[Deck] Dredge

We can't support it of course, but if we could, Standstill would be hilarious in Dredge.
I'm just daydreaming with Force in mind.... :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Well, I'm going to try to run a quad when I get my hands on two more Forces.
Postboard, that'd be 2 PAms, 3 Breakthroughs, 4 Studies, 4 Narcos, and 4 Forces, so 16 pitchable blue cards (17 if people run a fourth Breakthrough).

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I've been running the same as above, but with 4 Bthru - it's feels blue enough, I've had a few whiffs but not a lot surprisingly

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I am pretty certain that Serenity is the call.

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I like Serenity. I think you're right on this one, although;
The more I play Legacy, the more common Chalice seems to get - we definitely need a way to answer RiP & Cage thru X=1.
Abrupt Decay is good too, but Serenity essentially being able to kill anything that Bridges doesn't care about, even if it is vulnerable to both removal and counter, is pretty handy.

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Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum

Have you considered Energy Field against Leyline? After dropping it you could beat your opponent with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps to death.

One problem is that most opponents don't necessarily mull to Leyline. Decks that also run Deathrite Shaman probably mull to either Leyline or Shaman and Eldrazi pilots to either Chalice or Leyline.
Another problem is that decks that run Leylines could also run Decays or in case of Eldrazi Ratchet Bombs, so dropping Energy Field isn't a guaranteed win.

All in all, this could be one of my many silly ideas :P Just some food for thoughts, you have the experience!

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That feels like a super-slow plan to me. Gut says you'd end up burning yourself out with Confluences, Coliseums, and Cities of Brass in order to keep pressure on the opponent, and any of your creatures that died would disappear forever. And all that is assuming they don't just shoot the Energy Field with something and counterattack with six 2/1s for the kill.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I think it's obvious that I don't have an issue running 2CMC cards out of the SB. Since I started running Decay with Petals over two years ago. And Wear/Tear before that. And it does open up other SB options, but I don't believe the trade off in consistency is worth it.

That said, I ONLY bring in the Serenities vs Leyline/Chalice decks. Or random outliers like MUD. 14 mana sources is enough to reliably cast them. The issue is that it's not enough to mull to them. That is to say, I don't believe it's worth it to mull a hand that is likely to win if they don't have Leyline, to try and find an answer to Leyline. The odds of hitting the Serenity, the mana to cast it, and action, are too slim. There's the issue. I could run something like Wispmare, much easier to cast. But then you run into the multiple Leyline problem. Or the they still have Chalice problem, because you can't get started through it. And you've devoted the same amount of slots to the problem, diluting your deck just as much. I don't believe that the latter is a better option. Though it does give at least the possibility to play through Chalice, I don't believe the odds of winning there are significantly better.

And for at least the third time; I bring in only Force vs. DnT. I haven't come anywhere close to losing to that deck since this change. It's incredibly easy to either put enough on board to win before their hate, or just counter their hate and do as you please. The White Stompy decks running the full 4 RiP have been almost as easy. I think I've dropped one game.

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That makes sense. If the meta calls for it then I can definitely see needing Serenity. As it stands my current meta only involves a couple if not just 1 competitive deck that actually plays Leyline of the Void. I do, however, see chalice more often but generally speaking there are still some ways to get around that effect whether it be via Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, Street Wraith, and/or still being able to cabal therapy. It is not ideal of course, but at least I don't flat out lose the game like I would against a free Leyline.

Maybe against decks packing Leyline/Chalice there can be a world where we still board in FOW but perhaps bring in additional blue cards that are still able to aid against both these cards I'm thinking something like Echoing Truth. This doesn't destroy their permanents though so I'm not sure how effective it would be.

As for your analysis regarding Serenity I completely agree I'm never going to throw a hand away that can kill my opponent on turn 1 just because it doesn't have my anti hate in it. I still like my odds of winning because assuming they don't have that 1 piece of interaction they will probably just lose the game in the same fashion they did game 1. If they do drop a hate piece then I will start to dig for an answer with Careful Study, Faithless Looting, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, the idea being that on the road to finding your anti hate piece you're also picking up more gas that will allow you to recover quickly after you've dispatched their hate. That or they drop another hate piece and then I just scoop lol.

EDIT: Also it sounds like you don't feel appreciated in this thread and or that you don't get the recognition you deserve? I mean if people really care about the archetype and are actually trying to learn from the best then there is no way they don't come accross something of yours so idk; maybe they don't know Parcher = Whitby. What I'm getting at is that you don't need validation from us really. Obviously the results speak for themselves. I did give you a shout out on the Legacy allure thing though that was cut out. xD

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Originally Posted by Que

Maybe against decks packing Leyline/Chalice there can be a world where we still board in FOW but perhaps bring in additional blue cards that are still able to aid against both these cards I'm thinking something like Echoing Truth. This doesn't destroy their permanents though so I'm not sure how effective it would be.

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Tried it. It's too many slots to SB to begin with. And all of the options are less effective than Serenity. Especially when they have two different things you want to remove.

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Originally Posted by Que

EDIT: Also it sounds like you don't feel appreciated in this thread and or that you don't get the recognition you deserve? I mean if people really care about the archetype and are actually trying to learn from the best then there is no way they don't come accross something of yours so idk; maybe they don't know Parcher = Whitby. What I'm getting at is that you don't need validation from us really. Obviously the results speak for themselves. I did give you a shout out on the Legacy allure thing though that was cut out. xD

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Who cares about recognition or appreciation? I just hate repeating myself. That's why I post what changes I make, and why, once I've tested them. I'd rather people have more successes with this deck than conceal information for my potential benefit. And I don't want to leave people's legitimate questions unanswered. But I hate posting something in detail once, and then once people see the results elsewhere, they start lining up questions about the same stuff I posted months ago.


EDIT: I am still considering going to a 1-mana solution to Leyline. Possibly Wispmare, since I agree that there are many ways to get around Chalice. But testing hasn't proven to me that the mana cost of Serenity makes it worse. Its mostly that I can't rationalize running more than 4 slots for Leyline, and have been unable effectively draw those answers. I won't run something like Claim, since if they do have Leyline and Chalice you cannot win. Wear/Tear is more likely. Since you can either have two of them, or have the 3 mana to get rid of both. Or just get one or the other in those cases.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Tried it. It's too many slots to SB to begin with. And all of the options are less effective than Serenity. Especially when they have two different things you want to remove.

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Thats fair. Its like you mentioned you're only really bringing in Serenity against Leyline/Chalice decks. And these decks are usually not packing permission.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

And I don't want to leave people's legitimate questions unanswered. But I hate posting something in detail once, and then once people see the results elsewhere, they start lining up questions about the same stuff I posted months ago.

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Haha well yeah that is true I lost count as to the number of times I've repeated myself in this thread and/or just quoted myself in reply to a posed question. I don't think that will ever really go away as we usually have new dredge pilots coming in the thread as not everyone reads the entire thread. I myself have done it too; honest mistake I swear!! lol.

But all in all I normally let the other members fill them in or refer them to the 1st page, unless of course I have some piece of information that may be specific to their case.

In a land's heavy meta, what do you guys think about including Realm Razer in the Sideboard?

I struggle against The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and I can't decide whether Realm Razer is a possible solution, or rather just going all in on the Ichorid beatdown.

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Originally Posted by AsteroidBlues

In a land's heavy meta, what do you guys think about including Realm Razer in the Sideboard?

I struggle against The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and I can't decide whether Realm Razer is a possible solution, or rather just going all in on the Ichorid beatdown.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Iona would be my third choice, so you're on the right track. Griz makes it unnecessary vs stuff like Storm though. And it doesn't do enough vs colorless stuff. Lands, Bridge, Platinum, etc. It does blow out Miracles and DnT. Unless they hit Karakas. But if it's early enough they probably can't Karakas AND RiP the same turn. Again, the inability to discard or destroy lands is the main reason. Terastodon is a close second. But I've had them have Exploration and/or Mox hands where they can Loam back Chasm and fight their way back. Also on the rare occasion you need to remove a creature. Not only can't the Don do it, you don't lose Bridges from Rider removing one.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

The only reason I run a Rider as a target is for Lands/Post. Since lands are the only thing I have no other way to interact with. Maze+Tabernacle is a big problem, and Chasm is unbeatable if they have anything to back it up. Even the FStorm hail mary doesn't work since Stage was printed. Having only one of each is rarely a problem, since you have to pick your spot and go all-in against these decks anyway. If one of the two ends up in the last few cards, and they have an unbeatable board state without me hitting Rider, it's a trade-off I'm fine with. Not worth losing more slots for such fringe decks anyway.

I bring Rider in against Show for obvious reasons, and against Miracles when I'm not running additional discard in the SB. That's it. Though there are a few more attrition-focused matchups where I will bring in the DR solo.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I guess I'll field this one. I run Griz mainly just to act as a far, far better Sphinx of Lost Truths. It's for any match where I just need to combo as quickly as possible. His stats are just a bonus. His secondary use is against some decks like Miracles. Where they might threaten Terminus and you want to use his ability to just draw and refill your hand in case they can follow up the sweeper with GY hate. Technically, you can also do some absurd, win-more stuff with Firestorm. I've had six+ zombies trapped under an Ensnaring Bridge vs Painter. Dread Griz, draw 14(up to 19), play a second land, Firestorm for 8, in response Firestorm for 8.

Rider is primarily there for Lands. They have so many different ways to mess with us that we can't interact with that Rider just blows through. They can have both Tabernacle and Chasm set up, and you can remove Chasm, and even let Tabernacle remove itself during your next upkeep. And since it exiles, they can't get either of those singletons back. It's also there for decks where you might not worry about direct hate, but need to deal with other permanents. Painter for instance might have only 1 RiP and 1 Crypt, which you might deal with, and then they drop Bridge. Rider is great against Sneak for obvious reasons. But they sometimes run Leyline of Sanctity. Your plan is to rip apart their hand to stop their combo primarily. So you can Show in Rider, or you can go off, Rider away their Leyline, and rip their hand apart. It's also immune to Karakas vs Miracles or DnT. I often use it vs Miracles just to hit lands. To guarantee they can't Terminus, or play RiP. It's also the safest target vs. Reanimator since you don't care about them getting it much. The life loss from Reanimate hurts them far more than a 5/5 hurts you, and the exile trigger is poor. He only comes in about 5-6 matchups. But if you Griselbrand into Rider by turn two, there is no realistic combination of cards any deck could put together to beat that.

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Thanks for this! I know you hate repeating yourself, but this was super helpful

If Leyline of the Void is the problem, Chain of Vapor is really good against it. Castable off every single land this deck runs. Still, you might need to make your next turn play count. Wear/Tear is a great catch-all solution, as well.

But I don't see those cards being played that often. 90% of the hate I face are Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction and Rest in Peace. I guess these are too diverse to have a catch-all answer. I focus mainly on beating Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace, because a single Surgical Extraction is manageable if your opponent doesn't know what he's targeting.

I've been toying with this sideboard for a while, Ashen Ghouls have saved my sorry ass against Surgical Extraction decks.

Deck:
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return

Sideboard:
3 Lotus Petal
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Serenity
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

I've benched the Firestorms for a while. I can't draw them if I don't run 4. Variance is a bitch. Still, I haven't lost to Deathrite Shaman on the play for as long as I can remember. On the draw, things get a little trickier.

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Originally Posted by AsteroidBlues

In a land's heavy meta, what do you guys think about including Realm Razer in the Sideboard?
I struggle against The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and I can't decide whether Realm Razer is a possible solution, or rather just going all in on the Ichorid beatdown.

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Have you considered Flayer of the Hatebound?

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Originally Posted by Chronatog

Have you considered Flayer of the Hatebound?

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Totally. Im leaning more towards Flayer because it can get around the Maze's.

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Originally Posted by AsteroidBlues

Totally. Im leaning more towards Flayer because it can get around the Maze's.

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I still feel like Ashen Rider's the go-to for this stuff. Flayer necessitates multiple Dread Returns, which is fine if you're running a bunch, but isn't so good if you're only on 1-2 in total.

Ichorid beats are surprisingly good, especially if you're running a full quad. It took me a long time to come around to moving FKZ to the sideboard, but I haven't missed it in the maindeck. There aren't that many decks we need to T1, and even if we feel that need, we don't need as many Dread Returns to use the FKZ as we do to use Flayer.

The principal strength I've noticed with Dread Return is that we can get zombies from it even if it gets countered. The payload matters surprisingly little unless there's a specific threat/set of threats we need to answer or the game's really come down to the wire. Running several Dread Returns doesn't have as great an impact as you'd think unless you're on the slow-dredging plan, which most people with more experience than I have don't recommend (N.B.: I've still found slow-dredging to be workable against Chalices, though I haven't practiced it as much as I'd like to).

[EDIT: Is Maze really that big a problem? We shouldn't have trouble against something that only stops one attacker. Chasm might be a bit of a doozy, but that's something Rider can solve, too.]

I have a main deck Flayer and have played against Lands quite a few times and it doesn't help the match up at all. Maze of Ith isn't a problem since we can overrun them with zombies. For me, once they tutor for Glacial Chasm and they can recycle it with Life from the Loam, it's off to sideboarding. That's the most problematic card in my opinion. Next to Chasm would have to be Tabernacle. I agree that Ashen Rider is one of the better ways to improve our chances against Lands but it is still a very unfavorable match up based on experience.

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Originally Posted by SHABOOGS

I have a main deck Flayer and have played against Lands quite a few times and it doesn't help the match up at all. Maze of Ith isn't a problem since we can overrun them with zombies. For me, once they tutor for Glacial Chasm and they can recycle it with Life from the Loam, it's off to sideboarding. That's the most problematic card in my opinion. Next to Chasm would have to be Tabernacle. I agree that Ashen Rider is one of the better ways to improve our chances against Lands but it is still a very unfavorable match up based on experience.

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I've not faced Lands very often, so I'm not the best guy to suggest how to beat them. Your experience above is how I think about the deck too.

I like Flayer as alt-win, but I think Ashen Rider is generally a better use of space in the sideboard considering how adaptable it can be. I haven't run Flayer for a while in LED-dredge, but I maindeck it in Manaless Dredge.

And another night at the local. Went with the Force-Vapor-Serenity side, 13 Lands, 2 Prized Amalgam main.
I dropped Firestorm as I hadn't seen many tribal opponents for a while, and BAM! game one I cop Elves. (sigh)
Side = 4 Serenity, 4 Force of Will, 2 Chain of Vapor, 2 Lotus Petal, 1 Dread Return (1 in the main), 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Went 4-0 with a bye. 2-1 in all games, except Grixis, which was 2-0. Mono-G Elves, TES-Storm, Bw-Pox & Grixis.
Opponents were light-on for hate, apart from Pox with LotV, otherwise everyone else was on Surgical Extraction.
Pox was surprisingly tough for some reason, serenity saved me. DR & Iona made a mess of Elves. Therapy killed TES.

Overall I liked Serenity a lot when I played it, I brought it in more than I used Force.
Force didn't make a difference for the times I brought it in this time around, which was only against TES.
The more I think about Serenity and Force in the same sideboard, the more I'm favouring Force against stuff that nuke the yard or race us, whereas I'm favouring Serenity against Grafdigger, LotV, Chalice/Jitte type opponents.

What's your thoughts Parcher? (or anyone else who uses Serenity)
Do you find Serenity is more a catch-all than Force, with Force getting the gig against decks that can just race us or do things we can't really answer? (eg Reanimator, Storm, Rest in Peace etc.)

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Originally Posted by slave

What's your thoughts Parcher? (or anyone else who uses Serenity)
Do you find Serenity is more a catch-all than Force, with Force getting the gig against decks that can just race us or do things we can't really answer? (eg Reanimator, Storm, Rest in Peace etc.)

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Originally Posted by Parcher

That said, I ONLY bring in the Serenities vs Leyline/Chalice decks. Or random outliers like MUD. 14 mana sources is enough to reliably cast them. The issue is that it's not enough to mull to them. That is to say, I don't believe it's worth it to mull a hand that is likely to win if they don't have Leyline, to try and find an answer to Leyline. The odds of hitting the Serenity, the mana to cast it, and action, are too slim. There's the issue. I could run something like Wispmare, much easier to cast. But then you run into the multiple Leyline problem. Or the they still have Chalice problem, because you can't get started through it. And you've devoted the same amount of slots to the problem, diluting your deck just as much. I don't believe that the latter is a better option. Though it does give at least the possibility to play through Chalice, I don't believe the odds of winning there are significantly better.

And for at least the third time; I bring in only Force vs. DnT. I haven't come anywhere close to losing to that deck since this change. It's incredibly easy to either put enough on board to win before their hate, or just counter their hate and do as you please. The White Stompy decks running the full 4 RiP have been almost as easy. I think I've dropped one game.

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for what its worth I still don't believe 14 mana sources are enough for anything CMC 2. I say that because the plan of bringing in Serenity against Chalice decks doesn't seem viable when these decks play prison type cards whether they be Wasteland, Thorn, Trinisphere. I think it being sorcery speed also hurts it since your resources will be under attack the whole time and you can't just hold onto Serenity. Obviously in my build I have to run Lotus Petals for Decay which alleviates this problem somewhat. Maybe its just my own experiences. *shrugs.

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Originally Posted by Que

for what its worth I still don't believe 14 mana sources are enough for anything CMC 2. I say that because the plan of bringing in Serenity against Chalice decks doesn't seem viable when these decks play prison type cards whether they be Wasteland, Thorn, Trinisphere. I think it being sorcery speed also hurts it since your resources will be under attack the whole time and you can't just hold onto Serenity. Obviously in my build I have to run Lotus Petals for Decay which alleviates this problem somewhat. Maybe its just my own experiences. *shrugs.

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I'm no expert, but I think you're right about needing more than 14. I actually cut Decay because I'd been running two Petals (and 12 lands) and I still couldn't fire it. Obviously Decay's a taller order than Serenity (double colored mana, neither of which is attainable using Coliseum), but I just felt like I had to jam so much extra mana into the deck to make it work that it wasn't worth it.

Talking in the third person makes one look like a total dick, no matter how appropriate. @Parcher

I've seen Vintage Dredge lists use Riftstone Portal and Serenity to fight hate. Might be worth something to look at since they have around the same number of rainbow lands. Think of Coliseum producing G/W like Bazaar does in Vintage. Portal obv doesn't work against Leyline and RIP but it works against everything else (I think).

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Originally Posted by SHABOOGS

I've seen Vintage Dredge lists use Riftstone Portal and Serenity to fight hate. Might be worth something to look at since they have around the same number of rainbow lands. Think of Coliseum producing G/W like Bazaar does in Vintage. Portal obv doesn't work against Leyline and RIP but it works against everything else (I think).

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I think that if we're willing to run 13+ lands, that sounds reasonable, though I haven't tested it. (It's worth pointing out that Riftstone pays for the in-hand cost and the flashback cost of Ray of Revelation and that it facilitates Abrupt Decay.) I just have trouble with the idea that we should up our land count beyond 13, and I don't like running even that many. Too many things I want in quads, and adding lands is adding cards that don't do anything once we dredge them out.

I'll defer to other people's Judgment (LOLOLOLO!), but I don't really feel interested in running it.