers to get the white mana and make her uncounterable. In the first couple of turns, this would be problematic for the rest of the deck, because now our goblins would be vulnerable to counters and that land would be colorless for the rest of the game (unless you use it to play Thalia). That doesn't really seem worth it to me.
I do agree that it wouldn't be hard to have a build to get the white mana, but my point isn't that white mana is hard to get - rather it's whether or not splashing white just for Thalia is worthwhile as opposed to running black, green, or staying mono-red or some combination of those colors for the cards they offer.
Returning to your point above, that its not enough for Thalia to play though her, they have to remove her - against decks like Miracles I don't think that's too much of a problem if they're running Terminus, since it wipes the board and costs 2 instead of 1 (assuming it's played for it's miracle cost), whereas if you run Thorns instead, you don't have to worry about Terminus.
However, I think that point is relevant to the rest of the decks you mentioned, so it goes back to what I said above: whether or not splashing white just for Thalia is worthwhile as opposed to running black, green, or staying mono-red or some combination of those colors for the cards they offer.
@Thalia
Why run Thalia?
Running Thalia makes sense just because there are a bunch of decks out there that play more spells than creatures. That's it. Goblins, Elves, and Maverick are the only decks that run more than 20 creatures. You can expect every other deck you face to have less than 33% of the deck as creatures. In fact, it's usually closer to 25% of the deck being creatures. Often, it's less than that even.
When you resolve a Thalia you are almost timewalking your opponent. If you land a T2 Thalia which your opponent cannot answer you've gained an incredible tempo advantage. This advantage is significant, but it only really works when your deck is already functioning like a classic goblins deck. A Thalia by itself isn't going to win the game for you. But T1 Lackey/Vial, T2 Thalia? That's a tempo boost for the Goblins deck that in most games your opponent won't be able to win through without an answer to one or both cards. Follow this up with Waste/port activations and the Goblins deck is playing creatures for free, while most of the spells the opponent plays cost more, and their manabase is being attacked. That's a tempo trifecta.
Post-board, Thalia gives a lot of flexibility. First off, you're starting off with 3 strong Anti-combo cards already (3 Thalia MD). It's always been difficult for Goblins to have an effective SB against combo just because you need to run so many anti-combo cards SB. But when you play Thalia MD you're starting out with a higher count of Combo hate. Not only that, but you can now follow up T1 Chalice of the Void with a T2 Thalia. Or a T1 Lackey with T2 Thalia. Basically, it allows you to disrupt their game while putting on a clock. This has always been difficult for Goblins. Having access to a 2 in 1 tool like Thalia gives Goblins a lot more tempo reach.
Against creature decks Thalia is easily sided out for Pyrokinesis.
Thalia makes it much more difficult for mana-light decks like Dredge to cast their Free spells. LED costs 1. Breakthrough costs U1. A flashback on Faithless Looting is now R3.
@FoxBlade asking Why not just run Thorn? because this is Legacy! We've got duals, fetches, Caverns, and Vials. It isn't difficult getting Thalia in play. And if you're going to pay 2 for the same effect, you might as well get the one that can attack and block as well. You mentioned that your opponent will just use removal on Thalia. But what if you lead with T1 Lackey? Where's their removal now? They now need to choose between Lackey and Thalia, and yet BOTH of them are must-answer cards to most decks.
Thalia was first popularized in the Maverick deck as a 3-of. It was used as a body that could slow down opposing Combo and Control decks, and in conjunction with Wasteland would wreck opposing manabases.
At GP Altanta Sawyer Lucy took 6th place with a Rwu Goblin build that included 3 Thalia maindeck. This was the first time I recall seeing a Thalia build place well at a major tournament.
Thalia in a Goblins deck serves an almost identical purpose to Thalia in Maverick: it slows down opposing combo plays. Like Maverick, Goblins has no way of searching for Thalia or shuffling away multiples in hand. Unlike Maverick though, Goblins cannot protect a resolved Thalia with Mom, nor can it equip Thalia. But Thalia still beats for 2, and can be cheated in with Vial.
I really like Thalia, she is a hell of a creature, but:
1. Your mana base get worst, as FoxBlade explained.
2. She is not a goblin, so you cant tutor her, cant draw her with ringleader.. it makes a lot of interactions of the deck worst.
3. People usually brings creature hate from side, using a creature as response dont seems good. I´ve tried using phyrexian revoker in place of needle, by the same motives that gobolord is using for thalia, it swings, can see game through vial or caverns.. but that didnt worked as I imagined.
I´ve used Thalia a lot in modern, in a lot of differents white decks, she is really nice, but even in a deck that abuse of her she is not that awesome. I can be wrong, but I dont think Thalia is an auto-include in goblins deck. This arguments seem valid to me.
Oh and one last thing. I took of my thorns from my SB, they are good, but cant answer ominitell, so I replace them with trinisphere, I am still testing but sounds good, it works against RUG and the others combos as well AND you can use it by show and tell so they cant win in the same turn by omni.
Umm, the point isQuote:
Originally Posted by FoxBlade
It is the entire reason to run Thalia over Thorn. It beats for 2, it's a creature, gobs plays Vials, gobs wants to swing with creatures, thalia is one.
That's great that you don't care, but then dont ask for answers if youre going to respond with a " i dont care".
Also,They cant afford to remove Thalia when Piley, Lackey, Krenko, SGC are in your deck
Guys, gonna play a big event in a few weeks, and Im playing gobbos splashes for white for Oblivion Rings in SB, and Im considering to put some thalias in too. Running 2 plateaus, 3 caverns and a standard mono red base deck. What should i take out from main our SB for the Thalias ?! Our maybe just consider combo bad matches.....
ScatmanX: Thanks for the reply. I can't afford the splash but REB and Anarchy seems legit.
You took half my sentence out of context and focused on just that one part of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
I'm not saying that I don't care for answers, both Gobolord and jrw1985 provided some sound reasons for her inclusion. So, thank you both for your replies.
What I don't care for is when people point out the obvious. I can see that Thalia is a creature, so it's pretty obvious that she can swing for damage. So I don't care for answers that point out obvious things like "You can tap her and she'll hit your opponent for 2 damage", because by that logic, why not include creatures "XYZ, they swing for damage too!"
Basically what I'm saying here is that when someone answers you with that kind of reply, it doesn't provide a good reason to warrant her inclusion.
I think it is good to have discussions like these, I am still a bit skeptical of Thalia, but Gobolord and jrw1985's answers to my question have convinced me that I should at least consider and test her.
Gray OgreQuote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Admittedly, on paper Thalia isn't much. You have to test her to see her value. Now when you test her you will know if she is as to your playing style or not. I've only tested her on MWS and while she was good, it really isn't up to my playing style. I dislike splashes, especially since white splash is a bit meh. And then the fact that you need to add 3 to do any good since you can't tutor her, diluting your deck. You end up splashing solely for Thalia. But you would understand what the fuzz is about if you do try her out.
Small tournament today, 29 people. I did horribly, but oh well...
MonoRed build - 22 lands, Tuktuk as artifact removal. 1 SGC, 1 Krenko.
Sideboard:
3 Angel of Despair
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Pyrokinesis
I went MonoRed. I had a feeling I would do poorly and I delivered.
As a player, I tend to do poorly in unpracticed situations. Practice makes perfect... and I was prepared for Show and Tell and RUG Delver.
Round 1 - Chris with U/R Homebrew
He goes Volcanic Island, Flamekin Harbinger? Finding Nivmagus Elemental and putting it on top of his library. I chuckle and do what Goblins does. I flood the board with goblins, among them SGC and Sharpshooter. He plays Apostle's Blessing on my SGC because he had previously enchanted his elemental with Clout of the Dominus, Dazes the Blessing, Forces the Daze, then Flusterstorms exiling everything. Nivmagus is huge now but every time he attacks he loses 3 due to SGC and Sharpshooter. He concedes with 1 card in hand and 11 life.
I don't know how to board so I put in REB and PBlast
Game 2 he plays Delver turn 1. It flips and swings above my team. It ends with him Flinging the Delver to kill me.
Game 3 I board out the blue hate in favor for Pyrokinesis.
I keep a lousy hand thinking game 2 was luck and I'd draw into business. I did, but...
Kept Vial, Chieftain, Prospector, and 4 lands. Drew into Krenko which I expected to seal the deal. He apparently sided in a ton of burn. Forked Bolt kills my Prospector. Same for the Chieftain. Lightning Bolt killed Krenko all while 2 flipped Delvers beat my face in...
*sigh*
Round 2 - Sam with Zombardment
Again a deck I have never played against. He is running 4 colors and I get to find out the hard way that Deathrite Shaman first ability is a mana ability and cannot be responded to with Relic...
Game 1 I scoop when he gets Goblin Bombardment online and kills every dude I play.
Out: 3 Piledriver, 1 Vial, 1 Tuktuk. In: 3 Relic, 2 Needle.
Game 2 I learn about the Shaman... *sigh*. I do manage to Matron for Sharpshooter to kill 4 Lingering Souls tokens, a Bloodghast, and a Gravecrawler before he uses Zealous Persecution to end a combat step in his favor.
Round 3 - Bye... Yaaay a win!
Round 4 - Gil with Charbelcher
Played against this guy before. He plays Goblins. I mentally prepare myself for the mirror when I ask about the matches he won. He beat a friend of mine who had told me about a loss to a Belcher player...
Game 1 - He combos off too early to get 8 goblins. I play MWM knocking it down to 5. I then play 2/2's whittling down his army so only 2 remain by the time I Matron for Sharpshooter for the win.
Game 2 - He wins his turn 1 or 2.
Game 3 - He probes 3 times then storms for 16 goblins. Oh well :rolleyes:
Round 5 - Eric with RUG Delver
I always enjoy playing against Eric. Last time I saw him was in a top 8 and he was on Sneak and Show with 1 Omni.
Game 1 I lead with Lackey. He gets a Ringleader in for me then does nothing while I stall with MWMs. I force him to use his counter magic on my Piledrivers before playing Krenko and winning.
Game 2 my Vial gets forced but I also have Cavern. This game was quicker but ended the same way. Krenko.
So I never saw Show and Tell and when I finally played RUG it no longer mattered... I guess that's how it goes some times.
Could you please stop disrupting our discussions with nonsense like this? If you got a problem with FoxBlade's viewpoint I suggest that you just PM him. However, if you want to participate in the discussions of this thread then I must ask you to do so in a polite tone. Your last replies were not contributing to the discussion, but were meant to discredit a certain user - this is something I don't want to see here.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
@ Ace//Homebrew:
Thank you for the report.
I wonder why you sided out Piledriver against Zombardement. I see the MU as follows: when 70% of their creatures either can't block or should not be used to block (Blood Artist) I think our best plan would be to outrace them. Could you tell us what was behind your boarding plans?
This is hilarious, although I'm pretty sure he can't cast the Blessing on your SGC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Played SCG Indy open yesterday trying to defend my title. Ended up 5-2-1. Rd 1 lost to dredge. Rd 2 beat dredge. Rd 3 crushed Maverick. Rd 4 crushed the mirror. Rd 5 Draw against miracles. Rd 6 beat miracles. Rd 7 lost to belcher(turn oned me both games :( Rd 8 beat BuG control. Ended up 33rd. Things to note: a lot of Rug delver miracles/Stoneblade in the room and a hell of a lot of goblins. Still felt like I was playing at a high level and couldn't lose to fair decks.
What was your list? Would love a tournament report :)Quote:
Originally Posted by B-rad
My mono red build has just been raped by a card called form of the dragon, stops non flyers attacking and does 5 damage to me each turn. They built their deck around it to cheat it into play.
So as it is an enchantment i auto considered krosan grip, but then i noticed the drawback is the player falls to 5 life each turn, and with my tarfires i thought it may be worth considering fireblast, discard 2 mountains to avoid paying cost and do 4 damage to target creature or player.
I then thought that maybe with a chieftain build with tarfires and SGC, maybe extra burn would be extremely effective and add a surprise package. Has anyone ever tried fireblasts in goblins?
a second thought totally unconnected was the card trinisphere, an artifact that makes any spell less than 3, cost 3 to cast. has anyone ever tried it as we have a higher mana curvr than most and can cheat cards into play.
2 days ago I have attended small, 4-rounds tournament. Played simillar do Jim Davis' list with fallowing changes:
-2 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Fetch
-1 Mountain
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Karakas
+1 Plateau
+1 Krenko, Mob Boss
Sb: Was -2 Angel of Despair (I only have one)
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Stingscourger
Won 2-1 against Nic-fit (thank you Krenko)
1-1 draw against Bant due time limit (game 2 took us quite long – I had 930 (again thank you Krenko) goblins and my opponent behind Dueling Grounds and me shooting him dead with Siege-Gang Commander).
I won 2-1 against some kind of tempo/rock BUG deck with delvers, oozes, bobs, goyfs and so on.
Won 2-1 against RUG tempo *****.
After 4 rounds I was first (I was the only player with 10 points) but one lad from top4 wanted to play additional round for prize split. Unfortunately I lost 2-1 against Omniscience. Still It was kind of funny to see some surprised faces when the audience looked at bald angel among other goblins. The last game I lost due my play error – I was on the draw and kept my 7 with 2 lands, Red Elemental Blast, Stingscourger. My opponent was sculpting his hand and played t3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He predicted I had REB in hand because I always try to save 1 untaped mountain. When he played Jace he immediately wanted to put it into his graveyard just to provoke my red counterspell. Stupid me - I fell into his trap. Next turn he played S&T into omniscience. Anyway – what you would do? Let the Jace resolve? Muligan this hand?
Did you have any creatures in play? If so, I guess you should've had Jace resolve since S&T into Omniscience is a bigger threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
If he hadn't put his Jace in the graveyard immediately then it might not be wrong to counter it. It could just as well his only threat.