I don't think there are any playable flanking cards in this deck. If I'm going to get cute, I would just like a Pontiff to deal with TNN AND Elves (along with other stuff) with one slot.
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I don't think there are any playable flanking cards in this deck. If I'm going to get cute, I would just like a Pontiff to deal with TNN AND Elves (along with other stuff) with one slot.
The trade-off was between running decay to improve the miracles match-up or run ponder to improve consistency. This list was before the ban so it attempted the former. Now the deck does not need maindeck decay as much anymore, its consistency will improve again.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
This sort of deck isn't really comparable to esperblade. It's more comparable to grixis or patriot delver, with very efficient threats but here compounded by a stoneforge package rather than burn and disruption. Such a combination is very difficult for D&T to beat. It'd be interesting to test how magus really performs in this match-up. A combo of magus and pontiff would be back-breaking, but is not that straightforward to pull off mana-wise. Keep in mind that this sort of deck also runs 4 wastelands and has quite a bunch of maindeck answers to vial (even if it drops decay).
Not by magus or wasteland, but thalia and port do a lot of work in this match-up. Stoneblade has no acceleration and cannot rely on its typical gameplan as much as it wants to: dropping a single threat like an equipped stoneforge or jace and protecting it, because we have so much answers to put in the way. The deck is also more susceptible to our late game hate cards like cataclysm and gideon.Quote:
I'm way more concerned about facing a UW Stoneblade deck, since it's going to do the same thing more consistently and doesn't give you much room to manascrew it.
If the meta starts to warp towards these sort of blade decks (the control esper lists and the aggro bant/bug/4c lists), manriki is going to be key. It also makes me lean towards black splash more than red splash. In my experience, splashing both will lead to not being able to cast the necessary bullets when you need them. Unless you make your manabase too greedy, which also does not seem too advisable as I expect a surge of blood moon and back to basics effects (in response to the rise of delver and aggro true-name lists).
Why would this sort of deck have no game vs combo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Decks w/ a slow clock that just hope their FoWs are gonna save them are all pretty bad against combo, since the combo deck has time to set up past FoW / Cabal Therapy you.
I also find it odd that he says "you won't face this if you dodge it round 1 so you're in the winning brackets"; and cites a list that just top8'd? It's such a self-contradicting point it seems satirical. He also cites Reid Duke playing it, and I mean, I know he screws around a bit.. but he's also someone who knows what he's doing. He's topped with Pox of all things (although it was when it was in a reasonable meta for it)
but that's kinda my point. He's a good player who plays a variety of stuff, often targeted at the meta from an angle. I'd think it odd that one of the Mtg-Celebs would be cited as a great example of why a deck sucks; *right next* to the deck top 8ing in a quoted passage.
I said it wouldn't STAY in the upper tables. Things are changing all the time, but I'm pretty sure Stoneblade isn't where it's settling.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I beat the hooey out of lands tonight. He wasn't the best lands player, but it was fine since I've rarely played the matchup, it was the GQ version, it seems better. Moon makes it grossly winnable, albeit a little swingy. I won even after stp on a 20/20.
@ Mad Mat
That is the list I registered for Frankfurt:
/NAME:
3 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Plateau
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mother of Runes
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
In my experience it is quite good against all the True-Name-Nemesis decks, because the usually can´t handle Mirran Crusader very well. After the sideboarding it is really in our favour with two Orzhov Pontiffs. The mana base is of course very greedy but works quite good for me, with all the Delver Decks around i really like the 3 Cavern of souls.
Unfortunately in Frankfurt the result was not so good: Win against Grixis Controll and Goblins, Loss against Burn x 2 and Turbo Depth. I decided the day before to play Mariki-Gusari over Kor Firewalker :eek:
@Black Diamond: That is another approach to the three-color problem. On first sight, I have two 'problems' with it.
One, you don't have access to pontiff game 1, where his surprise factor is much higher (most players don't count on D&T having game 1 answers to true-name and are therefore prone to go all in on the asocial fish). Second and more importantly is that with only caverns and vial, you're not as consistently getting pontiff out against decks running wasteland, such as delver and true-name aggro. It's also not as consistent in the mirror without scrubland. With this split, you kind-of hope that most match-ups where pontiff stars are match-ups where your caverns will be spared or can be saved until needed. In my experience, this is typically not the case. With what you say about delver and cavern, I have relatively frequently been swamped with my (1-of) pontiff in hand because my black sources got wasted (or stifled). Delver is a deck which can consistently get 2 to 3 wastelands every game and which plays 4 daze, so you are often not in a position to keep your splash sources in hand. It's the same reason why I don't like Kambal that much: he should be wicked against delver in theory, but in practice he's rather unreliable to cast (very bad thing against this deck) and because of his black requirement his interaction with karakas is much less relevant.
Burn will be worse for any splash. I don't think there's a need to bring in specific burn-hate for that purpose. You could improve your sb a bit by including flex slots which are good against other decks than burn as well, such as blessed alliance or mark of asylum.
Article
I tweaked Bahra's list a little bit and am trying it out tonight. Seems interesting.
I've actually been playing a Riftmarked Knight as a 'third' Mirran Crusader for about a month, and it's surprisingly decent. If you're expecting a large amount of True Names I wouldn't hesitate to test one out. OUTSIDE of the True Name consideration its unequivocally worse than a crusader would have been, but it can do a decent impression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Key Points:
• Flanking, if a True-Name blocks it it dies (also lets it rumble better than a 2/2 should against creatures)
• Pro Black allows it to dodge Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, swing through Leovold, Deathrite & Gurmag
• Suspend ability - This was ACTUALLY relevant against Miracles (RIP) sometimes, getting an uncounterable pro white 2/2 (that also has flanking) is pretty big game. Flanking means it couldn't be ganked by clique or snapcaster. With Miracles gone I can't imagine this matters too much though.
Going in to Legacy tonight I think I'm swapping it for a Canonist, but it's definitely an avenue worth exploring.
I went 3-1 with the Bahra-style build tonight, beating Burn, Eldrazi, and Merfolk. My loss was to Burn. The sideboard might need a bit of tweaking still, but conceptually, the deck is fine. I'll be running this through a gauntlet in the next few days.
How did you like it?
I eagerly await your reworked sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
How did you feel about flickerwisp in the list? Do you feel it can be replaced by Displacer or THC as proposed in the channel the other day?
?
@IRS
I was in the chat and suggested cutting a Flickerwisp for a Resto, THC, or Mindcensor as well as suggested cutting Sudden Demise. The decklist in my article reflects those two changes. I don't want to lose access to the Flickerwisp effect, but it is *really* hard to actually cast. 2 or 3 is probably correct.
@Secretly.A.Bee
I'd say that the early game is great and the late game is great in comparison to normal taxes. Chalice and Magus threaten to effectively end the game far before traditional taxes can. Pia and Kiran, Resto, and Palace Jailer dominated games once I got to them, especially if I drew two of them together; dropping those cards on turn three felt amazing as well. That being said, some of the consistency in the mid-game is gone. There are fewer true threats like Avenger and Crusader to trade with other threats, and you can't simply StP away opposing threats.
With everyone brewing W/r/b Death & Taxes decks for the current meta, it's important to note that a mono-white Death & Taxes deck took down a 268 player Legacy tournament in Japan this past weekend.
http://mtg.bigmagic.net/article/2017...bmo09/027.html
8《平地/Plains》
4《リシャーダの港/Rishadan Port》
4《不毛の大地/Wasteland》
2《魂の洞窟/Cavern of Souls》
2《地平線の梢/Horizon Canopy》
3《カラカス/Karakas》
クリーチャー
4《ルーンの母/Mother of Runes》
4《石鍛冶の神秘家/Stoneforge Mystic》
4《スレイベンの守護者、サリア/Thalia, Guardian of Thraben》
3《ちらつき鬼火/Flickerwisp》
2《ファイレクシアの破棄者/Phyrexian Revoker》
2《護衛募集員/Recruiter of the Guard》
2《ミラディンの十字軍/Mirran Crusader》
2《聖域の僧院長/Sanctum Prelate》
1《宮殿の看守/Palace Jailer》
1《迷宮の霊魂/Spirit of the Labyrinth》
1《セラの報復者/Serra Avenger》
スペル
4《剣を鍬に/Swords to Plowshares》
4《霊気の薬瓶/AEther Vial》
1《殴打頭蓋/Batterskull》
1《火と氷の剣/Sword of Fire and Ice》
1《梅澤の十手/Umezawa's Jitte》
サイドボード
2《封じ込める僧侶/Containment Priest》
2《外科的摘出/Surgical Extraction》
2《エーテル宣誓会の法学者/Ethersworn Canonist》
2《議会の採決/Council's Judgment》
2《ゼンディカーの同盟者、ギデオン/Gideon, Ally of Zendikar》
1《流刑への道/Path to Exile》
1《解呪/Disenchant》
1《フェアリーの忌み者/Faerie Macabre》
1《安らかなる眠り/Rest in Peace》
1《万力鎖/Manriki-Gusari》
@_Medea
Here is what I am working on. Some of this was after watching Bahra's stream and his realization that Flickerwisp and Sudden Demise are both hard to cast reliably and the deck was very soft to nono-creature combo. Given the 24 lands and two maindeck 4 drops, maybe Restoration Angel is the call, since 3/4 flyer is also amazing, but I am testing Eldrazi Displacer for now because of the wider range of tricks, the CMC 3, and the ability to hit opponent's creatures, despite the somewhat nonbo with Magus of the Moon. What makes them options of course is that both are Wx, not WWx, both give a flicker effect. However, and this is why I am on a 2/2 split, neither one can be searched out with Recruiter of the Guard, a not inconsiderable issue... So until they print 3/2 2W Flash, Flying, Flicker (aka not Stonecloaker... I think this is it with this manabase.
Sideboard, I might be a bit overboard on combo hate, but I think that might be okay until the dust settles a bit more. Sanctum Prelate has fallen out of favor, but it happens to be an interesting catch-all for the worst non-creature spells you are facing (4 vs. TES/ANT is solid, 3 vs. Show and Tell to stop them from putting Omniscience into play, on 1 in the mirror especially against mono-W, on 1 vs. Grixis Delver, and so on.) I just haven't been able to let her go.
Lands (24)
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Karakas
Creatures (23)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Flickerwisp
2 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Other Spells (13)
2 Dismember
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard: (15)
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Banisher Priest
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
For everyone talking about splash builds being soft to Wasteland - this mono-W list has exactly as many basic land sources as most splash lists do if they play 5 fetches 3 Plains.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeckBird
@iatee
One thing I noticed is that there needs to be a fair number of generically solid cards in the sideboard. There are going to be some matchups where things like Chalice or Magus just don't do much; I want to have some reasonable cards to sub in. We've been trying cutting cards like Council's Judgment, and the result is that some of our flexibility is gone. I worry that going too far down the Mindbreak Trap route might put you in a position where you don't have enough to board in for many matchups.
I've faced the 3 color decks online, I feel like they're giving up a lot to be able to fight off storm. You're playing Thalia, Chalice of the Void, Prelate, Revoker, Cannonist & Pontiff/Sudden Demise. You don't need Mind Break Trap too, use those slots to help fix other match-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Jeez Bryant, at least add 'please'...
I typically save that for the moment before I go in dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I was wondering what mr. Bryant Cook was doing in the DnT-thread... Was not disappointed LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Why not try THC in the Displacer spot? She is W2, she has crazy impact if dropped on T2, she can be bounced with Karakas, she can be recruited, she does not require mana investment to be relevant and thus plays well with Magus, and ahe is flexible enough to be boarded out without affecting the deck. I do feel however that the flucker effect is pretty sweet, but it comes at a high price with Displacer and I dont know if its worth playing over THC given her many synergies, sweet stats and hateful effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
Took (approximately) Bahra's WRb list to the legacy win-a-box at my local store today and crushed everyone (storm, shardless, bug delver, eldrazi). My draws were good, and those were good matchups for the deck, but it felt really powerful.
What changes from the list did you make?Quote:
Originally Posted by hill_giant
So for what it's worth, Friday I tried iatee's red splash build at a local FNM and went 3-0. Beat Abzan, Lands, and ANT. I definitely see the appeal, but to me I just felt like I was playing a powered down less consistent DnT. I did get the free win vs lands with mom and magus but I wasn't looking for help against lands. I already loved that matchup. Overall I think I'll stick with mono white and definitely gonna stay away from Bahra's weird take on DnT. I got super lucky to beat ANT and I'll stick with my assessment that it's a bad matchup. G1 drew actual perfect and won. G2 got therapied and t3'd. G3 somehow beat triple dread of night with revoker beats, port, and batterskull... I got ridiculously lucky to win.
Played the following list in two events this weekend and went undefeated in both:
3 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Judge's Familiar
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
5 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scrubland
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Rest In Peace
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 Blessed Alliance
First went 3-0 at FNM, beating Esper Stoneblade, Affinity and 4-color True-Name aggro. Against the latter, I decided to board out all thalia's, the bad cards (judge's familiar and prelate) and shave a mom and a plow. The philosophy is to allow them to efficiently make use of their cantrips, while maxing out on answers to their difficult to answer threats. Seems like a promissing sideboarding approach.
Today, I went 4-0-2 in swiss and won top 8 in a 48 (or something like that) player event. Beat burn, bug landstill, elves and sneaky show with omni in the swiss (and then ID'ed twice). In top 8 I beat elves and omni sneak again and esperblade in the finals. Judge's Familiar had a lot of impact, winning me at least one game against burn, countering a natural order from elves, providing extra disruption and damage against sneaky show and beating esper in game 3 of the finals (countering a lingering souls for postponing execution in game 2), because it's a cheap flyer that threatens to nullify big impact spells like toxic deluge and disenchant. And that you really don't want to waste a plow or fatal push on.
War Priest of Thune was twice instrumental in beating omniscience, although a major reason to include it was food chain (which I managed to dodge, fortunately). I was surprised to beat elves twice, but I think some missplays by my opponent did a lot of help as did the unexpected blow-outs by pontiff (and once a blatant disregard for the little bird with no sense of humor). Going back to 3 revoker is also very good, as this card plays a critical role in the match-up. Finally, Prelate on 4 is crucial in preventing the sudden hoof out of nowhere loss that is the gravest threat this deck poses to us. Containment Priest would do even more to help with this, but I find its impact otherwise too limited to put it in the sideboard again.
Sideboarding:
Burn:
-3 revoker
-2 mirran
-1 pontiff
+1 prelate
+1 war priest
+2 canonist
+1 blessed alliance
+1 relic-warder
Esper:
-4 stp
-2 mother
-2 mirran
+1 Manriki
+1 relic-warder
+2 council's judgment
+1 pontiff
+1 gideon
+1 blessed alliance
+1 needle
true-name aggro:
-4 thalia
-1 stp
-1 mother
-1 prelate
-1 judge's familiar
+1 Manriki
+1 relic-warder
+2 council's judgment
+1 pontiff
+1 gideon
+1 blessed alliance
+1 needle
Sneaky show (with omni):
-4 stp
-2 mother
-1 pontiff
-1 jitte
+1 war priest
+1 relic-warder
+2 canonist
+1 prelate
+2 council's judgment
+1 needle
Elves:
-4 thalia
-2 flickerwisp
+1 path
+2 canonist
+1 pontiff
+1 needle
+1 prelate
Played the last GPPTQ with Bahra's main board and 1-2 changes in the side, went 1-2 drop.
Burn felt really, really bad. All of the fetchlands hurt a lot. I lost 3 of the 4 games with Chalice on 1 and Sanctum Prelate out of the side on 2, because 3 mana burn spells still win. I feel like not having maindeck Rishadan Port was very harmful in the burn matches because I could not use turns I wasn't casting things to tap down their mana and slow them up. I also only really had Sanctum Prelate and Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard. Batterskull was definitely not good enough and Dismember was very, very sad in place of Swords to Plowshares.
Beat Omni-Tell out of the side thanks to Mom, Thalia, Wasteland and Karakas.
I actually don't know how I feel about chalice if I am not playing against Elves and Grixis Delver. I'm sure those would have been good in those matches. Also, it was fine on 0 on the play against Omni-tell to stop their Lotus openers. It sure didn't hurt against Burn, they had to top-deck spells to win, they just kept doing it. One round I lost to turn 3 Volcanic Fallout, turn 4 Volcanic Fallout. One guy was even playing sideboard Leyline of Punishment, on top of Sulfuric Vortex.
I don't know what today says though, the meta was crazy and hopefully not representative. 3 Burn, 1 Goblins, 2 Maverick, 1 High Tide, 1 Imperial Painter, 1 Omni-Tell, 1 Grixis Delver, 1 Bant Stoneblade, me, and 3 decks I did not see.
If I had played a meta like Mad Mat faced, except, the burn deck, it would have been fine. I don't think I have ever been at a 15 person meta with 3 burn, 1 Goblins and 1 Painter deck (and I think with 2 Orzhov Pontiff I can fight off Goblins). So much red hate.
How is War Priest of Thune over say Leonin Relic-Warder? It feels easier to cast but much more narrow. Also I assume blessed alliance is really only there for SnS, which feels bad, and TNN deck. Surely there are better things to be played?
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Blessed Alliance is also good against burn and to an extent, storm. Lifegain, bro. Respond to the storm trigger and gain 4 life. Respond to a bolt.
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Okay, so I am here after the horror of today.
Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
4 Plains
2 Plateau
3 Karakas
Creatures 26
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Serra Avenger
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
Other Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard: (15)
2 Rest in peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Path to Exile
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Palace Jailer
My main feeling against Burn, e.g. was that not having STP really hurt me, badly. Have to kill those stupid creatures, even if they only run 8. Plus, i want them for DRS, etc. Chalice + Dismember just feels bad.
I have 15 W sources and Port has both felt bad (except marginally against Burn) and feels less necessary when you have Magus.
I want 4 Flickerwisp. I just do. I also want 2 Serra Avenger, but maybe that ought to be Spirit of the Labyrinth. Avenger is obviously the card that races, but SotL is very strong against combo decks and draw. Neither one are human, but I have 4 Cavern and 15 white sources, so what do I care?
I wasn't thrilled with 24 lands or the mainboard 4 drops, but I like Jailer and P&K in general, so I want them in the 75.
No idea about the sideboard, honestly. I mean, I want Pontiff, Canonist, and Faeries Macabre and the rest is "Um, dunno".
I'm working through testing my 75 as the Legacy-Leg of my team for the Louisville event, and I'm sitting on this quasi-finished main and completely up-in-the-air sideboard.
24 Creatures
4 Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
2 Magus of the Moon, Phyrexian Revoker, Recruiter of the Guard
1 Ethersworn Canonist, Orzhov Pontiff, Sanctum Prelate
13 Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares, Aether Vial
2 Chrome Mox
3 Equipment (Jitte, Batterskull, SoFaI)
23 Land
5 Fetches
4 Cavern, Wasteland, Rishadan Port
3 Plains
2 Karakas
1 Plateau
SB
4 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist, Containment Priest, Surgical Extraction
1 Pia and Kiran, Cunning Sparkmage, Magus of the Moon, Sanctum Prelate, Palace Jailer
Been a while since I did a report (though kind of disingenuously I only really write this when I do well), but I was able to win GP Vegas Byes today with the most stock dnt list I have played in sometimes.
Will write up the full report later, but here is the list
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 flickerwisp
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Mangara of Corondor
Why do people like Serra Avenger? I think that card is wasted cardboard. Could've been a basic forest...
Congratulations on your byes, I got mine with DnT also. I'll see you there, although I haven't the foggiest on what to play.
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I don't play war priest over relic-warder, but I do play war priest over a second relic-warder. I think there are sufficient amounts of food chain and omniscience out there to warrant the priest. It has some additional value against burn, lands, aluren and any deck bringing in dread of night. The effect of permanently killing a critical enchantment is quite important, especially now you have tutor to fetch it up. It is probably the most narrow card in the board, only coming in in about 4 out of 18 match-ups I prepared for. That puts it about the same level of narrowness as Gideon in the post-miracles age.Quote:
Originally Posted by zakzes
Blessed Alliance comes in against eldrazi, delver, burn, infect, reanimator and any deck playing stoneforge mystic and/or true-name nemesis. You don't bring it in against sneaky show because you almost always lose to emrakul there and alliance does little to prevent that. It's a subpar removal spell against delver at 2 mana, but it does kill mongoose and the true-names they tend to play nowadays. It also randomly gains you 4 life, which can be important against the more burn-y versions such as UR delver. But I play it over a second path for its additional power in the other match-ups listed, in particular burn, infect, reanimator and stoneblade.
Hit up a GPT on May 7th, field was somewhat soft, but still ended up coming out ahead and getting my byes for GP Vegas.
The list again
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 flickerwisp
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Mangara of Corondor
So quick list things. Went back to the mono white variant and I completely agree that Cavern can be a liability in certain matchups, particularly against delver variants. So I went for the highest basic plains count I could while still fitting in one cavern, occasional value from this against blue decks but it isn’t important, and a horizon canopy, flood hedging. I lost one game to the horizon canopy doing enough damage to make an exalted tnn lethal, but it was otherwise pretty good. Overall record for the evening was 6-1 in rounds, 13-6 in games
Round 1: Dave Trie on UR Delver 1-2
Game 1: He mulled to 5 and had a hand of all lands and a vortex, I quickly kill him when it comes down to the race
Side In: 2 Path to Exile, 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Ethersworn Canonist
Side Out: 1 Vial, 3 Revokers, 2 Mirran Crusader
Cut boltable non flying threats and a card that does nothing, wasn’t sure what else to cut, but all the non creature spells makes a vial a bit worse
Game 2: He has a very creature heavy start and I’m removal light so I get run over pretty fast
Game 3: A lot like the second game, he has a very creature heavy draw, I have not enough creatures and removal to get me to the end
Record 0-1
Round 2: Trevor Smith on Grixis Delver 2-1
Game 1: He only has cantrips and soft permission. It’s actually pretty funny, due to the turn one cabal on thalia, I thought he was on storm. I had double swords double crusader, so I removed all of his threats and killed him pretty quickly
Side In: 2 Path to Exile, 2 Council’s Judgment
Side Out: 3 Revokers, 1 Serra Avenger
Cut on the cards that do nothing for for removal, cut an avenger as I’d rather have something that can block angler
Game 2: The board gets super stalled as I take some hits from 2 Gurmag anglers and he eventually manages to drain me with drs for game
Game 3: I play a vial on turn 2 after top decking it, and it enabled me to dump my entire hand of prelate, crusader, and SFM fairly easily and lets me attack through completely unabated as he reveals the 2 bolts in his hand stranded by the prelate
Record 1-1
Round 3: Harry Takenaka on Sneak and Show 2-1
Game 1: Mull a reasonable 7, but needed more direct interaction as we both knew what we were playing. I get a quick soft lock with revoker and karakas and he dies needing to top deck a show and tell for his omniscience.
Side in: 2 Containment Priest, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Mangara of Corondor, 2 Council’s Judgment
Side out: 4 Swords to plowshares, 1 jitte, 1 stoneforge mystic
Cut some of the slower cards for things that shut him out faster. Removal is pretty bad, so it also gets cut
Game 2: he forces my turn 1 play then shows a turn 2 omniscience into griselbrand. Finds emrakul and I die
Side in: 2 Ethersworn canonists
Side out: 2 mirran crusader
Dying to show and tell omni sucks
Game 3: I manage to get a canonist in play for the omniscience line, then drop a revoker to deal with the sneaks. He plays a moon on turn 2 which I let happen. He follows with a sneak, which I judgment to be safe. He plays another which I judgment again to be safe. I manage to kill him by hardcasting the batterskull to get me exactly lethal
Record 2-1
Round 4: Chris Kapica on Bant blade 2-1
Game 1: He mulls to 5, but unfortunately a jace bounces my mirran crusader which was holding back his jitte’d deathrites and I end up dead in a few turns as a result after he eventually finds a TNN and with DRS Drains I die
Side In: 2 Council’s Judgment, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, 2 Path to Exile
Side out: 2 Swords to plowshares, 1 flickerwisp, 1 Mother of Runes, 1 Prelate, 1 Aether Vial
Some of this is due to us knowing each other’s list because we test together, I know he’s not on basics, but I don’t want to overload on removal due to TNN and having few answers
Game 2: Starts of very poorly as my equipment get thoughtsiezed and I have a super limited clock. I manage to eventually assemble a board of SFM, thalia, mirran, and flickerwisp. A risky attack from Chris’ TNN lets me crack back and put him to 6. He finds his jitte using stoneforge, puts it into play and connects putting me to 8. I top deck path to exile. Due to his being choked on mana, his board looks like tapped SFM, tapped TNN, tapped Noble, untapped DRS and no untapped lands. I have 3 lands in play, the path to exile gets me exactly lethal damage due to it not being swords, leaving him at 6 and making it so that the jitte counters can’t prevent 6 damage from coming through using any of the modes.
Game 3: He keeps a reactionary ish hand with dread, double drs and double ZP. It kills my thalia, several of my SFMs, a crusader, and a revoker. He thoughtsiezes my Council’s which I was going to use to exile dread. Luckily I was able to put batterskull into play and beat down till he hits 9 life at which point he finds a TNN, but I’m able to emblem a Gideon and finish the game in the air with flickerwisps. Was fortunate he was unable to find a faster clock besides draining with DRS
Record 3-1
Round 6: Dustin (can’t remember the last name) on Elves 2-0
Game 1: He mulled to 5 and only drew lands, while I had t2 stoneforge and got it active early to kill his things
Side in: 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Path to Exile, 2 Containment Priest, 2 Ethersworn Canonist
Side out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Sanctum Prelate, 1 Wisp, 1 Batterskull
Cut a wisp, and the generally bad cards for things that help me not die immediately in the matchup, but I’m basically still just hoping I get insanely lucky.
Game 2: He keeps 7, but plays dryad arbor and passes. I play a vial and pass back. He plays out DRS plus visionary using a cradle. I tick up vial and play mystic fetching jitte with the intention of holding it until I can play and attack with it in one turn. He destroys my vial using decay after I bluff an activation then pushes my mystic. This leads me to take a risk, play out a second mystic and another vial after which I pass. He untaps and natural orders for craterhoof, but due to only having the 3 creatures can only put me to 4 after I chump with mystic. I untap and play a needle on DRS and pass, porting cradle in upkeep. He goes for an attack where I path his craterhoof and go to 2. He then plays nettle and passes. I now need to top deck a creature to pair with the avenger in my hand to not die. I draw the perfect creature in Containment priest. He attacks. I activate vial to put in avenger, flash in priest, block DRS and nettle sentinel and go to 1. I untap cast and equip jitte and manage to stabilize the board. He shows my 2 GSZ’s in hand after he concedes to the jitte.
I was incredibly fortunate that he decided to go for my vial with the decay and also push my mystic. If he had fetched another dryad arbor and ignored my vial, there was no way I was going to be able to win that game.
Record 4-1
Going into top 8, I get third seed, the seeds in order are
UR Delver (Dave)
4c Artifact stuff (I’ll explain later but played by CT)
DnT (Me)
Grixis Delver (Michael g)
Sneak and Show (Michael B I Think)
Dragon Stompy (Andrew Son)
UR Delver (Seth Y)
UR Delver (Prince Cortez Jr)
We all split prizes and decide to just play for the byes
So I get to play dragon stompy round 1 of top 8
Quarterfinals: Andrew Son on Dragon Stompy Intentional Concession
Andrew has byes already and was willing to concede to me, so I definitely owe him and I appreciate the gesture immensely.
Semifinals: CT Barnham (2nd Seed) on 4c Artifact jank 2-1
Ok, let me explain. CT and I both scrubbed out at Fire and Dice yesterday, so we were just having fun messing around with the homebrew he brought. The deck is insane. He plays 4 lotus petals, 4 mox diamonds, 4 mox opals, 4 tombs, 1 of each artifact land minus green, and his plan is to get turn 1 3 or 4 drop as often as possible, sometimes casting day’s undoing once he establishes his mana. The win cons are cards such as new Daretti, Dack, Ajani Vengeant, Nahiri, and Agent Tezz. Additionally he mainboards several lock pieces like ensnaring bridge and humility. Needless to say, I was not excited, as he often gets to the board well before I can slow him down. I forgot to take notes on the games so some of this isn’t perfectly accurate, due to how stressful the game was, but this was definitely the most difficult set I won, partially on sheer luck.
Game 1: He gets a turn 1 Tezz, followed by a daretti. I’m able to eventually clear both and the several 5/5s that were spewed out, but unfortunately he draws into dack fayden, steals my jitte, finds another daretti, then a bridge. I’m promptly locked out as he ultimates daretti to get 5 copies of ensnaring bridge into play.
Side In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Mangara of Corondor, 2 Council’s Judgments, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Surgical Extractions
Side out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Mother of runes, 1 Jitte.
So the seal I’m super glad I brought with me today even if not for this matchup. Same for the mangara. I wanted ways to deal with artifacts and other assorted permanents. He plays very few creatures so I cut some of that interaction. He also plays very little removal, so a mom cut is fine here.
Game 2: I play land go. He plays land go. I drop a Thalia, then I drop a Prelate on 4. He plays daretti and makes a dude, I revoke daretti immediately. He plays bridge, I seal surgical bridge and just beat in with thalia and a bear, and eventually a flickerwisp as prelate on 4 locked him out of most of his more powerful actions
Game 3: He plays ancient tomb, lotus petal, mox opal, but no action. I play land mom. He makes a land drop and passes the turn. I play a land and due to knowing his deck, I decide to cast a pithing needle. There were 3 things I was concerned with, tezz, daretti, and bridge. I choose to needle fair as revokers can’t hit them, but he was fairly far from metal craft, so in hindsight I should have named daretti. He end steps a mindcensor. He plays another land and casts Daretti and pluses, still one artifact from metalcraft. I untap and council’s judgment his daretti. I start playing out my creatures, landing a revoker on grid to be safe and flickerwisp beats get me there as he runs out of action.
Grand Finals: Prince Cortez Jr. on UR Delver 2-0
Game 1: He keeps a super controlly hand. Forces my vials, Kills my first mystic and mom, forces my second with the bskull in hand. He finally finds a threat and flips it to a fireblast. I take the opportunity to waste one of his two mountains in play. At this point I was able to get a flickerwisp and crusader into play. In order to keep himself alive he trades his delver with my wisp and blasts my crusader leaving only the one island. I eventually find a creature to equip jitte to and win the game
Side In: 2 Path to Exile, 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Ethersworn Canonist
Side Out: 1 Vial, 3 Revokers, 2 Mirran Crusader
Same as before
Game 2: I have batterskull in hand with a mystic and some other lands so I keep. He has turn 1 delver which blind flips. He has to bolt my mom, my mystic, and dazes my thalia. His delver manages to hit me to 8 before I top deck and avenger which lets me block and play around daze and I trade with his delver. I then play a flickerwisp to trade with swiftspear. I play a thalia and hard cast a batterskull the following turn as he only had the 2 lands and couldn’t cast a smash. I attack with a jitte’d thalia, leaving up 3 mana to save bskull if something goes wrong. He chain lightnings my thalia which I let happen, and batterskull is able to carry me out.
Final Thoughts:
I’ve been testing the various splashes for the last few weeks and while they all felt powerful and did powerful things, there was a level of consistency I missed in having basic plains to back up on, especially when trying to cast batterskulls, which happened several times throughout the day. Serra avenger put in a ton of work every time I drew it, just being another flying threat to carry equipment was huge. Mangara wasn’t drawn or tutored for at any point, but it was mostly there for when the mirrors get super grindy as there were at least 2 other dnt players in the room. Overall, I was super happy with the performance of the mono white variant and everything felt super consistent
I did some testing with the Bahra-style build yesterday. Here are my conclusions:
Elves is pretty even. I ended up coming out ahead in both pre and post board games. The deck has an incredible density of hate for this matchup. If you are trying to beat Elves, a pile of hate bears PLUS Chalice PLUS Pontiff/Sparkmage will do the trick. Of note, some of the Elves builds are returning to Progenitus now that Terminus is gone.
Sneak and Show is a touch rougher without Revokers, but still fine. You end up locking out the cantrips with Chalice instead of locking down win conditions, which is slightly worse, but still acceptable. I ended up adding one Revoker back to the build as a tutor target after realizing that I kept wanting to find it here and against Planeswalker decks.
Aggro Loam was a bit rough. My mana base was quite exposed to a Wasteland lock, and I really missed having generically good beaters in this midrange matchup. I won many games where I locked out my opponent with Magus of the Moon, but Mox Diamond was an out for them. I missed RiP here.
I have a team constructed event next weekend, and I'll likely give this a whirl there.
I can see that, I just feel that I like the flexibility of relic-warder, especially with mom to protect it. Also I have been messing with a Honor of the Pure to help against Dread of Night and have been liking it quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Mat
I don't ever really play against much burn or UR delver, but I can see it's application. I still think I like council's judgement just a touch more. But thanks for filling me in!
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@Everyone
With Miracles out and StP at a low point, we all need to expect the return of Tombstalker because better players will eventually realize how very playable it is again. In this new environment, it is just better than Gurmag Angler and anyone who has faced the 5/5 flyer knows what a beast it is.
@_Medea
I am sold on Imperial for sure, but I am not sold on Chalice + Ancient Tomb + Dismember. Combined with fetch lands, Ancient Tomb and extremely painful creature removal make it nearly impossible to beat Burn, especially if they run a sufficient amount of post-board CMC 3 spells, which they do, and Burn is more common in the early rounds of a tournament than Elves. I don't want to go to 40-60 or even 45-55 against Elves in order to drop to 20-80 against Burn. That is a bad trade off.
I also think that despite the value of chalice on 1 turn 1 or turn 2, I still prefer Sanctum Prelate because we can protect it with Mom and it stops the casting entirely, which keeps Young Pyromancer from dumping its bad hand to go wide on us (and if anyone doubts the validity of that strategy, look at how Grixis Delver decks beat Eldrazi decks with Chalice on 1 e.g. Noah Walker in Philly a couple years ago.)
@Secretly.A.Bee
I am not entirely sold on Serra Avenger at the moment, but we need a way to close games and we need something that doesn't fold to Dread of Night and allows us to race TNN without equipment.
Eldrazi Displacer (2W instead of 1WW is relevant, effect is excellent, 3/3 is substantial) and Restoration Angel (except for being CMC 4, it is all upside) keep popping into my head bcause they have powerful effects and play well with SfM, Palace Jailer, Pia and Kiran, Pontiff, etc. However, they are not strictly better because they also have costs:
- ED has a high cost of effectiveness and doesn't get through TNN, despite working well for those turns where you just have extra mana
- Restoration Angel really wants us to run 24 lands and Vial on 4 feels kind of bad, so do you look for Cavern #2 on Angel? At least with 4 Caverns, that is feasible.
- Both of them require Vial on something other than 2 and the 3 drops are already plentiful thanks to Recruiter and other cards we are adding.
- Neither of them have vigilance, an under-respected aspect of Serra Avenger.
Dropping a Flickerwisp and the Serra Avengers for Wx creatures could also allow for white sources to go to 13-14, instead of 15 and put a couple of Port back in.
Lands 24
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
2 Plateau
3 Karakas
Creatures 25
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Eldrazi Displacer / Restoration Angel
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
Other Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard: (15)
2 Rest in peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Path to Exile
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Palace Jailer
@Secretly.A.Bee
Blessed Alliance against Storm is loose. It's very, very rare that a Storm opponent goes for exact damage if you have some mana open.
@MadMatt
I try not to cut fliers against Elves. Getting in with equipment is really important to sealing the deal.
The reason I cut a few wisps is because it is the worst creature in the match-up after thalia. Flying is relevant and sometimes flickering is too (e.g. targeting needle or null rod, resetting revoker, re-using stoneforge or recruiter, blinking a critical elf, arbor or cradle from vial...), but it's still most of the time nothing but an expensive extra threat that sucks at blocking duty. Between 2 crusader, 2 wisp, 2 avenger, 3 mother and 1 judge's familiar, you still have ample sources of evasion. You do never want to cut all of your wisps, because recruiting one to re-use a pontiff may be critical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_