[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by naynay666

Wow. After criticizing previous comments with “awful,” “dumbest,” and a sarcastic “brilliant” I definitely wasn’t anticipating two Modern decks to be posted.

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Me too...i have this vague feeling that kiwi is theory-crafting rather than speaking from experience.

Also, this dark-ritual-is-bad-with beseech argument is getting annoying. A Japanese player made top 8 with beseech and rituals. I mean, do you just stack your deck to put nether void on top of your library when you need it? The rest of us see singletons very rarely, and sometimes not in enough time to matter, so we are testing a tutor. Golly gee willickers, we're just trying to reduce variance and attempt something different.

But please, continue saying our arguments from experience are bad while you push a modern pox deck.

For me there is no reason to get over excited about an insignificant thing like magic. That is just so much "someone is wrong on the internet!"

yeah i thought it was a bit aggressive for a friendly discussion about dark ritual, though i know i run off at the mouth and maybe i was being arrogant or something.

anyway, happy to let all flowers bloom :) 8rack Pox is very different from the kind of Pox I play, I'll let Hardcore take up the ritual cause on that front if they want to

The problem is that arguments from experience aren't worth anything if there isn't enough data to draw meaningful conclusions, or the winrate isn't high enough to support the ideas anyway. 99% of posts in this thread are just people spitballing decklist ideas with little/no testing (no different to what you accuse me of doing) and the other 1% are tournament reports of people going 2-2 at FNM.

The reason why I look to modern decks for inspiration is that these decks are built and played by players who have a history of results that show that they know what they're doing, and the decks themselves have proven themselves far more than they have in legacy (by way of repeated success in modo leagues and large tournaments). What card would I have to include to make these decks 'legacy Pox'? You already know that I don't think Ritual is good, and you already know that I think 4 drops (Nether Void, Abyss) are bad in a Smallpox deck without Ritual, so what other 'legacy Pox' card were you expecting to see? Sinkhole 4x?

I'm not saying that Dark Ritual is some kind of huge nonbo with Beseech the Queen, I'm just saying there is nothing special about this combination of cards to be excited about. Does Dark Ritual help to cast your Nether Void? Yes. Does Beseech the Queen help search your library for Nether Void? Sure. Can you use BBB from Dark Ritual to cast Beseech the Queen? Yes. But I don't know why you keep citing Ritual + Beseech as some kind of superb combo, especially when you can't use Beseech to search for Nether Void unless you already control 4 lands, and if you want to Ritual-Beseech-Void all in one turn then you need a whopping 5 lands in play. (Couldn't the Ritual just be e.g. another discard spell and you make this play over 2 turns instead?).

In post 4020 in this thread you (Mr. Safety) link a list from a French tournament:

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Fair statement, but I would suggest that there *does exist* a correct version of Pox to play in this current metagame. I'm intrigued with going back into pox but I'm down to only 2x Lili of the Veil because of trades, which isn't ideal. I really like the Beseech the Queen toolbox and also the Buried Alive/4x Bloodghast plan. For now I have to explore Nic Fit, which is another fringe archetype that lets me play fun cards. I'm also curious about a Smallpox-less Pox build, which seems foolish but the one card that polarized the deck the most, other than big Pox, is Smallpox. Take away the self-sacrifice of a creature and you have much better threat options. Is mono-black Smallpox-less control an option? I just don't know.

EDIT: This list looks really fun. I would make some small changes, but overall the Beseech Package seems hot. I would drop Nether Void/Abyss/Chains/Cursed Scroll/Nether Spirit and squeeze in Buried Alive x2/Bloodghast x4. I have a hard time believing Cursed Scroll is good with Nether Void, unless you have an active Liliana of the Veil. That just adds another layer to the 'combo'. After a turn or two you'll have enough cards in hand to make Scroll whiff, which would give me the feel-bads.

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So the Beseech 'package' (literally 1 tutor in the whole deck and a bunch of 1-ofs) seems 'hot', but what you would do is cut all of the 1-ofs including Nether Void? :confused: Do you have a list that you play that does have Nether Void + Beseech + Ritual, seeing as you mentioned this combination more recently?
Also note that this deck you link has 0 copies of Dark Ritual in it.
If you do want to play the Legends enchantments (or to put it another way, if you don't want to play 8 rack) I think this build is a good place to start. I don't even think Beseech is bad (nor do I think I have ever said this, only that Ritual is not good. I have maybe not been 100% clear on this so sorry if I gave the wrong impression).
I like Geier Reach Sanitarium in lists with Chains and I think I want the 4th Liliana over the 2nd Ratchet Bomb

You can make the argument that sacrificing resources (ie. casting Dark Ritual) to play a fast lockpiece is worthwhile. The Moon deck just won a big tournament and that deck is playing Simian Spirit Guides and Chrome Mox. (Note that this deck has a huge amount of prior data behind it to say this isn't a big fluke). The difference is that the disruption of that deck is entirely in the form of lockpieces. (Moon + Magus + Trinisphere + Chalice + Bridge, the one exception is Fiery Confluence). The Moon deck isn't trying to trade cards with its opponent with Smallpox and Thoughtseize. You are happy to burn cards to slam a Moon down because you recover that lost card advantage as 'virtual card advantage' through the opponent not being able to cast spells. When your deck is built around Hymn and Inquisition rather than Moon you are fighting over actual card advantage rather than virtual card advantage because you are not doing much to lock the opponent out from casting the spells that they draw. Playing a card that's just a straightforward minus-1 is therefore very questionable. Ritual + Smallpox or Ritual + Hymn are not good combos. Even if you do have these cards like The Abyss or Nether Void to ramp into with Ritual, you are still equally or more likely to draw Dark Rituals alongside a bunch of card-trading disruption, because there are simply many more copies of Inquisition/Hymn/Smallpox in your deck. This represents a fundamental consistency problem that I think prevents Ritual from ever being very good in Pox.

A counter argument is that Liliana is effectively a lockpiece, so it's worth having Ritual so that you can play it on turn 1, but Liliana doesn't lock out the opponent in the same way that Moon/Chalice does and I think you still suffer from the problem of not having a high enough density of 'lock pieces' in the deck for this to be a consistently successful strategy in the long run.

I'm not trying to personally attack anyone (and I don't think that I have). If you don't like my ideas you can just ignore them. But if you don't want to ignore them then at least attack them in some kind of meaningful way, "hurr durr that's a modern deck" doesn't help anybody

i did feel a little attacked, but it's all good. Slightly resent the claim that we just spitball and talk without doing anything; I go out and test things out eg Karn, Braids, Necropolis Fiend, and report back with how well they went. Karn and Fiend went well, Braids not so much. I'm just one person but hey there you go.

you're right that Chalice/Moon are a different kind of lock that Lili &co. Those stop spells from being cast, while Lili, Scroll, etc, mostly just repeatedly kill their creatures. They both generate dead cards for the opponent (Lili makes topdeck creatures bad), so they have a similarity on that front, but that doesn't happen until the opponent has been run out of cards so that they are in topdeck mode. So overall the goal of the deck is to get them in topdeck mode and then blank their topdecks by having a repeatable removal source in play. I think t1 Lili does this exceptionally well, because she starts them bleeding cards right away, in a repeatable way that puts strain on them each turn. It also helps get Fiend online sooner and helps keep Scroll active. And in general I think you make a good point that the deck needs more of such 'lock pieces' if ritual is going to be good in it (i run 10-11, depending how you count). I also get that Ritual is also not trading for a card, so it fails to play into the attrition strategy on that front.

If you want a dramatic renovation to the deck, then i'd be interested to see what you're thinking and how it's been working for you. as for the ritual question, i've heard your point and while i understand it and might try it in the future i'm happy with ritual at the moment.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I'm not saying that Dark Ritual is some kind of huge nonbo with Beseech the Queen, I'm just saying there is nothing special about this combination of cards to be excited about. Does Dark Ritual help to cast your Nether Void? Yes. Does Beseech the Queen help search your library for Nether Void? Sure. Can you use BBB from Dark Ritual to cast Beseech the Queen? Yes. But I don't know why you keep citing Ritual + Beseech as some kind of superb combo, especially when you can't use Beseech to search for Nether Void unless you already control 4 lands, and if you want to Ritual-Beseech-Void all in one turn then you need a whopping 5 lands in play. (Couldn't the Ritual just be e.g. another discard spell and you make this play over 2 turns instead?)

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It took you a long time to be clear on this...

The difference is the approach. I don't think your pedantic approach does anything for the thread, the deck, or the pox community.

I don't claim to be on the verge of 'making the best pox deck ever!' If you can't see a statement like 'that looks hot' as a personal opinion, I don't know what to say. I've never claimed to own the singletons of Nether Void/Abyss/Chains, and most of the pox crowd here knows that...which really sums up what I'm trying to say: we are actively discussing what we want to do with the deck based on what we have available, whether it's good or bad. We all know it isn't a tier 1 deck, nor will it become one. Spit-balling is literally one of the most fun things to do in magic besides actually playing it. Yes this is a competitive forum, but this isn't a tier deck. That means some whacky shit gets suggested, sometimes counter-intuitive, sometimes just plain bad.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

For me there is no reason to get over excited about an insignificant thing like magic. That is just so much "someone is wrong on the internet!"

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"An internet argument is like the special Olympics. Even though you win..." :laugh::laugh:

The people who keep top 8'ing in other countries are still something to take note of. "MtG is just luck based as it's a card game." Said nobody who wins tournaments. Clayton Levi and Ryousuke Adachi must be doing something right as Pox isn't a deck to beat, therefore having it show up in tourneys in droves is a statistical impossibility. When they top 8, those decklists become the updated "Bible4Pox". Even moreso when they do it multiple times. I've removed Beseech from my list as I can't break the old Pox thread's 3 commandments: If it doesn't Deal damage, disrupt the opponent, or give mana, it shouldn't be included. Old ways die hard I guess. Which is why I love Levi's current decklist. Very aggressive and doesn't "break the old rules."

Rules to live by.

I have had those rules in mind too. However my experience is that the application of the rules is not straightforward. This is most apparent when constructing the sideboard.
Cards need not only provide mana, disruption and win cons, but also be of a type that is correct for your deck.
The quest to find these sb cards probably make up the majority of my magic card market purchases.

Hello, new to the deck, been testing it on xmage these days (lots of fun !)

What is your opinion on Damping Sphere against combo ? It seems really good against Storm decks, but is it enough to win its place in the sideboard ?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Also, this dark-ritual-is-bad-with beseech argument is getting annoying. A Japanese player made top 8 with beseech and rituals. I mean, do you just stack your deck to put nether void on top of your library when you need it? The rest of us see singletons very rarely, and sometimes not in enough time to matter, so we are testing a tutor. Golly gee willickers, we're just trying to reduce variance and attempt something different.

But please, continue saying our arguments from experience are bad while you push a modern pox deck.

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I think this is a fundamental problem with how many people build the deck. Silver bullet approach with tutors is often too slow for Legacy. If Nether Void is good, you need to be running more than one, same for Chains, same for Tabernacle. We don't have filtering, and as I have said taking a turn to find the required card is too slow. I think that if these players running tutors had access to more of the expensive cards they would run them.

But yeah. They are expensive and Old School has only made things much much worse.

I will continue testing with 1 tutor and 2 of's for the world enchantments in the board and report back.

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Originally Posted by Sibelius

I think this is a fundamental problem with how many people build the deck. Silver bullet approach with tutors is often too slow for Legacy. If Nether Void is good, you need to be running more than one, same for Chains, same for Tabernacle. We don't have filtering, and as I have said taking a turn to find the required card is too slow. I think that if these players running tutors had access to more of the expensive cards they would run them.

But yeah. They are expensive and Old School has only made things much much worse.

I will continue testing with 1 tutor and 2 of's for the world enchantments in the board and report back.

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The "silver bullet approach" makes sense if the cards you are going to tutor are here to seal the deal in the mid or late game (Abyss, Nether Void), and not not to stabilize the board.
If money was not an issue, I would still play only one NV and Abyss I guess, plus a Grim tutor. Because they do nothing when you are significantly behind.
But I would play up to 3 Tabernacle and 3/4 Chains in the 75, because those ones are very usefull to stay alive (Chains vs Storm in this case).

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Originally Posted by Sibelius

I think this is a fundamental problem with how many people build the deck. Silver bullet approach with tutors is often too slow for Legacy. If Nether Void is good, you need to be running more than one, same for Chains, same for Tabernacle. We don't have filtering, and as I have said taking a turn to find the required card is too slow. I think that if these players running tutors had access to more of the expensive cards they would run them.

But yeah. They are expensive and Old School has only made things much much worse.

I will continue testing with 1 tutor and 2 of's for the world enchantments in the board and report back.

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The counterargument is that
- This deck is so controlling (way higher density of discard/removal than most legacy decks) that you do have time to play a tutor
- Abyss and Nether Void both cost 4 so playing lots of these makes your manacurve pretty wonky
- Multiple copies of The Abyss, Nether Void, Chains, Tabernacle etc are often effectively or literally redundant, which discourages playing more than 1 copy of each
- The above point is made worse by the fact that this is a deck without Brainstorm to help shuffle dead copies away

TLDR having many copies of Nethervoid/Abyss will clunk up your hand. I don't think you can solve this with fast mana for slamming them down early because you just become a worse Moon deck

There was a version of Pox on one of the decklist archives that was more like a stompy deck, but this seems like a flawed approach. If you have lockpieces so that the opponent can't cast anything then why do you need to make them sacrifice lands or discard cards?

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

There was a version of Pox on one of the decklist archives that was more like a stompy deck, but this seems like a flawed approach. If you have lockpieces so that the opponent can't cast anything then why do you need to make them sacrifice lands or discard cards?

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I once tried a Chalice build. The idea is to is to play it T1 with X=1 and then attack their mana base so they cannot cast their higher CMC spells. Maybe this one has a future with some mox & Karn ?
But cutting TS or Innocent blood does not feel right to me. And Mono-red stompy is probably better in achieving this purpose. Too much variance because of a lack of lock pieces.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

The counterargument is that
- This deck is so controlling (way higher density of discard/removal than most legacy decks) that you do have time to play a tutor
- Abyss and Nether Void both cost 4 so playing lots of these makes your manacurve pretty wonky
- Multiple copies of The Abyss, Nether Void, Chains, Tabernacle etc are often effectively or literally redundant, which discourages playing more than 1 copy of each
- The above point is made worse by the fact that this is a deck without Brainstorm to help shuffle dead copies away

TLDR having many copies of Nethervoid/Abyss will clunk up your hand. I don't think you can solve this with fast mana for slamming them down early because you just become a worse Moon deck

There was a version of Pox on one of the decklist archives that was more like a stompy deck, but this seems like a flawed approach. If you have lockpieces so that the opponent can't cast anything then why do you need to make them sacrifice lands or discard cards?

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I feel like you haven't played a Pox deck at a Legacy tournament. We don't have time to play out tutors like you think. Games don't play out that way, games are long because the deck doesn't have a clock. We strip the hand, land a walker, and pray to the top deck gods. And while we do this the Grixis delver opponent is top decking as well. And if we stumble their top decks are a lot lot better than ours.

I didn't advocate playing the Abyss and I probably won't outside of Tezzerator.

I do advocate playing multiple copies of Chains and Nether Void in the SB. You bring them in for the matchups you need them. Then you HAVE to find them (otherwise why are you bringing them in...?) Basically you want Nether Void vs storm and Chains vs Jace decks.
The redundant copies argument is inherently flawed. Decks play multiple copies of cards because they need to play them, and they need to play them early. The only way to increase the chance of playing them is to have them in your hand. And the way to increase the chance of that? Play more of them. Our opponents also interact with us, Counters, Discard, Wastelands etc.
And lets be honest here. If you have just resolved either a Nether Void or a Chains you really don't care if you have another one in hand.

It's lines of thought like these that are a problem with lower tier decks like Pox and Nic Fit. They are not the best decks, we know that, but for some reasons it leads to a plethora of 'cute' ideas about the deck. There is no magic fix for the problems with this deck, but continually diluting the strengths will never make it good.

Wow this post got rambling fast.

Sib

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I have had those rules in mind too. However my experience is that the application of the rules is not straightforward. This is most apparent when constructing the sideboard.
Cards need not only provide mana, disruption and win cons, but also be of a type that is correct for your deck.
The quest to find these sb cards probably make up the majority of my magic card market purchases.

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Actually, my different sideboards per meta all follow those rules, except provide mana. Dark Ritual is already main decked for me. Technically the Pox SB should pretty much always disrupt the opponent: usually board clearing nukes or more disruption like pithing needles. More often than not the main deck is already disrupting extremely heavily and our sideboards are more for enchantments and artifacts/walkers/yards since Pox targets none of them.

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Originally Posted by Sibelius

I feel like you haven't played a Pox deck at a Legacy tournament. We don't have time to play out tutors like you think. Games don't play out that way, games are long because the deck doesn't have a clock. We strip the hand, land a walker, and pray to the top deck gods. And while we do this the Grixis delver opponent is top decking as well. And if we stumble their top decks are a lot lot better than ours.

I didn't advocate playing the Abyss and I probably won't outside of Tezzerator.

I do advocate playing multiple copies of Chains and Nether Void in the SB. You bring them in for the matchups you need them. Then you HAVE to find them (otherwise why are you bringing them in...?) Basically you want Nether Void vs storm and Chains vs Jace decks.
The redundant copies argument is inherently flawed. Decks play multiple copies of cards because they need to play them, and they need to play them early. The only way to increase the chance of playing them is to have them in your hand. And the way to increase the chance of that? Play more of them. Our opponents also interact with us, Counters, Discard, Wastelands etc.
And lets be honest here. If you have just resolved either a Nether Void or a Chains you really don't care if you have another one in hand.

It's lines of thought like these that are a problem with lower tier decks like Pox and Nic Fit. They are not the best decks, we know that, but for some reasons it leads to a plethora of 'cute' ideas about the deck. There is no magic fix for the problems with this deck, but continually diluting the strengths will never make it good.

Wow this post got rambling fast.

Sib

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If you're only/mainly playing Nether Void as a SB card vs Storm then why not Damping Sphere / Trinisphere instead? Castable earlier, doesn't affect you as much.
If you meant multiple Chains in the SB instead of main then I guess that's more acceptable, I thought you meant maindeck. (Or at least that's what I was thinking when I wrote that).
I don't know if tutors are correct or not, I was just laying out the reasons why they could be good.
The "games take long because you don't have a clock" doesn't make sense, if the games are taking long it doesn't matter why, you aren't dying quickly, so then you should have time to play a tutor?

In the last few posts I have been advocating for 8rack builds just because it gives you that clock to avoid the problem you describe.
Obviously most people aren't on board with this, do people feel that 8 threats is too many? I really want some feedback on this because I feel like I must be missing something.
The argument might just be "you can't afford to play cards that don't interact with the opponent", which might be correct, idk

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It's lines of thought like these that are a problem with lower tier decks like Pox and Nic Fit. They are not the best decks, we know that, but for some reasons it leads to a plethora of 'cute' ideas about the deck. There is no magic fix for the problems with this deck, but continually diluting the strengths will never make it good.

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I disagree with this. Your argument is essentially "if it aint broke dont fix it", but the win% is so low to begin with that the 'if it aint broke' part is questionable, and there is so much variation in the few lists that do place in tournaments that it's hard to claim that people are deviating from some kind of established baseline. I don't care if people post random builds in threads like Goblins/NicFit/Pox/Enchantress/Whatever because if people just keep using the same 60 then they will keep not winning.

What does your 'stock Pox deck' look like?

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

In the last few posts I have been advocating for 8rack builds just because it gives you that clock to avoid the problem you describe.
Obviously most people aren't on board with this, do people feel that 8 threats is too many? I really want some feedback on this because I feel like I must be missing something.
The argument might just be "you can't afford to play cards that don't interact with the opponent", which might be correct, idk

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disclaimer, I'm likely the least experienced pox player currently commenting, but -in the build i'm working on- 8 was just too much because I drew them too early and they were just dead cards that didn't disrupt or put me ahead/opponent behind. Maybe I didn't have the right build (see least experienced comment). But seeing an opening hand with 2 rack effects felt like I was letting the opponent in the game. Heck i'm actually thinking about dropping to 3 rack/affliction and putting in something else, just don't know what yet.

if it matters:
25 lands - mix of waste/urborg/factory/swamp.
4 pox
4 small pox
4 IoK
4 shrieking affliction
4 innocent blood
4 LoTV
4 hymn to tourach

4 BloodGhast
3 Lili, last hope (I play vs lot of elves)

I have the bottom 7 split because I feel if I wanted 8 rack, it would be those to get swapped out for other cards to further the plan. But I felt like trying those out and I like it better than the 8 rack version that is mostly the same core.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

If you're only/mainly playing Nether Void as a SB card vs Storm then why not Damping Sphere / Trinisphere instead? Castable earlier, doesn't affect you as much.

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"Nether Void can't be Abrupt Decay'd" is the reason I gave my mechanic when he asked me this morning. And as pointed out to me a few pages ago Enchantments are harder to kill than Artifacts. It can still be bounced into a window of going off or targeted discard. Although the castable earlier argument is very valid. Dampening Sphere is also a tool against 12 Post, which proved difficult recently. I have been looking for reasons to justify removing the Legends enchantments from my 75 and this warrants testing.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

In the last few posts I have been advocating for 8rack builds just because it gives you that clock to avoid the problem you describe.
Obviously most people aren't on board with this, do people feel that 8 threats is too many? I really want some feedback on this because I feel like I must be missing something.

...and there is so much variation in the few lists that do place in tournaments that it's hard to claim that people are deviating from some kind of established baseline. I don't care if people post random builds in threads like Goblins/NicFit/Pox/Enchantress/Whatever because if people just keep using the same 60 then they will keep not winning.

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A few years ago I remember reading that 8 threats was the appropriate number, but in retrospect that feels incredibly low. I suffered the same fate as most in the top deck wars for a while before raising my count to 10-12.

I jam a borderline Superfriends list with 14 ways to end the game. (that is, if you count Karnstruct tokens- I am yet to make one.)

4 Factories
2 Necropolis Feind
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
2 Lil' Hope
2 Karn

(current list is at the top of page 202)

I feel the same way about pet decks like Pox. Experimentation is a good thing. I ran Sinkhole forever but am much happier without it. Dark Ritual is my favorite card in the game of magic. In my (mostly) fair meta I don't need it. Instead I run 26 Lands (25+Maze) & 2 Totems for my 3 MD 4-drops.

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Originally Posted by naynay666

I jam a borderline Superfriends list with 14 ways to end the game. (that is, if you count Karnstruct tokens- I am yet to make one.)

4 Factories
2 Necropolis Feind
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
2 Lil' Hope
2 Karn

(current list is at the top of page 202)

I feel the same way about pet decks like Pox. Experimentation is a good thing. I ran Sinkhole forever but am much happier without it. Dark Ritual is my favorite card in the game of magic. In my (mostly) fair meta I don't need it. Instead I run 26 Lands (25+Maze) & 2 Totems for my 3 MD 4-drops.

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I think borderline superfriends is the place to be with the deck right now (at least the prison variant); either that or some kind of bloodghast plan. I'm on the same package of wincons -2 Totems and -1 LiLH, +1 spawning pool. I know I keep saying it but I love Fiend so much <3

Surprised to hear no rituals as it seems extra good with Totem to my mind - ritual totem + 1cmc discard is kinda hot. And it's great with fiend since it's +4 mana for him. Though admittedly when i played with totems i almost never wanted to ritual totem even when i could... I dunno. Totem was always lackluster to me but that's prolly just me. I'm on 26 lands (2 don't tap for mana) and 3 rituals, 4 MD 4 drops (NoSB, NVoid, 2x Karn)