Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The_Dingo
All of this is true, and if you play in a combo heavy meta, enchantress is probably not the right deck to be playing. That being said, if 1 particular brand of combo is all over the meta, you can do something about that. You can play more maindeck Karakas if you anticipate reanimator and sneak and show being the combo du jour. For elves, doomwake and engineered plagues like you said. Luckily for me, not too many storm players at my LGS, so I only have to lose to it occasionally. If there were more I would start playing DnT or something.
I managed to steal a match from Omnitell over the weekend via Silence. Not sure if it's worth playing, but it exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I'm not sure if there's enough hate to make Storm tractable (at least in GW, GWb, and GWr), but Blind Obedience, Doomwake Giant, and Engineered Plague are generally enough to keep Elves under control, especially with Swords out of the board for the early game and even with Sage. If you're only seeing one type of (non-Storm) combo, you can make your matchups tolerable for an LGS or MODO Daily meta. If you're looking to go to an open or something, then your best bet is to just give up on combo matchups and drive your non-combo %s through the roof.
Is it possible to board in Thalia, Guardian of Thraben? She hits us pretty hard but we are more than capable of going over the top, and unlike Leyline of Sanctity she applies pressure and while preventing them from comboing off to begin with. Aegis of the Gods almost does that, except it actually doesn't.
I'm starting to think that Leyline is terrible. It's only redeeming quality is not dieing to Abrupt Decay, and even then they can just Ad Nauseam for infinty and kill you. I guess it's pertty good against Burn, but eh.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
Is it possible to board in
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben? She hits us pretty hard but we are more than capable of going over the top, and unlike
Leyline of Sanctity she applies pressure and while preventing them from comboing off to begin with.
Aegis of the Gods almost does that, except it actually doesn't.
I'm starting to think that Leyline is terrible. It's only redeeming quality is not dieing to
Abrupt Decay, and even then they can just
Ad Nauseam for infinty and kill you. I guess it's pertty good against Burn, but eh.
I'm not sold on cutting Leyline, even if it isn't as good as it was pre-Khans. I wouldn't call cutting it wrong, though. As for Thalia, I mostly like to limit hatebears to Teeg because he's GSZ-able and he has to be removed for most combo to win. If they ever print a Thalia-like ability on an Enchantment, I'd be all over it.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I'm not sold on cutting Leyline, even if it isn't as good as it was pre-Khans. I wouldn't call cutting it wrong, though. As for Thalia, I mostly like to limit hatebears to Teeg because he's GSZ-able and he has to be removed for most combo to win. If they ever print a Thalia-like ability on an Enchantment, I'd be all over it.
That's the dream. But even if I did cut it, 7+ hate slots for one deck is a little heavy, even if it is Storm. Leyline just feels like it doesn't do anything most games. We lack a real way to capitalize on it besides buying 2-3 turns.
Screw it. I'll throw her in and see what happens.
Anyway, I tried posting about how bad I did but my computer stopped cooperating. I'll keep this brief so as to not derail too much.
Main
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx Threw it in on a whim. Solid on all counts.
1 Karakas
1 Taiga
2 Plains
3 Serra's Sanctum Had a few odd draws with these.
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Reclamation Sage Surprisingly relevant in the main.
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Green Sun's Zenith Still feel like this is the way to go. I might just be stuck in the past.
2 Kruphix's Insight And here we have the spice. Strong card, but we need to make a few concessions for it.
3 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Rest in Peace
1 Words of War First concession: an enchantment as a stand-alone win condition.
1 Banishing Light
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Enchantress's Presence 15 pieces of card advantage may have been a bit heavy in retrospect.
1 Helm of Obedience Second concession: 3 win conditions. Lower chance of killing myself, but one more dead card.
Side
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre I was nervous about Reanimator. It's common enough to expect, but 2 sideboard slots may be too much. Especially since they bring in Show and Tell.
1 Silence The wild card.
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stony Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Helm of Obedience The idea was to increase threat density in matches where we need to kill fast. In reality this was pointless.
So the deck was tuned at the last minute with two ideas in mind:
1) We need to beat Death and Taxes.
2) I really want to play Kruphix's Insight
Good news: the second point fits right into the first by letting us cheat death. And by death, I mean Spirit of the Labyrinth. Words of War is a game ending threat that can kill her dead as well, even if Mother of Runes makes us wait a turn. And Reclamation Sage can crack it or an equipment in two. No Suppression Field is a drawback, but I wanted to see how it played without.
As it turns out, Words of War was only relevant in one game (incidentally, it WAS against Death and Taxes). We did win that match so mission accomplished I guess. Faerie Macabre is cute and does not need to be a 2-of. It only comes in against one deck and even then they play around it. The second helm didn’t mean squat. Miracles is a much harder matchup without Suppression Field or Choke. Oops.
I realized this morning that I may be looking at the deck wrong. Before I was categorizing the cards in it as draw (Enchantresses), protection (confinement and friends), ramp and wincons. The thought crossed my mind that our lock pieces are just as much threats as our combo pieces, so they really belong in the same group. Elephant Grass isn't a piece of protection, it's an attack that cripples their game plan. Cutting Suppression Field meant I was actually lowering the lethality of the deck.
...I'm not sure if this train is going anywhere, but I thought it would be good to share. Or I'm just slow/talking out of my ass.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
We have a very small but slowly growing Legacy here, it started from almost none to actually a pretty playable one. We usually play on Wednesdays but we can only squeeze so any games in as the comic store closes early. I play a fairly stock GW Non-helm build, with a few tweaks to it. I suppose it won't hurt posting my little games with the deck, who knows others may find it enjoyable to read.
Game 1: vs Death and Taxes
[R1] I managed to land a confinement backed by 2 argothians, the problem however is he had Aether Vial and double rishadan port, preventing me from actually casting anything to allow me to maintain the confinement, I lost this one. 0-1.
[R2] I went first, and managed to assemble my protection pieces quickly. Although the game dragged on a bit, I built up a few angel tokens, and hammered as fast as I can before he can find a way to break free. 1-1.
[R3] He went first, I kept a pretty shaky hand but it contained a lot of acceleration, and 1 argothian despite my 1 land. I Played Forest > Utopia Sprawl and then passed the turn, he then played ghost quarter killing my land, losing that enchantment hurt, as it actually slowed me down, he managed to get thalia out and rishadan port starting locking me out of mana again. I lost the game. 1-2
Game 2: vs Affinity
[R1] He scooped early when he had tezzeret out and aiming to go for the finishing blow by turn 3. However, I went ahead ahead and dropped a confinement depiste only having 1 enchantress out, luckily I came across another one and from there I was able to sustain confinement and he scooped. 1-0.
[R2] I dropped a turn 2 Stony Silence and he scooped afterwards. Pretty fast game. 2-0.
Game 3: vs Metalworker
[R1] He had a really explosive start, but my oblivion rings took care of the threats he started dropping. I don't recall much of what happened but this game was really long. 1-0.
[R2] Drawing a Stony Silence and Landing it on turn 2, hurt him a lot. It took me a while to find my win-con to the point that he managed to cast emrakul with his lands. I sacrificed my angel tokems and a few enchantments to withstand the trigger and minimize my losses, but that set me back from casting my own Emrakul. I just end of turn sacrificed my sterling grove and grabbed an oblivion ring to take care of it. I won later on through my new army of angel tokens, finished just in time since the comic store was closing soon. 2-0.
2-1
I really don't like Rishadan Ports, I'm tempted to take out my O-Rings and replace them with Songs of the Dryads. :( I noticed too, I tend to have issues against Death and Taxes and Infect decks. Anyone have any advise for those?
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claymore1
W
I really don't like Rishadan Ports, I'm tempted to take out my O-Rings and replace them with Songs of the Dryads. :( I noticed too, I tend to have issues against Death and Taxes and Infect decks. Anyone have any advise for those?
I tend to not have issues with D&T, but that's largely because I (usually) splash black and run 1-2 SB Dread of Night. If Port has got you down, Sheltering Prayers takes care of it.
EDIT: Watersaw - I don't like the red splash as much as I did pre-Khans because while WoWar is great against the field right now, Engineered Plague is even better, and Words can't kill Spirit unless you use it on your draw step, and Mom+Spirit forces you into "find Emrakul or die" mode. I guess we have things like Seal of Cleansing, but then that takes a tutor and an additional turn to set up. I'd rather just Dread of Night or E. Plague the problem away. The other reasons I favor black over red right now (and over GW) are the fact that Blood Moon isn't as good as it used to be, and the discard effects, especially Brain Maggot, are great.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Thanks for the tip about sheltering prayers, I didn't even know the card existed. I'll have to hunt one down and squeeze one in the sideboard. :laugh:
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claymore1
I really don't like Rishadan Ports, I'm tempted to take out my O-Rings and replace them with Songs of the Dryads. :( I noticed too, I tend to have issues against Death and Taxes and Infect decks. Anyone have any advise for those?
Sounds like you really want Suppression Field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wordslinger
I feel like anyone talking about the combo matchup like your sideboard can make it any better than this side of hopeless is being disengenous at best and at worst, never plays against combo. I don't just mean storm; I mean everything that isn't the mirror. Consider:
Omnitell: they have more cantrips than any deck in the format and they get at least four turns, probably five. there's no way they don't have double cunning wish, or wish plus dig or wish for foresight or something. wish into trickbind screws your o-ring.
Sneak and show: It's not that you don't have plans, they're just all awkward and suscepible to the jund problem. Also game ones make mulls weird. Turn one growth, turn two enchantress? Nice confinement you have there.
Elves: This was fine before rec sage. Now its terrible. btw, our mana denial is bad and their Glimpse is cheaper and more efficient than our enchntresses.
Ant: This deck is pretty much always going to kill you through leyline/grove. bounce your grove? past in flames? bounce your leyline? don't get me started on
versions with burning wish. which bring me to..
Tes: now that they have a one mana bounce spell, this is even worse for us than ant. remember we kill on turn 4 or 5 at the soonest. If they combo on turn three we wont have time to deploy two locks. also the jund problem is worse against this and ant.
Belcher: Basically an autoloss. None of your relevant cards are castable at the timeframe neccessary. Elepant grass usually still won't give you a match.
High tide:(spiral) :This deck is just slow enough than you might not get wrecked.
High tide:(reset) : This deck is so slow you'll definitely get wrecked.
Dredge: All right you got me. I'm not going to sit here and pretend you have a bad dredge mactchup.
Reanimator: this ones alright but..
Tinfins: this one isn't! most of the reason why sneak and reanimator aren't unwinnable is because they have to assemble their combo AND attack you, so you can mess them up with taxing. this deck Is a full turn faster and just kills you on its combo turn.
In all of these cases, your normal ideal start of growth into enchantress is anywhere from uncomfortable to horrible. so you'll lose a higher percentage of game ones against unknown opponents on combo.
This is absurd! We lose most of our games to the entire combo archetype! I think that if you plan to take this to anything you want to X-0, the black splash must be considered for cards like doomwake giant and duress. Otherwise a major overhaul is neccessary.
TL, DR: If your plan against combo is grove plus lock piece, stop right there and come up with a better one.
Testing proves otherwise. In the GW sideboards with Gaddock Teeg, o rings Banishing light and Stony Silence the following post board games go to 50/50 or better:
Belcher
Ant
Tes
Sneak and Show
Omnitell
Hightide - time Spiral Build
The following remain bad after boards:
Elves
High Tide - Reset
Now I we recognized this issue and a few pages back posted a list that plays Eidolon of Rhetoric. this greatly affects the decks that need to cast multiple spells a turn, or decks that use cantrips to find cards. This sideboard does not have nearly the same amount of testing behind it but in preliminary testing this approach actually swings most combo match-ups positive post boards.
I have tried the Gxb lists with discard, and those don't improve combo all that much honestly. Enchantress drawing into a discard spell is not the best because it does not trigger draws, and the disruption the discard provides is not enough to prolong the game to where Enchantress can kill (unless its like a Pros Bloom version.)
Your right. We're not excited to be matched with combo, but the MU is not a bye for the combo player either, and with further testing of the Eidolon strat. it may honestly not be all that bad.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
Sounds like you really want
Suppression Field.
Testing proves otherwise. In the GW sideboards with Gaddock Teeg, o rings Banishing light and Stony Silence the following post board games go to 50/50 or better:
Belcher
Ant
Tes
Sneak and Show
Omnitell
Hightide - time Spiral Build
The following remain bad after boards:
Elves
High Tide - Reset
Now I we recognized this issue and a few pages back posted a list that plays
Eidolon of Rhetoric. this greatly affects the decks that need to cast multiple spells a turn, or decks that use cantrips to find cards. This sideboard does not have nearly the same amount of testing behind it but in preliminary testing this approach actually swings most combo match-ups positive post boards.
I have tried the Gxb lists with discard, and those don't improve combo all that much honestly. Enchantress drawing into a discard spell is not the best because it does not trigger draws, and the disruption the discard provides is not enough to prolong the game to where Enchantress can kill (unless its like a Pros Bloom version.)
Your right. We're not excited to be matched with combo, but the MU is not a bye for the combo player either, and with further testing of the Eidolon strat. it may honestly not be all that bad.
I'll try that a bit. Right now I'm testing some number of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Brain Maggot in place of Leyline of Sanctity and some other stuff. So far they've proved to be a beating in conjunction with Gaddock Teeg and Dryad Arbor Will report back.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
I'm interested in this plan. How do you go about boarding? What comes out/goes in exactly?
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
I'm usually terrified of a fast Thalia or a Gaddock Teeg against me when I'm playing Enchantress, Eidolon of Rhetoric sounds like one of the best sideboard cards against enchantress.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
I'm usually terrified of a fast Thalia or a Gaddock Teeg against me when I'm playing Enchantress, Eidolon of Rhetoric sounds like one of the best sideboard cards against enchantress.
There is not question it is an avant garde approach, but there is thought be hind the theory. Most combo decks need to do 1 of 2 things get A + B or chain a bunch of spells.
If Enchantress is ca combo deck which I believe it is traditional GW with Replenish is the chain a bunch a spells variety [Sigil and Words] whereas the GW Helm is the A + B Variety. Helm & Emrakul.
Since GW helm only needs to put A to B it would be advantageous to limit the number of spells that needs to be cast. In addition for combo decks to find their answers they need to cast spells. Whereas GW Helms card selection comes from Shuffle effects and Mirri's Guile. Therefore, due to this relativity GW enchantress is actually favored under Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric, and testing has proven that to be true. (2) Effects is usually game since most combo players prefer Chain of Vapor to Echoing Truth.
In the event your combo opponent happens to have the bounce and the kill in hand then there really isn't much enchantress could do to get out of that. I have tested Curse of Exhaustion however the cards is too slow or too unreliable to be effective. Is this ultimately the best path of GW Enchantress to take? Who knows until you test it extensively. I feel the theory is sound enough to try.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The_Dingo
I'm interested in this plan. How do you go about boarding? What comes out/goes in exactly?
Currently at 1 Gaddock, 3 Thalia, 3 Maggot, 2 Stony, and one actual Silence.
Been taking out Suppression Field, Reclamation Sage, Banishing Light, RIP and Helm, and Solitary Confinement. Should probably start taking out Elephant Grass instead.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
I'm usually terrified of a fast Thalia or a Gaddock Teeg against me when I'm playing Enchantress, Eidolon of Rhetoric sounds like one of the best sideboard cards against enchantress.
It is. My testing with Eidolon of Rhetoric quickly relegated it to the garbage pile. If you want to beat Storm for a local, run 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Stony Silence, and 3-4 Brain Maggot between main and side. If you're going to something larger, then just run Leyline of Sanctity (at least it has utility against Burn and UR) and/or abandon the matchup unless you're splashing blue for In the Eye of Chaos. Even then it's not like you're favored.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
I'm usually terrified of a fast Thalia or a Gaddock Teeg against me when I'm playing Enchantress, Eidolon of Rhetoric sounds like one of the best sideboard cards against enchantress.
The difference lies in which decks play Thalia, Eidolon or Teeg against you. Nobody denies that those cards slow us down a lot, the question is whether they slow down the opponent more. A deck like Maverick, DnT or Junk is hardly affected at all which means that they still win turn 5-6, whereas we might not be able to win/set up a lock until turn 7-10 (say) depending on the type of hate. On the other hand, agaist storm we might not be able to win until turn 7-10 but they are not able to win at all while the hate-card is in play.
TL;DR What matters isn't whether you get hit hard by a symmetric effect, but whether it hits the opponent harder than it hits you.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Say goodbye to treasure cruise format. It was fun being so well positioned in that format. I just hope we don't end up back in a format dominated by BUG delver.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The_Dingo
Say goodbye to treasure cruise format. It was fun being so well positioned in that format. I just hope we don't end up back in a format dominated by BUG delver.
Damn shame no one put up any real results. This deck needs more representation.
ANYWAY. Where does this leave us now? Solitary Confinement and Rest in Peace both get a bit worse, right? I can't see myself running 3 of each in the main anymore, probably will be shipping them to the side. At the same time Storm's performance should normalize a bit so I doubt I need 10 god damn slots for them, even though most of them are relevant in other matchups.
BGx gets better. bummer. Time to rev up those Suppression Fields.
EDIT: also this
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Concordant
The difference lies in which decks play Thalia, Eidolon or Teeg against you. Nobody denies that those cards slow us down a lot, the question is whether they slow down the opponent more. A deck like Maverick, DnT or Junk is hardly affected at all which means that they still win turn 5-6, whereas we might not be able to win/set up a lock until turn 7-10 (say) depending on the type of hate. On the other hand, agaist storm we might not be able to win until turn 7-10 but they are not able to win at all while the hate-card is in play.
TL;DR What matters isn't whether you get hit hard by a symmetric effect, but whether it hits the opponent harder than it hits you.
Thalia and Gaddock do throw a wrench in our plan, but the matches we want them they're even worse for our opponent. And we are more than capable of playing through them.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Stumbled on to this card the other day. Rise of the Hobgoblins And I thought it was somewhat interesting. The ability to make a lot of creatures seem interesting in some match ups. Either as blockers, a swarm finisher or Liliana of the Veil bait. Anyone have any experience with it? Or have any other enchantments that generate reliable creatures? (other then the ones that have been discussed to death, yes, I am looking at you Sigil of the Empty Throne )
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rakadis
Stumbled on to this card the other day.
Rise of the Hobgoblins And I thought it was somewhat interesting. The ability to make a lot of creatures seem interesting in some match ups. Either as blockers, a swarm finisher or
Liliana of the Veil bait. Anyone have any experience with it? Or have any other enchantments that generate reliable creatures? (other then the ones that have been discussed to death, yes, I am looking at you
Sigil of the Empty Throne )
it may be worth noting that rise of the hobgoblins trigger on enter the battlefield which works well with replenish
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apple713
it may be worth noting that rise of the hobgoblins trigger on enter the battlefield which works well with replenish
Could be cool with some sort of Flicker effect or a charged Cleansing Meditation. The latter would allow full reloads with Eidolon of Blossoms and Threshold might actually be achievable if you run Kruphix's Insight and Gitaxian Probe. Would have to cut Rest in Peace because we Delve now.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
I played in a local 5 round event today and I wanted to share one really terrible thing that I did and one really sweet thing that happened today. In R4 against patriot blade I had locked the game out at exactly 3 life. I was churning through my deck with 5 enchantresses out to find emrakul. So I have exactly five cards left in my deck and I think "sweet, cast one more enchantment, cast emrakul, take home the W" Well after I cast wild growth my opponent pointed out to me that I had a 6th enchantress on the board, and that I had just decked myself. Man was I embarrassed.
The high point of the day was my round 5 match against mono red sneak attack. G1 he cast through the breach on T2 putting in worldspine worm, and the game ended shortly thereafter. Game 2 I mulligan down to 4 passing up some keepable hands for some hate. Finally I keep GSZ, suppression field, sanctum, wild growth. On the play I put down a sanctum and pass. I'm hoping and praying and wishing... and on my draw step I rip a savannah off the top that lets me cast suppression field on T2. He passes the turn after casting gamble, and I get to zenith for teeg, because I'm pretty sure he only has sneak attack and through the breach to get his fatties into play. Long game short, I attack him down to dead with Teeg and dryad arbor in a super uneventful game except for the part where he hardcasts zodiac dragon, which I have a swords to plowshares for. In Game 3 I keep a 6 card with no enchantress effects that basically just makes mana. But it has a helm of obedience in it. So I ramp up, cast helm and activate it for 6 and the first card off the top of the deck is a world spine worm, which I use to kill him. It was pretty awesome.
