[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Is the infinite life combo worth having compared to just going BUG and having cleaner mana / fewer bad cards in the deck
If you Stormcaller -> Neoform then you can just get like Leovold + Uro or Leovold + Witness etc and you're pretty far ahead
Spellseeker might be worth considering as well
GSZ > OUAT potentially

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What do you think is the best combo involving 2 3 cmc creatures? We should beat any grindy deck, the combo would be to beat unfair decks that don’t play Thassa oracle. Opposition agent plus merelen is great vs combo, only requires 1 bad card and is in colour. But it doesn’t stabilize the board and loses to any removal.

I have tried GSZ, but it doesn’t play nearly as well with Seagate (5 mana play rather than 4 mana for copying to be decent, doesn’t find Seagate).

Ok experimented with dropping the infinite combo. Replaced it with hatebears and a value combo of Liliana plus uro. uro immediately flips her, making a zombie and either pulsing, getting back a vet or cashing her in for an uro trigger. The thought is that or uro plus hatebear should beat most things but each card is strong individually, per kombatkiwi’s advice.

2 Field of the Dead
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 underground sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Once upon a time
4 Brainstorm
4 Seagate Stormcaller
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
3 Assassins Trophy
4 Neoform
2 Uro, Titan of nature’s wrath
1 Liliana, heretic healer
1 Leovold, emissary of treat
1 Plague Engineer
1 Meren of clan Nel north
4 Force of will

Yeah honestly I have no idea if it's actually better but that is the approach I would take
Interested to know how it goes
The liliana idea is pretty good

These Neoform lists look awesome, especially whatever build was the last matchup that ended up being a NicFit mirror in this video... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hAebViSo3AM&t=8467s Ouat GSZ and neoform really support Brainstorm so well.

Seagate Stormcaller for the combo seems like the slowest and clunkiest thing in these builds.

Why use up so many slots for Stormcaller and a combo when Vet turn 1, neoform turn 2 gets you to 5 mana and a guarenteed escaped uro next turn by turn 2 thanks to Snapcaster shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

(get Forest/island off of vet trigger, get a 3/2 snap with neoform, fb neoform with snapcaster get an uro, uro trigger.

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Neoform really does play amazingly well with Baleful Strix and Flash Snake.

Given those awesome line, instead of Stormcaller, I would rather play GSZs to get Dryad Arbors, and Vet Explorers, and I would make room for more silver bullets to grab with Neoform or GSZ, such as Scooze, Ouphe, Meren, Leovold, Opposition Agent, Plague Engineer, Eternal Witness, maybe even Questing Beast to Neoform up using Eternal Witness against planeswalkers and Elder Gargorath as an awesome GSZ target when you have tons of mana.

Why do you think Seagate is clunky? I built this deck primarily since sea gate is the best possible creature to cabal therapy with after vet explorer. With 8 good sac-spell enablers (vet plus Seagate) and 8 good sac-spells (therapy plus neoform) the deck consistently has one of each. T1 cabal therapy t2 Seagate double therapy can be devestating. Seagate also has a built in mana sink which seems useful in nic fit.

Unlike cabal therapy, you can’t neoform first and get explorer later. Gsz + neoform is t3 at the earliest. So that’s why I built around ouat instead of gsz. If you want gsz, ouat and brainstorm I think that’s a lot of durdle cards which don’t play nicely together. You can’t ouat into bs or gsz like ponder into bs. Green sun has anti-synergy with natural snaps, whereas natural snaps like the cards Seagate wants (trophy/brainstorm/ouat) and helps your blue count.

I do have half of those targets. Not sure you can go full maverick and still support neoform/therapy/brainstorm/fow. Seagate plus trophy is my catch all to replace the less commonly used targets like q.beast

Yes that makes sense. The list makes a lot more sense now. Seems fun. Is 2 Field of the Dead too many? Also were you the opponent Thraben U faced in the final match of that Jund Nic Fit video here...

https://youtu.be/hAebViSo3AM

The list looks identical to yours except that it played opposition agent as well, it played well.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Why do you think Seagate is clunky? I built this deck primarily since sea gate is the best possible creature to cabal therapy with after vet explorer. With 8 good sac-spell enablers (vet plus Seagate) and 8 good sac-spells (therapy plus neoform) the deck consistently has one of each. T1 cabal therapy t2 Seagate double therapy can be devestating. Seagate also has a built in mana sink which seems useful in nic fit.

Unlike cabal therapy, you can’t neoform first and get explorer later. Gsz + neoform is t3 at the earliest. So that’s why I built around ouat instead of gsz. If you want gsz, ouat and brainstorm I think that’s a lot of durdle cards which don’t play nicely together. You can’t ouat into bs or gsz like ponder into bs. Green sun has anti-synergy with natural snaps, whereas natural snaps like the cards Seagate wants (trophy/brainstorm/ouat) and helps your blue count.

I do have half of those targets. Not sure you can go full maverick and still support neoform/therapy/brainstorm/fow. Seagate plus trophy is my catch all to replace the less commonly used targets like q.beast

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yea this is a smart post

I want to fit one Spellseeker because it lets you turn Neoform into a removal spell by getting Trophy, plus its still pretty solid if you topdeck it because it can find Neoform to turn itself into Meren (which then gets back the Spellseeker etc).
Can be an option to widen the toolbox of SB cards too (like you can get Surgical Extraction or whatever with it)

But yeah idk what the cut would be and the pool of other 3drops it's competing with is obviously extremely wide (like Hullbreacher or Oppo Agent or whatever)

I don’t know ftzz, the player in the vod. It looks like they were running my first build posted with the infinite life combo.

I could possibly cut a trophy for a spell seeker.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

I don’t know ftzz, the player in the vod. It looks like they were running my first build posted with the infinite life combo.

I could possibly cut a trophy for a spell seeker.

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The infinite life combo was very cool as well, especially if you’re already maindecking 4 Neoform and 4 Sea Gate

You have so many cool brews and clearly play mtgo a lot. You should consider filming some of your leagues with your unique brews and uploading them to youtube and sharing them on reddit. I think it would get a lot of views.

Sea Gate is very powerful to pair with Therapy. But it would even more powerful and consistent in a build that's plays Hymn/Thoughtseize alongside Therapy.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Ok experimented with dropping the infinite combo. Replaced it with hatebears and a value combo of Liliana plus uro. uro immediately flips her, making a zombie and either pulsing, getting back a vet or cashing her in for an uro trigger. The thought is that or uro plus hatebear should beat most things but each card is strong individually, per kombatkiwi’s advice.

2 Field of the Dead
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 underground sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Once upon a time
4 Brainstorm
4 Seagate Stormcaller
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
3 Assassins Trophy
4 Neoform
2 Uro, Titan of nature’s wrath
1 Liliana, heretic healer
1 Leovold, emissary of treat
1 Plague Engineer
1 Meren of clan Nel north
4 Force of will

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You mentioned the Opposition Agent and Merelan of the Mornsong combo, and I agree with you that Mornsong is bad without Opposition Agent, but Opposition Agent is a fantastic card if paired with Dark Ritual. Ritual into Opp in response to a fetch or crop rotation or entomb on turn one has won me gamesin Deadguy Ale, especially against combo decks.

Ritual could take the slots Field of the Dead is taking, as the decks that give Nic Fit the hardest time are the fast aggressive comboesque decks that Ritual into either Hymn or Opposition agent would help with. Nic Fit already shines in the kind of slow grindy matchups where Field shines.

I wonder if it might make sense to rethink Nic Fit a bit, and try a build that accommodates and supports both Dark Ritual and Veteran Explorer as explosive early plays and also accommodates the Mornsong + Opp Agent as a midgame hardlock for inevitability.

Basically take the above list you posted and cut..

-2 Field of the Dead or some other Lands
-3 OuaT
-1 Neoform
-1 Uro
-1 Ass Trophy
-4 FoW

to add
+3 Dark Ritual
+1 Green Suns Zenith
+3 Opposition Agent
+1 Merelan of the Mornsong
+4 Hymn and/or Thoughtseize to clear the way for the combo, abuse Dark Ritual and to pair with both Cabal Therapy and Sea Gate. A turn two Dark Ritual > Sea Gate > Hymn to make your opponent randomly discard 4 cards is insanely powerful.

It's also possible that the optimal build plays GSZ to better abuse Dark Ritual mana to GSZ out Leovold or Meren on turn 2 or a turn 3 Primeval Titan, or perhaps Ritual would suit an 8 Rector build, but the natural synergy between Ritual, Opposition Agent and Sea Gate makes me want to try this version. There is still much to be explored with Nic Fit.

Between all the black cards, stuff like GSZ or Snapcaster and the occasionally kickable Sea Gate, the hope is that you will have always have lots of ways to utilize the rituals. And Rituals also work great with postboard Leyline, Lost Legacy, Plague Engineer to shut down aggressive or combo decks before they can go off. Or the Rituals could be sided out for carpet of flowers against controlling grindy blue decks.

Something along those lines also gives the deck more explosive/Disruptive early plays similar to Sui Black style decks. It would definitely improve our combo match-up.

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-2 Field of the Dead or some other Lands
-3 OuaT
-1 Neoform
-1 Uro
-1 Ass Trophy
-4 FoW

to add
+3 Dark Ritual
+1 Green Suns Zenith
+3 Opposition Agent
+1 Merelan of the Mornsong
+4 Hymn and/or Thoughtseize

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This advice feels like 'put rituals in your jund deck to cast your lilianas faster', like ritual doesn't have much to do in this deck outside of the only 3x Opposition Agent that you are adding which is just a much worse card after turn 1 (maybe maindeck Oppo Agent is more justified iin a deck with Ancient Tomb / Chrome Mox etc in addition to rituals), you are cutting ouat/neoform which weakens the whole explorer/seagate/therapy/neoform setup, cutting good cards like uro/trophy for situational cards like Maralen, and then does playing Hymn or Thoughtseize instead of FoW really help the combo matchup that much anyway

edit:
the 'cut fotd you are a nicfit deck that wins the lategame anyway' is a reasonable heuristic but if e.g. your uros get surgicaled then things might get a bit sketchy, this list isn't really playing those kind of fatty boom boom cards (Titania or big pw etc) and I think fotd is maybe a better choice than those

Its not just Hymn/Thoughseize, a fast Opposition Agent is excellent against combo decks, and Ritual gets it out turn 1, or vet explorer or zenithing a dryad arbor turn 1 lets you cast Agent on turn 2. Using ritual and zenith to land a turn 2 Leovold is also helpful against some combo decks. And the ideal play of using Ritual and Sea Gate to duplicate a Hymn or Thoughtseize on turn 2 (or Ritual, Thoughtseize, Snapcaster, Thoughtseize) is devastating to most combo decks.

I'm very impressed by the Nic Fit list that Top 8ed the legacy challenge...

3 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Academy Rector
3 Arena Rector
3 Opposition Agent
1 Plague Engineer
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Thoughtseize
4 Assassin's Trophy
4 Crop Rotation
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vanishing Verse
4 Abundant Growth
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Dovescape
1 Omniscience
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bayou
1 Blast Zone
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Field of the Dead
2 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Academy Rector
1 Arena Rector
1 Plague Engineer
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

thrabenU played my neofit idea : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R44fEpepXb8

Nicfit SmogClaw

Ideas:
1) Therapy + Sedgemoor Witch is a combo like Therapy + YP and you are already playing therapy with veteran explorer
2) Ersatz Mindrot (smog) in a GB midrange deck doesn't seem awful
3) You have GSZ in the deck already, to search for the witherbloom apprentice
4) You can play wishclaw talisman to search for both halves of the combo
5) Wishclaw can search for Brooding Saurian in a deck with ramp to make the claw a decent card "by itself"

Not really sure about the numbers

20 lands + arbor
4 GSZ
4 Explorer
4 Therapy
4 Smog
4 Thoughtseize
4 Apprentice
4 Witch
3 Wishclaw
1 Brooding Saurian
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Meren
1 Plague Engineer
1 Hexdrinker

something like that? Totally possible all the combo pieces don't need to be 4s (definitely want some assassins trophy or something like that in there)

Of course it's probably nonsense but it seems like it could have potential maybe

I don't think you want Brooding Saurian or Wishclaw Talisman, they are just too fragile. Dark Petition comes to mind, especially if you are looking to add more non-creature disruption to the deck (Trophy, maybe Decay and Thoughtseize.) Nic Fit is one of the few non-Storm decks that can hit 5 mana really fast so I think it's a possibility, especially if you can enable spell mastery and cast your Chain of Smog right away. I also think Abundant Harvest would be very good in here.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, Diabolic Intent is the play here.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I don't think you want Brooding Saurian or Wishclaw Talisman, they are just too fragile. Dark Petition comes to mind, especially if you are looking to add more non-creature disruption to the deck (Trophy, maybe Decay and Thoughtseize.) Nic Fit is one of the few non-Storm decks that can hit 5 mana really fast so I think it's a possibility, especially if you can enable spell mastery and cast your Chain of Smog right away. I also think Abundant Harvest would be very good in here.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, Diabolic Intent is the play here.

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I think abundant harvest is a better option for xeroxy decks with low landcounts that highly value the option to guaranteed hit their 2nd land drop, but it could be okay here (e.g. instead of some land) just to help enable the magecraft triggers more consistently.

Diabolic Intent is okay (and could possibly be an upgrade) but I don't think the wishclaw idea is super fragile either. You have a lot of discard to clear the way and being able to get a free 4/4 plus 2 other tutors out of it is a big deal for a kind of midrangey deck thats aiming to trade resources a lot.

I don't like Dark Petition I think the deck might have issues with spell mastery and having to front 5 mana to start seems kind of awkward

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I think abundant harvest is a better option for xeroxy decks with low landcounts that highly value the option to guaranteed hit their 2nd land drop, but it could be okay here (e.g. instead of some land) just to help enable the magecraft triggers more consistently.

Diabolic Intent is okay (and could possibly be an upgrade) but I don't think the wishclaw idea is super fragile either. You have a lot of discard to clear the way and being able to get a free 4/4 plus 2 other tutors out of it is a big deal for a kind of midrangey deck thats aiming to trade resources a lot.

I don't like Dark Petition I think the deck might have issues with spell mastery and having to front 5 mana to start seems kind of awkward

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I don't see how that 4/4 is free...I mean, you still have to pay 4 mana for a vanilla 4/4. If you're looking to set up that play you need 7 mana over 2 turns, which doesn't seem great to me.

Abundant Harvest was a suggestion to get spell count higher to enable Spell Mastery to go along with Dark Petition; the easiest way to get mastery is to lean into the xerox-y approach. Five mana at the start isn't a big deal at all, especially if you're playing Phyrexian Tower. Five mana by turn 3 should be doable for Nic Fit. It makes you softer to Daze, but that's not something you can really play around other than by adding more acceleration or waiting a turn.

I think Crop Rotation is probably a great addition to this setup, not only for Phyrexian Tower but also for silver bullet lands to handle combo matchups (Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Wasteland/Ghost Quarter) but also as a way to protect your own combo (Sejiri Steppe.) Crop Rotation could also get you Cavern of Souls, which makes half your combo uncounterable.

The big question is this: are you trying to incorporate Witherbloom/Smog into Nic Fit or are you trying to just take advantage of Nic Fit's mana acceleration to make a new deck? Saurian/Wishclaw is adding yet another combo to a deck that already struggles with consistency. I figure if you're trying for a new deck (Saurian/Wishclaw + Witherbloom/Smog) then something like Abundant Harvest seems very, very good. Xerox-y is kind a what you want in a combo deck, right?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I don't see how that 4/4 is free...I mean, you still have to pay 4 mana for a vanilla 4/4. If you're looking to set up that play you need 7 mana over 2 turns, which doesn't seem great to me.

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You have therapy in the deck + hardcast smog as mindrot, it seems very easy to play a game where the opp is hellbent or at least you know they don't have interaction.

Wishclaw seems good as a tutor for the A+B combo (3 mana is cheap, split over multiple turns, it only costs 1 when you need it to go off, no need to sac anything, can sit in play safely while your opponent possibly rebound smog back at you), but what do you do with it in situations where you have neither half of the combo available? Something like tutor a powerful PW then give wishclaw to the opp? Seems risky? For the relatively low cost of putting 1x 2GG 4/4 in the deck you have the option of keeping the Claw and then from 1 claw you get a 4/4 and 2 more tutors to use on whatever you want (whether that's both pieces of the smog combo or disruption like an Assassin's Trophy etc)

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I think Crop Rotation is probably a great addition to this setup, not only for Phyrexian Tower but also for silver bullet lands to handle combo matchups (Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Wasteland/Ghost Quarter) but also as a way to protect your own combo (Sejiri Steppe.) Crop Rotation could also get you Cavern of Souls, which makes half your combo uncounterable.

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I don't think the deck wants to be so all-in on the combo that it justifies the card disadvantage of crop rotation

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The big question is this: are you trying to incorporate Witherbloom/Smog into Nic Fit or are you trying to just take advantage of Nic Fit's mana acceleration to make a new deck?

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Idk the distinction but probably the latter? Basically my idea is that the base engine of:
- Therapy
- Explorer
- GSZ
Goes well with the package of:
- Sedgemoor Witch
- Witherbloom Apprentice
- Chain of Smog

Then wishclaw talisman feels like the best tutor (+gsz) and build the deck ground up from there, I'm not really starting with any preconceptions of what a "nic fit" deck looks like

Interesting points. All I meant about Brooding Saurian is that I think the wording around it being 'free' was a little misleading. You still have to pay at least 4 mana, 5 is more likely due to silver bullet status, and it makes lines of play easy to disrupt. Diabolic Intent is 1) 1 mana cheaper than Talisman, 2) doesn't require the risk of giving opponent's a tutor, 3) doesn't require you to put a 5-mana 4/4 into your deck to make the synergy work, 4) Intent actively supports your primary game plan of sacrificing Veteran Explorer to ramp mana while giving you something to do with that mana. I understand that Wishclaw can grab Brooding Saurian and solve some of those issues, it just looks really underpowered for Legacy. You're adding another combo to a combo deck, hoping you keep the Talisman/Saurian for another turn to do your thing. Even if you accomplish that you still need to assemble Smog + Apprentice. I don't discount the idea, I'm just not sold on it yet. I don't think Legacy can handle such inefficient combos (mana + time-wise.)

Crop Rotation for silver-bullet lands to fight combo matchups can be seen as card disadvantage if you want, but Karakas and Bojuka Bog both carry a lot of weight in the matchups where you want them. The incidental ability to have access to Phyrexian Tower more consistently for explosive early turns is really the secondary purpose. Crop Rotation isn't for fair matchups and can easily be sideboarded out for relevant cards. Nic Fit is a dog to combo decks, always has been, and adding a combo that is potentially slower than others doesn't solve your problem. I still think Abundant Harvest is a good option for a dig spell if your plan is to go so deep into the combo. It's cheap at only one mana and guarantees you what you want, either a land to develop or a spell to push your game plan forward. Mid-late game it will be pure gas.