Printable View
I'm pretty sure the 4C list is running 0 basics, much like BUG. I've actually been liking my change to 4 basics (I tested against BUG Tempo today). 8 Pieces of removal against them is rough, coupled with Deathrite wars. I did miss Dryad in other matches, but this one was okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by godofallu
-Matt
I am saying: Drop your wastelands for a dustbowl and some serious basics, you cannot lose to self inflicted mana pains when these 4 color decks and 3 color plus wasteland decks are going to shoot themselves in the foot!
Establishing a mana base is one of the most important steps to winning a game as Junk or Maverick. We love our mana's.
Won an 8 man yesterday with first three picks out of Commanders Arsenal on the line. Took the same list as before except I dropped a Bayou for a Plains and in the side I snap swapped Engineered Plague for Relentless when I saw goblins showed up.
Matches
Goblins 2-0
Lands 1-0-1 (<3 DRS)
MiracleBlade #1 0-2
Top 4
MiracleBlade #2 2-0
MiracleBlade #1 2-1
Both miracle varieties were Countertop.
Liliana continued to do work where alternatives would have faltered, and she had a corner case game 2 vs lands where he had out ensnaring bridge, creeping tarpit and I was at 3 life, but Liliana showed she could keep his hand down during extra turns and he scooped for the match loss. There were a few times where she was a liability, like game 3 finals when I had to hold Surgical Extraction as a miracle countermeasure (which later won the game) and couldn't sacrifice other cards, but she was largely effective in controlling his hand so I could drop removal unimpeded (Pulse on Jace/Batterskull).
Decay/Pulse felt good at 3/2 all day.
Any tips on sideboarding for Miracletop? I never had a firm swap established and waffled a lot between games. The top 4 matches I did something along the lines of:
In: 2*Pernicious Deed (Game 2 on the play only), 3*Surgical Extraction, 2*Gaddock Teeg, 1 Virtue's Ruin
Out: 4 StP, 1 Ooze, 1-3 Inquisition
I can't remember if I did Hymn game 2...which didn't show up anyway. With RiP showing up it seems important to try and keep a lot of turn 1 discard available, but at the same time Miracles has plenty of means to Brainstorm or just play off the top of their library.
Virtue's ruin did work to take out early Stoneforges and has obvious means to clear the skies if they don't kill you immediately. Deed can do the same thing but is extremely reactive and felt like a liability overall.
Thoughts? I think I'll put Garruk back in the sideboard as well.
I ran against BUG Tempo that Martell was running on MTGO and the matchup wasn't awful for us. I was really tired on the last post, but it's not a bad matchup at all, especially once we bring in Hymns and such and take out the worse cards. I didn't feel like I missed the extra piece of hand disruption, but I feel like the 4th Decay did make a difference.
-Matt
Is hymn really that good against Miracles?
Also, anyone have advice against 12 Post, or is it simply Wasteland Cloudpost - Extirpate? There are a few at Jupiter Games, and I had the misfortune of running into it.
I was thinking about Armageddon against control/Post. Thoughts?
Hi all, with the holidays coming and my last semester of graduate school I decided to sell my collection and get into the rock. Below is a main and side I want to try along with boarding plans. Please feel free to comment. Also note it plays like a temp deck and is close to Barbed Lightning’s list because we both made the list arguing on the pulse vs. vindicate due to personal preferences.
Rock Main Deck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Marshflats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
SB:
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Bojuka Bog
Vs. Miracles
- 4 Swords + 3 Gaddock Teeg
- 1 Maze of Ith + 1 Bojuka Bog
- 1 Liliana of the Veil + 3 Extrapate
- 2 Inquisition of Kozelik + 1 Garruk Relentless
Vs. RUG
- 4 thoughtseize + 3 Extripate
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
Still am developing boarding plans. Please help. Thank you.
I am curious why liliana of the veil would be a better choice for Rock over Garruk relentless? Now don't get me wrong I think liliana is a great card, and I used it regularly when I was playing bw stoneblade ( which tombstslker version might put up good results in the current meta) I personally dont want to discard some of our bombs. I think the abilities of Garruk outclass liliana right now. I would love some feedback on why we should run liliana over garruk.
Hymn probably isn't good, which is why I decided to take it out but was hoping to see what you people thought. There's obviously the back breaking turn 1 disruption, turn 2 Hymn but in the late game I felt it wouldn't be relevant enough since they don't reload their hand until it's too late (active Jace).Quote:
Is hymn really that good against Miracles?
Armageddon sounds pretty good, with a Sylvan Library or Deathrite out we can certainly rebuild faster and it is definitely back breaking in the late game. It also answers the question I was recently having of how to prevent a late game miracle, but you need to empty their hand of lands so they can't use the Top.
I actually enjoyed having Maze of Ith in vs Miracles, since their threats are generally light and are along the lines of an active Batterskull or Vendilion Clique. It helped me out immensely to be able to buy time against those threats. Bojuka bog was useful as well.Quote:
Vs. Miracles
- 4 Swords + 3 Gaddock Teeg
- 1 Maze of Ith + 1 Bojuka Bog
- 1 Liliana of the Veil + 3 Extrapate
- 2 Inquisition of Kozelik + 1 Garruk Relentless
--
I like Liliana right now because she's more generally relevant against the field. I was goldfishing the deck before I took it to my first tournament and felt it just lacked an engine even when I drew the Garruk, but found that adding Liliana gave the deck a wide variety of tools to combat any situation. In my matches against Miracles I found she gave me constant pressure on their hand as well as taking down their limited creatures, and I felt similarly when testing her against my friend's BW Stoneblade and DnT decks.
The big thing to me is that this deck has a lot of card selection and draw with Sylvan, Top, and Dark Confidant to limit her drawback and generally I'm capable of dropping my hand before her ability becomes a problem. I've tried to play her in Nic Fit, where you depend on high casting bombs, and that was definitely a deck where she did not gel with the deck. I did have some issues with her late against the Miracles deck, but its just something to play around.
I do like what Garruk brings to the table, but you might be left pooping out 2/2's in a matchup where it doesn't matter. That said I may try to go from 3/0 to a 2/1 Lili/Garruk split for the mainboard.
It seems to me that the general consensus around here is to run no Liliana, but I enjoy her company with my playstyle for now.
Because Liliana is good against everything, while Garruk is garbage in some matchups. Like combo, pox, affinity, even most tribal.Quote:
Originally Posted by H0tmilk
But in all honesty Liliana is considered a removal spell and doesn't really take room from Garruk but Maelstrom pulse and Ith.
I think Hymn is good against Miracles, but you're mostly running it against Combo as well. Remember that we ideally want splash hate that covers multiple matchups. Hymns can be backbreaking in many matchups assuming we play it in turns 1-4.
I'm interested to see the results of the Invitational.
I guess I should start the second part of my article as well :P
-Matt
What bombs would that be? The way I see it, Lilliana IS our bomb. Knight is the next biggest thing we have, but hell, we run four of those (imo, we should run 4 of all of our creatures). Maybe she's not as stellar in a GSZ/Toolbox-style Junk deck, where the actual threat density is scattered and lower, but in the quad-style deck lambert and I play, it's not that huge an issue to discard a Goyf. For that matter, Lilly allows us to discard and extra Top, another copy of herself or a library to give goyf those precious extra pumps to his P/T.Quote:
Originally Posted by H0tmilk
I think, as godofallu said, Garruk is more situationally powerful than Lilly. His token production and ping is good in the mirror or against Miracles, but he's absolute garbage against Combo, not to mention his cmc is 4, which is awful off a blind bob. Lilly, on the other hand, has a +1 that is great against combo, aggro and midrange decks, a -2 that's good vs. aggro and mid-range, and a -6 that totally wrecks most decks. She's a perfect goyf pumper, yet another source of removal, a source of constant discard that, in actual practice, rarely hits you, and a potential blowout that pays you for it.
Garruk's in my SB for now. I'm not convinced (for my playstyle) that he's an auto-include in our main.
On the note of Liliana and SBs: anybody considered Loam? Especially against the mirror, allowing you to dredge up wastelands or fetches is awesome. It also gives Liliana cards to pitch (e.g., lands over a Decay), and gives you a way to skim bad cards off the top of your deck, virtually allowing top to see deeper.
I had Loam in the board for a while against RUG, but I didn't feel I needed it so I cut it for Ooze/Tracker.
I'm going to post some lists in the next couple of days that if you're going to Denver, we should be testing against these lists.
-Matt
I wouldn't to it unless you're planning on some number of Loam somewhere in your 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
To all: I have found that Ensnaring Bridge can be pretty awesome alongside Liliana, but it was always tied in with something to break the symmetry like Bitterblossom. Is there potential for a swap of Knight of the Reliquary/Goyf out of the maindeck for Bridge/additional hate? I would think that Garruk would naturally lend himself greatly to the synergy by making tokens and anybody playing Lingering Souls + Jitte would be in a really good strategic position against anything that wanted to win with creatures. Bridge also doubles as good hate against other decks using big Knights or Show and Tell decks slinging Emrakul.
Curious about this line of play, because it's quite a bit outside the box. I would be using Bridge out of the board and bringing in Teeg, Scryb Ranger (for doubling up Deathrites), and maybe even Lingering Souls (if I could make room in my sideboard, or even maindeck.) I would love some feedback from folks using Stoneforge Mystic with Jitte/Souls, if only for discussion's sake.
I feel like I'm adjusting this every day, but based on recent testing, this is what I think I'll be playing for the near immediate future:
Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
Removal:
4 Swords
3 Decay
Disruption:
4 Thoughtseise
2 Inquisition
Library Manipulation:
2 Sensei's Top
1 Sylvan Library
Mana Sources/Lands:
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mase of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Svannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
2 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast/ Maelstrom Pulse
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Abrupt Decay
Rationale behind card choices:
I like the idea of Planeswalker Junk - I think that having so many gives us a great advantage the longer the games go. In order to facilitate getting there, the deck runs two basics, eight fetches to get them, and a one-of Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond is a flex card - it is neither mana source nor card advantage, but it provides three things for our deck. First, it is another "0" to flip off of Dark Confidant. Second, it allows us to ramp to two on turn one or three on turn two - occasionally, ramping to three on turn four is also relevant. Most think that this means that you can just a turn one Dark Confidant into an open board, however a more practical use for this is turn one Deathrite Shaman plus Mox Diamond plus discard with the ability to play a turn two Knight or Liliana regardless of whether or not you have another land. If you had the absolute nut draw, you could play turn two Garruk.
Seven removal spells is iffy - sometimes you want less, sometimes you want more. Swords is in an awkward position right now, simply because Abrupt Decay is so insane. Sometimes, Swords is the nuts - for one white it does everything, however the flexibility of Abrupt Decay has warranted a slot for the fourth one in the sideboard.
In addition to the seven removal spells, the deck comes packed with six one mana discard spells, four copies of Thoughseise and two of Inquisition. The idea here is simple, overload with one drops. Historically, one of Junk's weaknesses was that it was the "two-drop" deck. I am looking to break away from that mold. Whenever I play Magic with no turn one play, even if it is just a Swords on their one drop, I always feel like I am losing. We aren't playing with counterspells - we simply cannot afford to waste our entire first turn doing nothing, especially when most of our two drops are so easily disrupted or countered when we haven't even begun to apply board pressure.
To add to our disruption suite, we have our four walkers, both of which can remove pesky creatures. Liliana is very much the bread and butter of this deck, resolving her early will never win the game, but our deck is simply better positioned for winning the types of games that go long - which is why we have included a singleton Sylvan Library and two copies of Sensei's Top. While this deck incurs a heavy penalty to it's own life total, Sylvan Library provides three advantages - In some matchups, it is simply an inconvenient, more expensive, less protectable top - while this is unfortunate, in other matchups, it can allow you to draw upwards of four to five cards, especially against decks that are using Swords on your big dudes. In addition, with top, you can really get the most bang for your buck, and even without top, you essentially can "top for free" once per turn.
Our creature suite is simple. The best of the best, times four, every time. I think I can avoid going into specifics, but if I need to, I will.
Sideboard:
This is my pride and joy. I have spent a great deal of time working on this, and at the moment, the only thing that is up in the air is whether or not to cut the One-of Darkblast for a One-of Maelstrom Pulse for match ups that include Tokens or what not.
Vs. Miracles
-4 Goyf
-4 Swords
-1 Mase of Ith
-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Pulse
+2 Hymn
+1 Duress
+2 Pridemage
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Bog
+1 Abrupt Decay
The whole point of this sideboard is to punish counterbalance and anything else, as well as avoiding Rest in Peace. For those of you that don't know, Rest in Peace is a real card, and it is a serious beating against us. Just the threat of having it brought in makes our Goyf's tremble more than a turn one Ad Naeusem. Okay, maybe not that much, but you get the gist.
Vs. Goblins (This is subject to change)
On the draw:
-2 Inquisition
-1 Thoughtseise
-1 Knight
-1 Liliana
-1 Confidant
+2 Plague
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Qasali Pridemage
On the play:
-1 Inquisition
-1 Confidant
-1 Liliana
-1 Knight
+2 Plague
+1 Decay
+1 Pulse
Bringing in more removal is always good. Liliana gets worse because of cards like War Marshal and Knight becomes a little worse because while he won't ever die, he's not the best at getting in for damage. On the draw, disruption gets worse because Vial and Lackey are already in play, so you play more threats and removal, hence the Pridemages.
Vs. RUG
-1 Liliana
-1 Garruk
-3 Thoughtseise
+1 Bog
+1 Decay
+1 Duress
+2 Hymn
If they bring in Sulfuric Vortex, you bring in Pridemages.
This deck is tough, but only if they cut you off your resources. Decay is the best card you have against them. In a way, Thoughtseise is better than hymn against these guys because Hymn gets countered so much, however, you need to manage the life loss against them since they always win short and rarely win long. Post board, Knight gets worse if you don't have perfect information because of the presence of Submerge.
Vs. TES/ANT:
-4 Swords
-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Garruk
-1 Mase of Ith
-1 Liliana
+1 Duress
+2 Hymn
+2 Thalia
+2 Teeg
+1 Cannonist
+2 Pridemage
+1 Bog
Against them, Goyf is a clock that isn't fast enough, so we bring in infinitely more disruption. Bog is brought in as another mana source and a way of stopping Past In Flames, Threshold for Cabals, or more mana off of Rites. Thalia is a beating, as is Teeg. Cannonist is too. Pridemage offers a clock with disruption, etc, etc.
And what about Loxodon Smiter or Leyline of Sanctity as a sideboard tech against mirror/BUG?
The meta seems plenty of BGx decks, Deathrites and Lilianas, Loxodon is great against Liliana's ability or Thoughtseize and it is very usefull in other matches such as RUG (which is one of the tiers). At least is a 4/4 for 3 mana.
Leyline of Sanctity is also great against discard or Liliana ability, and even better against combo or burn which are difficult pairings. Why is this card is not included in sideboards? Of course you need to run 4 copies and try to open the hand with it but I see it very determinative while playing against combor/burn.
Deathmark is also an interesting option if no tribal is played.
The main problem with Leyline is sucking up 4 Slots, which can be brutal.
I've run Deathmark in the past, especially when killing a T2 SFM was necessary, and when Maverick was super popular, but I think with 4 Decay and 4 STP you're fine here.
Smiter is not bad at all, but he's a 4/4 that can't be countered (good) but easily removed by Swords/Decay (bad). I would say he's decent though against opposing (or your own) Lilianas.
-Matt
I'm not certain if you meant that you can drop him off of your own Lilianas' discard, but Smiter can only be dropped via discard effects your opponents control.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I guess I should read cards before I comment on them. Oops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I mean, I was dancing a bit in my head if Smiter could be dropped off your own Liliana.
@ Dyvith
I'm going to read over your last post a bit more before I comment on it, but it wasn't ignored.
-Matt
I saw the raw power of Liliana being used against me while playing against a BUG deck today in testing. The card definitely seemed the best when you were just drawing a ton of cards off Confidant in conjunction, as well as Jace, Brainstorm, etc. I could see Liliana being good when your opponent is in topdeck mode, so I understand where you guys are coming from, but damn was Garruk also really good as well.
-Matt
Liliana's good even when you aren't drawing cards. I've won many games with her by simply playing whatever I drew and ticking her up by one. Rarely will I be in the position of having something in-hand that I NEED to keep, esp. with a 4-of-style list. She's also good against an active top if you have destruction in hand. Destroy Top, they draw, you make them discard it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I prefer her because she's an omnitool. +1 helps against spell-based decks. -2 against creature decks. Practically no deck survives her -6. At her very worst, she's a diabolic edict with a fog attached to it--that then pumps Goyf by 1. Hell, even if they counter her, she's great to toss into the yard, simply to add planeswalker to Tarmogoyf's P/T.
I dislike Garruk because half of his abilities are inaccessible until he loses counters, and he loses them by using what is essentially weak removal. 2/2's every turn is nice against miracles, I suppose, but if I was going to cast a 4 cmc walker it would be Elspeth, since she gets your dudes over a Moat and makes Goyf/Knight even scarier, and she makes 1/1s. Double white isn't that hard to get against miracles, since they run no wastelands, and you wouldn't bring her in against many other matchups. I'd probably use her in the mirror, as well, even with the wastelands.
Regardless, I just don't see the rationale against Liliana. I think she is one of the best cards in our collective pool and should be in abused in every Junk list out there.