Welcome to the club brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Printable View
Welcome to the club brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I see what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte
The combo also has to be used patiently as if they have a wasteland untapped, they can disrupt the combo in response to a knight/wayfarer/crop rotation type effect when tutoring for the second land.
I thought about the combo for a little while, and decided to make a small list of top tier decks and how much they cared about the 20/20:
Stoneblade: Has STP, Karakas, Jace to bounce, Lingering Souls to block with, and Wasteland to deal with the combo. You would have to pack a couple safekeepers to try and effectively use this combo vs them.
Jund: Only has wasteland/Liliana -2 to interact when lands/marit on board, hymn to tourach for discard if pieces are in hand. This would be a great match for the combo.
Sneak and show: Will probably combo out faster than you, and emrakul attack trigger renders this combo pretty worthless unless you can somehow get 6 permanents on the board first. If they struggle to find emmy it should be in your favor, but that is the case with regular maverick anyways.
Tempo Thresh: They have stifles and wastelands, and will try to kill your knight/wayfarer at any costs anyways. Not quite as bad as stoneblade for depths, but submerge post board could hurt after comboing.
Storm: This combo has no place in this matchup, better to be bojuka or a hatebear in these slots.
Team America: may have stifle, wasteland, and jace/lili to deal with marit.
Shardless: Jace, Wasteland, hymn, sower of temptation post board (yikes)
Miracle: Terminus, STP, jace, angel tokens to block with.
I know the combo would probably be better against some of the lower tier decks, but after analyzing the matchups it strenghtens and the matchups where a maze of ith (or something to negate jitte counters tower of the magistrate etc) might be more useful I am not so sure I still like the combo. I will definitely do it in the begining because it sounds really fun and will catch people off guard but who knows if it will rise to the top.
Your analysis is entirely correct. That’s why I think the combo should be just a B plan. On the other hand, top tiers have answers against everything (or are just faster than you if they succeed with their plan). I mean the combo doesn’t win by itself in a vacuum, but can be the most efficient strategy in the right situation. You are interacting with opponent’s answers anyway – Sylvan Safekeeper and Mother of Runes against spot removal, Mother of Runes against blockers, Wastelands against land hate, Phyrexian Revoker against plainswalkers, Gaddock Teeg against miracles and so on – investing in the combo is a choice depending on the board position.
I second your position about not sacrificing other tools of the deck for the combo – in fact I took the root to replace two lands, which seems acceptable so far, especially in a Vial build.
Only time will say if the combo is worth the trouble. The main benefit I found in my testing is the actual capability to reverse the game position. I played many games where I was just behind and the combo was a silver bullet to win a game otherwise lost. Don’t forget that opponents too must decide if they want to save an answer for the combo: usually it’s not the right choice, they’re not profiting an answer against your actual position, waiting for a threat that could never come.
Liliana/Jace is useless mostly vs combo since you just put it eot - it only matters if they have blockers
Hi, I'm going to play old school Maverick tonight with this list
Creature [27]
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Mother of Runes
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifact [7]
4 Æther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Land [22]
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
1 Batterskull
15 cards
How do you sideboard with this list??
That's a good point. And wasteland isn't actually as much of a problem as I thought, you can mostly play around it and force them to use their wastelands on it rather than your savannah for example (been doing some test rounds in cockatrice)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Rest in Peace and Surgical Extractions against GY decks/keep off threshold in storm/tempo, Mindbreak Traps and Gaddock Teeg for storm, and Oblivion Rings for randomness, planeswalkers, and Show and Tell variants. I imagine that, running four of the card, he was hoping to mulligan into it against Show and Tell like you might with Leyline of the Void against a dredge deck. (mostly a quote from this article by Caleb Durward regarding luis viciano's version). I imagine with yours: Gaddock does in vs storm and control, surgicals are static GY hate, ethersworns vs storm, elves, show and tell, enchantress; o rings vs planeswalkers and show and tell and random jank, chokes vs control for the long game, rest in peace for gy hate/vs tarmogoyfs, batterskull is universally pretty good but only really weak to combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by angel882
Again, my reservation about Thespian's Stage / Dark Depths "combo" is that it eats up two land slots that don't produce :g: or :w: and have little to zero utility on their own accord.
It does not benefit Maverick to draw these cards at odd moments in the game when another land would be needed. Thus, they can't replace the ~20 core lands in the deck; and instead take up the spell slots. How would those who are advocating for this "combo" fit it into the Maverick shell without detriment to the consistency and quality of its spells/land mix?
Thanks for your answer. Played 3 rounds tonight in a locall tournament (11 players) first time with this real maverick and ended up 2-1. Last round I lost to Goblins because I should have mulliganed to five (six was too slow). Oh and also because my opp draws seven goblins with two Ringleaders :P He had only one mountain in play and I had his Vials locked with my Revoker but somehow he managed to win!!! Batterskull was great in my meta and I'm really considering adding it to my MD because I sided it in every game.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Ah, yeah sword of fire ice/jitte are super crucial as early as possible vs gobs and sometimes that isn't even enough. It is a pretty close matchup in many cases, and can all come down to luck. I personally have used dueling grounds and enlightened tutor in my sb for that match, but I play the GSZ version and I also run into affinity/elves and other swam decks often in my meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by angel882
From a competitive standpoint, using it as a sideboard plan similar to the natural order/progenitus sideboards of old seems the best application to me, or as morte mentioned, the vial build and wayfarers ala m@verick. I will probably test morte's list a bit because it seems like the most consistent maindeck verison of the stage depths style maverick, whereas I will sideboard it in the GSZ version; most likely over path to exile or gutshot (matches where you really want the combo are matches where you would typically want more removal, ie jund/midrange fair/aggro.dec). Those slots seem fine to replace with 1 stage and 1 depths, at least to test with in the beginning, then once test data is obtained decide whether to axe it, keep it in sideboard, or migrate to main if it performs very well (though this will largely be a meta call like maindeck linvala used to be).Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I totally agree with you.
Vial list has lower color requirements than GSZ build and doesn’t want to draw lands when it has an active Weathered Wayfarer. Also in my testing I had no issues with the manabase after replacing two lands with the combo. I wouldn’t increase the land count anyway, so I feel no reason to touch the spell list. You almost always have G/W sources anyway, therefore Thespian’s Stage with its generic mana works more or less as well as any other land, and occasionally its ability is quite useful. Only Dark Depths is dead on its own.
That’s not likely. With Vial list, if the opening hand is a keep it means that it has adequate mana on its own. I don’t know if you tested the list: it tends to play with a very low land count, once you have an active Weathered Wayfarer or Knight of the Reliquary you can fix immediately your mana, and it’s rare that is needed; then you mostly fetch for Gaea’s Cradle, Wastelands or Horizon Canopy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I’m normally pleased to draw a piece of the combo “at odd moments in the game”. It means that with a single Weathered Wayfarer or Knight of the Reliquary activation I have the option to go for a power move, while if it is better to proceed with the standard plan, it is just an irrelevant draw as another extra land.
I've started playing the M@verick list from BoM yesterday since it catched my interested and I'm probably building it when I'm buying in at MTGO. It's somewhat similiar to D&T, but overall less expensive since paying about 300 bucks for a playset of Ports is downright retarded.
My run so far wasn't bad, but I would like to know why there was no Batterskull included in his 75? Because the deck is tight on mana? It feels kinda weird to play SFM without having an option to fetch it. And the equipment package feels somewhat slow.
I could consider using one if you had lots of agro around you, but otherwise the deck doesn't really need a Batterskull. You have first strikers and fliers to carry equipment while you waste out your opponent (using cradle and vial to make up for the loss of land drops.)
I feel the "dead card" factor of the combo is being overstated around here. Drawing one half of the combo is absolutely fine. Casually tutoring for the other is extremely easy in a deck with 4 Knights (and Wayfarers). Drawing both is a LOT worse, though, but having the option to put out a 20/20 EOT is absolutely worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Dark Depths needs to replace a spell, not a land, because you can't tap it for mana. Stage replaces a land, but it does have some utility without Depths. Stage can copy a Canopy, Maze, Wasteland, or even a Savannah if you need it. Still, it's slow and only useful after the midgame and could color screw you early on occasion.
Marit Lage seems good against other midrange "fair" decks, such as the mirror or Jund. It's an "oops, I win" situation if you pull it off and have a way to protect it. It can break those long stalemate games.
Hey Guys,
i mostly play the straight GW Zenith Maverick or Dark Maverick (With some Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize..). Is the the Dark Depths+Thespian's Stage combo ? Just swap a Spell and one land with the combo pieces, or its to clunky without Wayfarers or Crop Rotation?
Sometimes I think to switch from the normal Mav to the Vial Maverick. Where are the tro pros and cons of Vial Maverick to Zenith Maverick?
Vial version - Pros:
- Greater card advantage than GSZ build (Wayfarer, SFM, stronger equipment plan)
- Faster (Vial, lower curve, more tutors for Cradle)
- More resilient to counters (Vial)
- More adaptive to opponent's plan: full equipment options from SFM
- More adaptive to opponent's plan: better land tutoring engine
- Broader hate bears pool and anti-combo options (no need to maximize green creatures)
- Instant speed hate bears shenanigans (Vial)
- More evasive (flying) creatures (mainly to guarantee connection with SoFaI and SoLaS)
- Less mana intensive (Vial)
Vial version - Cons:
- Vial is not good in multiples and a bad draw mid-lategame
- Less consistent (Vial, lack of GSZ)
- Lack of GSZ and 1of tools (Dryad Arbor, single Teeg etc.)
- Less beaters, more relying on lock pieces and equiments than aggro plan
- More tricky to play at best
GSZ version - Pros:
- Greater card quality and deck consistency (GSZ)
- Efficient 1of green tool package (Arbor, Teeg, Ooze, Thrun etc.)
- More beaters, 8x KoR, stronger aggro plan
- Dark splash easily available (DRS, AD, discard etc.)
- Most popular build - the majority of players consider GSZ build better
GSZ version - Cons:
- Slower, despite 8x turn one mana accelerators Vial build is faster
- Less card advantage, especially in topdeck mode
- More vulnerable to counters
- More mana intensive
- Most popular build - more straightforward, good players know perfectly how it works and how to play against it
I didn't test Dark Depths+Thespian’s Stage combo in a "standard" GSZ build without extra land tutors, it doesn't look very good on paper. What I can say is that from the combo point of view Vial build ala M@verick is more suitable, because:
- Only two slots devoted to the combo is robust enough (Wayfarer + KotR)
- Additional land tutoring makes easier finding Wastelands against opposing Karakas/Maze of Ith
- Maindeck MoR AND Sylvan Safekeeper provide extra protection for the token (as well, occasionally, as the Swords)
Thanks Morte for the explanations. I also think, that the combo fits better in the vial build.
I think the vial build is more difficult to play, but when you master it a little bit stronger than the Zenith build.
What do you think, gainst which MU's the Vial build is better than the zenith build? And against which is the zenith build better?
The more I test the Vial build, the more I like it.
What are your thoughts on Mindbreak Trap vs. Canonist? While Trap can prevent T0/T1 loses against Storm/Belcher decks, it seems quite narrow.
I'm also interested in the match-ups of the Vial build against T1 decks.
I'm running Canonist over Trap. Canonist is better against Elves and OmniClash, which I expect to see more often than Belcher/Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Ok everybody's waiting what M@verick think's about the Depths+Stage in vial buildings (if he wanna share with us gsz buildings i will not complain)