Miracle Control

I played like absolute garbage yesterday but still managed to top32 the SCG Open in Nashville yesterday with this list:

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brianstorm
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wear // Tear
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage

I went 6-2-1, beating Thresh, Jund, Belcher, Goblins, Elves, and Esper Stoneblade. I lost to UR Omniscience and UWR delver, and drew the last round since top32 is the same prize and I got to watch our carmate play his win and in for top8.

I 100% should have won against UWR delver in round 3, and I hope my mistake is the worst I will ever make playing magic - I was ahead on board in game 2 after winning game 1 but I was only at 1 life and I got distracted while brainstorming with Jace and decided to fetch without double checking my life total. I obviously got punished in game 3. HILUDSHDASDmasmdjmpds!!! I was glad to be able to mentally recover and keep going after losing like that in round 3, and I'll never do that again!

The list felt extremely solid and there are no changes I currently want to make. I was too frustrated after round 3 and forgot to keep my notes, so they went in the trash and this is the only report I'm going to write.

I'm close to finishing the primer though!

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I played like absolute garbage yesterday but still managed to top32 the SCG Open in Nashville yesterday with this list:
I'm close to finishing the primer though!

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Congrats on your finish Brian. SCG list says you have 2 MM in the SB, and your list here has 13 cards in the SB. Looking at the list, you seem more artifact/enchantment focused, as supposed to Joe's spell focused. Looks like you've decided to MD your artifact/enchantment removal via EE and Wear//Tear. With this set-up and running only 2 pierces, I feel it's weaker against combo game 1 (you have to get lucky to make EE Wear//Tear useful against combo). However, looking at your MU, you only run into 2 combo MU out of 9 (drew match unknown) anyway.

WTF is a UR Omni? Isn't Omni mono U?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Congrats on your finish Brian. SCG list says you have 2 MM in the SB, and your list here has 13 cards in the SB. Looking at the list, you seem more artifact/enchantment focused, as supposed to Joe's spell focused. Looks like you've decided to MD your artifact/enchantment removal via EE and Wear//Tear. With this set-up and running only 2 pierces, I feel it's weaker against combo game 1 (you have to get lucky to make EE Wear//Tear useful against combo). However, looking at your MU, you only run into 2 combo MU out of 9 (drew match unknown) anyway.

WTF is a UR Omni? Isn't Omni mono U?

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There's definitely 2 Meddling Mages there, I'll edit that in.

I've been playing against less combo locally and I feel like the board should be enough to win those matchups - I certainly feel good about them. The plan here is to crush fair decks into the ground, and this list certainly does.

UR Omni is the old list with Burning Wish and whatnot that aims to SnT Emrakul or Omniscience. There's probably a thread on here somewhere.

Congratulations Brian Plattenburg ! (i guess :laugh: )

How has been your maindeck Wear/Tear ?
Did your MD Mountain cause you problems sometimes ?

Here is the list i'm willing to play at GP Paris :

1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Ponder
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
SB: 1 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Terminus

That's basically the list i finished 12th at the BOM8 with (- 1 CB + Snap and -1 Venser + 1 SCM in the SB). I wanted to play the Mountain MD but i think it's better in the board as long as your sideboarding plan can accept it. I really like the Ponders to find Top more easily, to be able to keep more hands and to have a supplementary shuffle effect with Top when needed.

Talking about sideboard plans, here are mine :

I gladly accept every criticisms as long as it's argued ^^ .

UWR Delver : + 1 W/T, 1 EE, 3 REB, 1 Verdict, 1 Terminus, 1 Mountain, 1 SCM
- 4 FoW, 2 Counterspell, 1 Jace ... then i'm hesitating i might remove 1 Counterbalance and 1 Tundra on the draw... or maybe one more Jace... not sure about that.

BUG Delver : + 3 RiP, 3 REB, 1 Terminus, 1 Verdict, 1 EE, 1 Mountain
- 4 FoW, 3 Counterbalance, 1 SCM, 1 Counterspell and 1 Tundra or 1 Counterspell (depending if i saw Liliana and if i start or not)

Deathblade : I tested this matchup for the first time Saturday night, i won 4-2 preboard and got crushed afterboard something like 10-4 ... i boarded out my Swords and sure enough he always played SFM t2 (often after a Thoughtseize) searching for SOFAF and my pain started from here... Having more experience on the matchup now, i would side like this :

+ 1 W/T, 3 REB, 1 Terminus, 1 SCM, 1 R
- 4 FoW, 1 Tundra, 2 Spell Pierce

Jund : + 1 W/T, 1 EE, 3 RiP, 1 Terminus, 1 Verdict, 1 Needle
- 4 FoW, 2 CB, 1 SCM, 1 Jace

Sneak and Show : + 1 Mountain, 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Needle, 1 W/T, 1 SCM
- 3 StP, 4 Terminus/Verdict, 1 Plains, 1 Entreat

Storm : + Mountain, 3 REB, 2 RiP, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 SCM
- 2 Jace, 1 StP, 4 Terminus/Verdict, 2 Entreat

Without knowing my storm opponent's sideboard, you would expect Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant, so i would keep 2 StP even if i hate that.
I would modify my plan knowing that my opponent brings Carpet of Flower or Defenser Grid instead.
Against a TES version, i would bring 1 EE and keep 1 Terminus instead to have an out for Empty the Warrens.

Elf : + 1 EE, 1/2 Flusterstorm, 1 Verdict, 1 Terminus, 1 SCM
- 2 Jace, 2/3 V. Clique, 0/1 Counterspell

I like Flusterstorm on the draw to be able to counter an early NO, Glimpse or GSZ. I prefer Counterspell on the play though. V. Clique is nice but probably our worst card with Jace... sure it's nice to remove a big threat but V. Clique alone won't make the race, doesn't block well and the plan is rather to wrath once or twice then to make some angels to win.

Miracles : + 1 EE, 1 W/T, 1 Mountain, 3 REB, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 SCM
- 3 StP, 4 Terminus/Verdict, 1 Plains

Death and Taxes : 1 Mountain, 1 W/T, 1 EE, 1 Needle, 1 Verdict, 1 Terminus, 1 SCM
2 Pierce, 2 Force of Will, 2 Counterbalance, 1 Counterspell/V. Clique

I used to side out 2 or 3 Cliques but Spirit of Labyrinth gave more value to our Cliques and i'm really afraid of Cataclysm (the reason i keep in 2 FoW).

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Originally Posted by UB Control

Hi All!

I am over the National Legacy League Top8 I mentioned in this thread before. That is a five event league and a top8. There was no time limit and 3 games had to be won.

This is the list I played. The basic of it was constructed by Picely89 in last April the changes and sideboard plan was inspired by Einherjer’s list and my predictions for this specific metagame.

2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Myscic Gate
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Mountain

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I'm glad "my" list worked out for you.


@Shaka

I don't think you should worry too much about Spirit of the Labrynth. It does make EOT Terminus a bad draw, but it's just another two drop against EE, natural Termini, STP, etc.

I'll likely be running my list at a Qualifier tournament this Saturday. I'll post back with results.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

Elf : + 1 EE, 1/2 Flusterstorm, 1 Verdict, 1 Terminus, 1 SCM
- 2 Jace, 2/3 V. Clique, 0/1 Counterspell

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I feel like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are probably worse than Clique or Counterspell. This could be wrong, but I'm also not crazy about Entreat against Elves. I'm a bit on the fence about Entreat here because certain blocking situations can be very nice, but I feel like I'd rather have more controlling elements.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I would certainly classify Delver decks as creature decks.

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Ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Moat definitely requires set-up. You don't want to run Moat into Daze/Spell Pierce.

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Assuming you resolve it, Moat doesn't need additional setup like for example Blood Moon. Obviously you don't want to walk into counters when you don't have to. You could argue that the setup required is simply prioritizing your removal for fliers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Moat is no longer the best against Jund and Shardless, because they are all freaking out about TNN and they start to pack in Golgari Charm.

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Moat doesn't always win the game like Blood Moon or Entreat can, but at the very least it will buy you some time while they look for their 2-3 outs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Seriously, do you actually put your hope on Moat against Dredge when you have RiP? What an understatement.

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Not all starting hands contain RIP, and RIP doesn't do you any good when you are staring down lethal Zombie tokens. There are some scenarios against Dredge where only a sweeper or a Moat can save you.

@ Shaka1333 - I've almost never had the Mountain be an issue, and it sure does seem like you bring it in a lot...


I definitely don't like pierces or flusterstorm vs elves. I tend to shave Entreat too, as it's only useful when the game is locked up already. Jace is usually a better way to win in my experience.

In general:

I like moat against non-BUG delver decks because only delver can fly over, and it just so happens that we have all these extra removal spells for him with REBs...

Ran my regular list against a bunch of DnT last night, and it wasn't awful. However, the opponent suggested changes. Here was the list I ran:

1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Unexpected Absence

//

1 Flusterstorm
1 Canonist
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
3 REB
1 Venser
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 EE
2 Wear/Tear
2 Rest in Peace

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The suggestion was that EE is a good catch all answer, and I'm boarding it in decently often, so why not cut a Plow for it in the main, since 3 STP, 3 Terminus, 1 Verdict, 1 UA, and 1 EE is still a lot of removal (but one less STP, which I know many of you are doing, but thoughts on this?).

Also, the gent suggested to cut the Ponder for another real land. I like having the extra shuffle, but 22 has been a *tiny* bit worse. I have played more than a few games where I've had to mull/miss land drops. Whether or not this is just observational bias or an actual problem is really hard to say, but I usually play 23 lands in a anything that's not tempo. Then, the real question is, what am I cutting for the 23rd land? Do I cut the Ponder again? I don't know.

Another issue was the board. The argument was, "why play Venser if not in the main?" I'll be honest, I think the real way to run Venser well is to run him, alongside 3 Clique, in the main with 2 Karakas in the manabase. I just felt like I was never using Venser, or he wasn't as useful in enough matchups to warrant maindeck inclusions. I also didn't like 2 Karakas in the manabase (as as such, 1 became the Ponder). I like him for Control matchups, Sneak and Show, and a few others. I still think he's fine as a board strategy, but thoughts?

Also, it was suggested to up the Flusterstorm count to 2, and up REB to 4. I notice a lot of the lists are doing this, and I'm considering it since I think Fluster has a bit more play against more decks than Canonist, althought Canonist is pretty amazing against the decks it's great against.

So, retooling the board, I'm thinking:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast (I have 3 mint Alpha REB, so the Pyro has to be FBB German :/ )
2 Wear/Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Venser, Shaper Savant


Now, another issue. With SCG Seattle coming up for me, and all these Lands decks doing REALLY well, is it reasonable to include a Singleton Blood Moon in the board just to crush the matchup? Same with 12 Post. Those matchups do show up a bit more in Seattle just due to the meta. Does anyone else think this is a reasonable hedge? Or, at least for lands, is Rest in Peace enough?

-Matt

@sdematt

EE is a good catch-all, but I'd be concerned about shaving snapcaster-able cards in that list.

I think Ponder is way better than a 23rd land, as it makes more hands without top keepable and adds an additional blue card for force and an extra shuffle for counterbalance. I'm constantly trying to find room for more Ponders.

I've always found Venser to be clunky, and the second Karakas basically isn't a useful land anyways - we can't afford too many nonblue lands.

Cannonist or Meddling Mage is much better than flusterstorms IMO, as combo now has to fight two types of disruption, making their life much harder.

I'm surprised to see you still on Unexpectedly Absent, as it was almost always completely un-castable for me.

I was Matt's opponent re: those comments.

@ Matt: I still think you should cut one E Tutor in the board (for 1 total); it'll give you more room for bullets and thus allow to slide that Ethersworn Canonist back in. I agree with alphastryk that making combo fight more types of disruption is the overall better plan. Re combo, what I'd like to see postboard is the following:

4 REB/Pyro Blast
1 E Tutor
x RIP
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Clique
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pierce (more on this later)

Overall plan here being to blast their cantrips, Snapcaster them back to start a clock, land Clique and/or Canonist, and continue the tempo disruption while beating.

2 Clique isn't enough to see it reliably in the matchup IMO, so if you aren't going to MD Venser (which I still think is the right call) you should cut the one in the board for the 3rd Clique. Unfortunately, Meddling Mage is sweet but without any way to bullet it into your hand I don't think its worth it as a 1 of. I usually play 3 copies of my preferred hatebear to ensure finding them by t2 but there is just not enough room in the board here, so unfortunately I think we have to pass on MM.

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@ EE, Unexpectedly Absent - I also agree that it's important to keep the instant count up for Snapcaster; I'd personally cut the UA but it DOES play well with Snap and has some flexibility + surprise factor. Matt cited it as an important answer to Liliana. EE is just super versatile in general and is an additional answer to TNN & Lil that Matt is concerned about, and in that sense makes some sense over the 4th Plow. Also worth noting that EE is REALLY good against Delvers and D&T.

I might also look to the 2nd Counterspell as a slot that could be flexible... I like 3 Pierce as early answers. I understand the game often goes long, but 3 copies will find their way into your opener far more frequently and that's where the card shines. It's somewhat dead late but additional answer to Vial (& other stupid T1 plays) is valuable in this kind of deck. They can always be boarded out for the grindy matchups, and help out vs combo, especially w/ Snaps.

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This is what I would suggest as a SB

4 R Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Clique
1-2* Wear // Tear
1 E Tutor
1 Canonist
2 RIP
1 Moat
1 Needle
and 1 Flex if you want to cut a Wear // Tear. (I'd like a tutor target here: Cursed Totem, Ensnaring Bridge, Grafdigger's Cage, Blood Moon)

Given that the EE would be popping into the 'main. I'd also be OK with dropping the 2nd Flusterstorm for something (maybe the 2nd E tutor, as long as there are enough bullets). Just gonna say that 'Bridge looks pretty good right now; great vs Sneak & Show (obv) and is CMC3 for their S&Ts; awesome vs elves too. Maybe even over Moat... And ofc there is Blood Moon for the Lands MUs. This is all pointing to my feelings that the more options we include in our E Tutor 'Board, the better :)

Back to Basics could be an option over Blood Moon. LOTS of potential in SB options here.

/ A million Edits

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One last thing that we were discussing that Matt didn't mention - What's the logic behind the 2 Entreat Main / 1 Side that we are seeing some people play? What are the matchups in which we want 3 main specifically? This is not very obvious so help will be much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by MrShine

One last thing that we were discussing that Matt didn't mention - What's the logic behind the 2 Entreat Main / 1 Side that we are seeing some people play? What are the matchups in which we want 3 main specifically? This is not very obvious so help will be much appreciated.

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According to a famous streamer, you would have 3 Entreat for every non-combo match-up.

My opinion is that even if you're against fast vial deck, Entreat for 1 early is ok, because you might just need more blocker to stabilize.

many of sdematt's questions like Blood Moon thing have been discussed over and over, not interested in re-do it again.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

According to a famous streamer, you would have 3 Entreat for every non-combo match-up.

My opinion is that even if you're against fast vial deck, Entreat for 1 early is ok, because you might just need more blocker to stabilize.

many of sdematt's questions like Blood Moon thing have been discussed over and over, not interested in re-do it again.

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Sure, they've been discussed over and over, but I'm interested in the opinion - I know of the merits of the card choices, and most of the small tweaks are mainly preferences. The real question is, is it WORTH hedging the bet against the rise of a certain percentage, in your opinion? I know most of you did run it at some point, but now don't for your general meta/area or whatever.

-Matt

I really think the 3rd entreat needs to be somewhere in the 75. It hugely improves all the noncombo matchups, and provides a better way to interact with Liliana - just ambush her with angels instead of narrower cards. It lets you use entreat for 1 or 2 early to pseudo-wrath your opponent if they attack into it, and it makes you much stronger against opposing walkers because you have instant attackers.

Ensnaring Bridge is a good tutor target against Sneak and Reanimator and whatnot, but it's not a Moat replacement - it usually locks out your Entreat tokens too, so you can't use it effectively against creature decks where Moat would be excellent.

I'm not convinced Blood Moon is needed, and RiP is usually much better hate for Lands anyways. Blood Moon can also be a huge trap - we badly need our fetchlands to have top work as intended, and you can cripple yourself far too easily with Blood Moon.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I really think the 3rd entreat needs to be somewhere in the 75. It hugely improves all the noncombo matchups, and provides a better way to interact with Liliana - just ambush her with angels instead of narrower cards. It lets you use entreat for 1 or 2 early to pseudo-wrath your opponent if they attack into it, and it makes you much stronger against opposing walkers because you have instant attackers.

Ensnaring Bridge is a good tutor target against Sneak and Reanimator and whatnot, but it's not a Moat replacement - it usually locks out your Entreat tokens too, so you can't use it effectively against creature decks where Moat would be excellent.

I'm not convinced Blood Moon is needed, and RiP is usually much better hate for Lands anyways. Blood Moon can also be a huge trap - we badly need our fetchlands to have top work as intended, and you can cripple yourself far too easily with Blood Moon.

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Fair enough. If RIP is good enough against Lands, then I'm okay with not running it. I haven't tested the matchup enough with this list to come to that conclusion. I doubt I'll it 12 Post, so screw it.

-Matt

I've been liking Blood Moon again lately, but I've also been battling a lot of 12-Post believe it or not. Still, I think it's great against BUG and Lands both, so if you expect many of those then I'd consider it. It's really good against UWR as well. I'm not a fan of EE and I'm not crazy about Unepexdedly Absent. I'm also considering cutting my second Venser (from the SB) for a Humility, which is a lot more narrow but much bombier against Sneak and Show.

The third Entreat could also come in for game 3 against anything if time is a major concern.

yup, so many Lands (Marit Lage) Bug and Rug not to like Blood Mountain back again.
Just Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman can be a pain

Also, I mentioned 3 decks that play 4 Wastelands each (+ Stifle or eventual recursion)

I remember a streamer's mentioned that Miracle's traditional (Angel) build is better than the RiP-Helm build, post Legend rule change. The population has finally arrived at that conclusion and SCG Nashville is an evidence of that.

Absent can be described as Cute, rather than consistently useful. In a deck you wish you could run more Clique and Venser, I would rather have Absent to be absent.

If you're gonna run Humility where your win condition is Angel-beats, might as well try Bridge first.

Blood Moon only works in conjunction with Tutor. With all the slots it would take to make the package consistent (have it in time) and still have to weary about a resolved Blood Moon getting blown up, I rather use those SB slots for something else.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I've been liking Blood Moon again lately, but I've also been battling a lot of 12-Post believe it or not. Still, I think it's great against BUG and Lands both, so if you expect many of those then I'd consider it. It's really good against UWR as well. I'm not a fan of EE and I'm not crazy about Unepexdedly Absent. I'm also considering cutting my second Venser (from the SB) for a Humility, which is a lot more narrow but much bombier against Sneak and Show.

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What miserable hellacious place are you battling where there is a lot of 12-post? Moon is one of the few ways to solve that one, and it's still not good.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

What miserable hellacious place are you battling where there is a lot of 12-post? Moon is one of the few ways to solve that one, and it's still not good.

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Ha. Well, out of our usual twenty or so players at my weekly Legacy, one has consistently been on 12-Post for the last six or eight weeks. We've been pretty regularly seeing each other by the end of the tournament. Last week there was also another 12-Post, but I don't know yet if he's going to play it regularly.

Despite about a 40% game win percentage (maybe a little less), I've only won two matches, both last week (which definitely padded the %).

Blood Moon is definitely good, but Clique is probably one of the most powerful cards I've seen against them. Entreat and Counterbalance are also very good. I've got some more notes on the MU if you want me to message you anything.