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If it's our only land in hand we have to mulligan. Riftstone Portal doesn't do enough for me.
I tested this card a while back (competitively) and whilst it wasn't completely bad, I think it's in the same category as Dakmor Salvage, as it's a card that could be useful given it's niche use comes up, but otherwise it's average at best.
FWIW, I tested Dakmor a lot more than Riftstone, as I was running Abrupt Decay in the side at the time.
Yeah, but that's assuming we're putting in Riftstone in place of a different land. I don't think it'd be worth it to cut a rainbow-land for Riftstone. We need to mulligan a lot of hands anyway, so I feel like the bigger problem is that it would be taking up slots in which we'd rather have a fourth Thug, a redundant Looter, or some sideboard card. Assuming we're keeping the standard 12 lands (quad Coliseum and a mix of Cities, Confluences, and Mines), Riftstone is competing with nonlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Agreed. And given we're playing with rainbows to start with, it's not really adding much.
I mean Undiscovered Paradise is a better T1 choice than Riftstone, and no one talks about the card.
Undiscovered Paradise works well together with Bloodghast. Bloodghast also works well with Petrified Field. And Petrified Field is must have to rescue wasted/stripped Bazaar of Baghdad. So, perhaps, Undiscovered Paradise is better in Vintage than in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
And in Legacy, other than triggering Bloodghast, Undiscovered Paradise can be potentially useful if you already have it in play and want to have more cards in hand to go to discard sooner. But I don't think such situations are often.
I personally wouldn't use Undiscovered Paradise without Bloodghast and this would be very different build (and, perhaps Dakmor Salvage would be another land to include into this build). I may be wrong, though.
Nah thats about right. Here is what that looks like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronatog
http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token...ide=&strict=on
@Que: Congrats on another Top 8! Looks like you also had success with the FOW sideboard plan that Parcher started. Any scenarios in that tournament where FOW shined?
Thanks bruh.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
This was the first time trying FOW in the board. As such I had to cut the Petals to make space, but by doing so I knew I would weaken my ability to cast Abrupt Decay so I cut it too; that and I still wanted to find an out to Chalice/Leyline of the void. This is the reason I brought Wear/Tear to the tournament, but I did not run into any Eldrazi that day so they went unused. The inclusion of Chain of Vapor was to increase my total blue count to 20 along with also being a soft out to Leyline. I figured I would be boarding in 4x FOW alongside 2x Chain in certain matchups. The remainder of the board is a Dread Return package.
I brought in FOW against Grixis Delver Round 1 game 2 to try it out (I'm not saying this is correct). I FOW'd his turn 1 DRS and he was taken a back. He paused for a moment and then Forced back. I believe he then dazed my 1st spell and wasted my land couple turns after. I couldn't really get off the ground this game anyway. I think it was fine to bring in, but he just had a lot more disruption to go along with the DRS.
I didn't get a chance to play DnT to try them. According to Parcher he hasn't lost to DnT since hes made the change over to FOW. I'm hoping to have similar results as I don't enjoy that matchup too much. xD
It was great against ANT. He had the kill in his hand, but couldn't go for it after probing me and seeing that I had the FOW for the Ad Naseum he was about to cast. He lets me know that he shuffled away Duress in favor of the kill since he wasn't expecting any permission. I dredge into some goodies and strip the ad naseum and some other cards out of his hand via cabal therapy and seal the match.
Additional thoughts:
I think there are also some mind game benefits. If they see it game 2 it gives them something to think about game 3 even if you just decide to board them back out in favor of a more explosive game on the play. I will probably continue to give them a whirl to see how effective they are over the course of a few tournaments.
Hi everyone,
Long time viewer here to gather information to help me play the legacy and the deck I love more in legacy: Dredge, but never post something.
I'll start by presenting myself: I'm an old magic player. I started when i was young with unslaught and ended with timespiral. A friend get me back in magic 8 month ago. I started with modern, witch is 'nice' but I think legacy is more interesting.
I'm french but I live in malta. Here nobody play legacy, just me and my friend :cry:
Here is my deck list:
Deck:
13 lands
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
22 Creatures
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Prized amalgam
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
25 Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
Sideboard:
3 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
2 Chain of vapor
1 Elesh norn
1 Ashen rider
1 Memory's journey
1 Ancient grudge
I went to my first tournament in Paris : eternal weekend and I went to the feature table playing dredge.
You could find the video here : https://www.twitch.tv/bazaar_of_moxen/v/96437952
I started at 1:25:00, at 1:39:00 (the friend that put me back in legacy. We went at the feature match at the same time \o/)
1:46:00 Me again.
I really sorry for the bad play on this video. I was stressed, I kept hand I shouldn't have kept and I was not lucky on my dredge. It was the less interesting match I had this day (And of course it's the one on twitch :frown:).
I've done a lot of mistakes. Like, on this video, on game 3, I keep Iona instead of Ashen rider, that cost me the game.
I really enjoyed playing this tournament with dredge. I ended with 5 win and 4 loss for a rank of 101/294. I could have been better without some misplay, but now more than ever I wanted to master this deck and do others tournament.
So I'll post here time to time to ask for some help or give you report on tests and play I could do with dredge. If you want a full report on this tournament ask and I'll make one.
Like Parcher said on a previous post, there were no permanent hate but everyone has surgical extraction. (Just 1 player had side a unique gravedigger's cage and he never draw it). So every game2 my sideboard slow me more than it help me.
I'm thinking about changing my sideboard to:
4 Force of will
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Chain of vapor
2 Prized amalgam
1 Elesh norn
1 Ashen rider
1 Memory's journey
1 Ancient grudge
A 'fearless' version where I just have chain of vapor for a game 3 in case of some leyline (But with no help other than cabal and FOW for something like RIP).
With a sideboard like this I'm thinking doing something like : I remove 2 ichorid to get 2 prized in that could be used for fow and also probe to replace breakthrough, and FOW replacing led. For example against storm (OTD).
What do you think about probe to help dredging, cabal and be used for FOW ?
Did someone also try something like:
4 Dark Depths
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Vampire Hexmage
To absolutely change the deck game 2 ?
I don't like Probe for one main reason. By itself, it does nothing the deck needs. Blue count for Force is irrelevant. You could use anything for that, and should not need to board in more U to make FoW viable. Brainstorm is infinitely better at drawing cards. And it doesn't even draw cards that Dredge wants without a discard outlet. Even Wraith is better for that, since it's uncounterable, and feeds Ichorid. For a new player, I can see the appeal of the peek. But it's not needed once you learn your matchups. YouQuote:
Originally Posted by lagueur
For a SB vs Extraction, I prefer Unmask. Adding more Amalgams doesn't do much. They already require an activation, which Extraction can stop. And if an issue, they can still hit the Amalgams. And a one-of Journey rarely gets there. The odds of it showing when you need it, can cast it, and they can't stop it, are too slim. Unmask is obviously good at stopping Extraction before it has use. Especially in conjunction with Therapy. But since most of those decks also have countermagic, I've found Unmask also shines when they play protect the queen. That is, when you cast discard, they counter it to save their Extraction, and you Breakthrough, allow their Extraction to resolve(it has to be on Narcomoeba or occasionally Bridge), and dredge enough to smash them anyway.
And running two Chain is pointless. The odds of you getting it in a keepable hand, when your opponent has Leyline, just one, and doesn't have Chalice, are miniscule.
Thank you Parcher, it's really helpful.
I have some comments below to explain my ideas behind this sideboard:
For now I didn't test dredge with FOW, and I'm thinking there is not so much blue, and If I have I may want use it to draw and discard instead of a FOW. But I didn't test it yet to make my opinion.Quote:
You could use anything for that, and should not need to board in more U to make FoW viable.
Yes that a main reason for me thinking using probe instead of wraith. For me it's not really for the draw but more to reveal my opponent hand without paying mana (and maybe used it for fow).Quote:
For a new player, I can see the appeal of the peek. But it's not needed once you learn your matchups.
I still don't know well the meta and there is a lot of decks I never saw. On game 1, I always says brainstorm to have a chance to hit something and see his hand. Like this he can't hide things for the second cabal that usually come right after :wink:.
I was thinking about probe also because before playing anything it could give me advice on his potential hate (on game 2) and give me clues if I could dredge like hell or if on my first turn I should cabal to get rid of a hate card and then start dredging on turn 2. In this case the 'free' draw is more to not loose a card than dredging (like wraith could make me more efficiently).
Quote:
For a SB vs Extraction, I prefer Unmask.
Unmask will work also see my opponent hands (and discard at the same time), but same as FOW, I'm still afraid to not have a black card I want to get rid of in my hand and I finish with a dead card. I assumed it's because It's a common fear for beginner (If I remember well, long time ago FoW was not used because of that).Quote:
Unmask is obviously good at stopping Extraction before it has use. Especially in conjunction with Therapy. But since most of those decks also have countermagic, I've found Unmask also shines when they play protect the queen. That is, when you cast discard, they counter it to save their Extraction, and you Breakthrough, allow their Extraction to resolve(it has to be on Narcomoeba or occasionally Bridge), and dredge enough to smash them anyway.
Against surgical I really like memory's journey because it could stop the extraction, save my bridge or help me to removed some card from opponent's graveyard. So it's never a dead card.
Make sense.Quote:
Adding more Amalgams doesn't do much. They already require an activation, which Extraction can stop. And if an issue, they can still hit the Amalgams. And a one-of Journey rarely gets there. The odds of it showing when you need it, can cast it, and they can't stop it, are too slim.
Make sense also but for me it was more to still have an answer in the deck for a T0 leyline even if I had to used all my draw spell to get it instead of concede without event trying.Quote:
And running two Chain is pointless. The odds of you getting it in a keepable hand, when your opponent has Leyline, just one, and doesn't have Chalice, are miniscule.
Again, thanks for these comments. I think I'll try something like this:
4 Force of will
3 nature's claim
2 Unmask
1 Elesh norn
1 Ashen rider
2 Memory's journey
2 Ancient grudge
Did you also have an opinion on the Marit Lage combo sideboard ?
This is true, but adding more cards you don't want to facilitate FoW is bad as well. You may have hands where your only draw spell is needed for FoW. In those cases, you have to evaluate whether the hate you expect is worth saving the ability to Force. And, whether it's a match where you can lose the turn or two by waiting.Quote:
Originally Posted by lagueur
Right. Unmask is simply more of what we want in a single card. Seeing their hand is not terribly important if you have nothing to affect it. And remember, in a pinch, Unmask can act as a manaless discard outlet for you. Pitching seems bad, since unlike for FoW, we always "want" the Black card. But also unlike FoW, we have tons of redundancy in all the Black cards but Bridge. But I've found that losing one Bridge, when you are guaranteeing that you can go off, is usually irrelelvant.Quote:
Originally Posted by lagueur
I disagree. It's dead if they don't have extraction. It's dead if you have no mana. It's dead if they use Extraction before you find one. I ran it when it had additional use against Storm and Reanimator. With FoW and Unmask in the SB now, the need for such has been greatly reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by lagueur
Remember you complaining about boarding in dead cards? You're doing the same thing here. In addition to the other qualifications I mentioned above, remember that you also can search and search and find Chain, only to die anyway. Since you've expended so many resources to just try and get a 2-of to remove Leyline. And unlike Cage, Leyline undoes all the work you did to find an answer as you discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by lagueur
No. I don't like transformational sideboards. I like them less in Dredge. And I think in that one, running less than 4 Hexmage seems wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by lagueur
I tried to make the Dark Depths sideboard work here in Dredge - it's not where I wanna be, felt awful without running a deck dedicated to the combo.
So far, I don't see any C16 cards that are a consideration for us.
Chain of Vapor getting a reprint and new art doesn't count.
I'm curious to try out the FoW sideboard plan my next tournament.
Right now main deck is 3 Ichorids, 2 Amalgams, 2 Putrid Imps, 3 Breakthrough, 1 DR, 1 Iona, 12 lands.
Given the decline in Combo due to Miracles and Eldrazi I can probably move Iona to the Sideboard and add the 13th land to the Main.
That gives me:
4 Force of Will
2 Unmask
1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ashen Rider
5 Others (probably more anti-hate or Firestorms)
People who have been testing out FoW such as Parcher and Que what conclusions have you made about the Pitchboard? What match ups do you bring them in for/leave them out? I've read through your older postings about the plan, but want to know if anything has changed with further testing.
I might try them again. I don't think they've particularly shined in any matchup, but thats because I'm not seeing it usually. I tend to keep postboard hands that have most of the elements if not all that I want (Dredgers, Draw Spell, and land) regardless of whether I see a FOW. So after turn 1 there is a chance I'm just dredging them away. Such is the case for other sb cards we usually bring in. One thing I have noticed about cards like Firestorm, Lotus Petal, FOW, and Unsmask etc.. is that they become way worse the more we have to mulligan. We can't really mulligan down to say 5 cards and still have enough gas to Firestorm, FOW, or unmask anyone effectively as you're already down a good number of resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbousm
The fact that we're mentioning combo is on the decline might be a reason to not include FOW. One of the reasons you would run this card is to give you something against faster combo like Ad Naseum, Belcher, Reanimator, Omni, but if those decks aren't being played or do not represent a majority of the current metagame then it would make sense to shore up the more traditional matchups like Miracles, Grixis & 4C delver, Shardless BUG, as well as other matchups like Eldrazi, Infect,. I did particularly enjoy casting Wear/Tear as I was able to destroy a Chalice on 1 and a Leyline of the Void game 2 in one of my most recent tournaments. I'm convinced Nature's claim is not the answer to a prison like meta. at least in my meta as I've also had to play against Lands and MUD on top of Eldrazi. And I don't want FOW in either of those matchups.
I've been playing LED Dredge for the last 5 years, but this is my first post in this thread. I've playtested force of will out of the side, but I was very unimpressed. I've since gone back to my standard build. My sideboard is catered to fighting three modes of hate: surgical w/ additional ichorid, amalgrams, and memories journey; enchantments/artifacts w/ ancient grudge and serenity; and combo decks ala fearless dredge w/ additional breakthrough, winds of change (breakthrough 5&6), iona, and lotus petal for explosive hands.
against eldrazi I side in serenity, lotus petals, and breakthrough while taking out imps, 1 land, 1 cabal, 1 ichorid, and 1 golgari thug and tend to have a 50/50 shot of winning even w/ a leyline and chalice.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Putrid Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ichorid
1 Breakthrough
2 Prized Amalgam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Memory's Journey
3 Serenity
2 Lotus Petal
2 Winds of Change
This list seems fine. The only knock I would have against it is the fact that you're only running three Cabal Therapy which I think is wrong. Perhaps plop the last one in the SB because against other combo decks you're going to want them. I think you can afford to cut a winds of change. Sure more of the same type of effects are great, but in all honesty what are you taking out to bring in 2x Lotus Petal, 1x Iona, 1x Breakthrough, 2x Winds of Change. My guess would be something like -2 Putrid Imp, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid, and -2 Careful Study?? O.o Winds of Change and Breakthrough are only good when paired with LED on Turn 1 otherwise they will almost always exclusively be played on Turn 2 after you've done your initial setup. If you do take out PIMPs which would make sense since they're a bit slower then I don't recommend cutting Careful Studies as those will be your only way to discard your dredgers outside of LED. I'm just making assumptions though.lol It still seems like a reasonable list.Quote:
Originally Posted by contra
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Also shout out from NA to Borja Villada who is putting up results in Spain with one of the only successful LEDless lists I've personally seen:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21536&iddeck=165192
played in a weekly on tuesday with lotus petal dredge. beat 4c delver twice, ant, and lost to an esper deck b/c of rest in peace twice.
list:
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
4 breakthrough
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 narcomoeba
3 ichorid
2 dread return
1 flame-kin zealot
1 firestorm
1 mana confluence
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid coliseum
sb:
1 darkblast
4 abrupt decay
3 mana confluence
1 iona
1 elesh norn
1 blazing archon
2 surgical extraction
2 unmask
blazing archon won a game vs grixis delver. would recommend more unmasks instead of abrupt decay or wear/tear. probably gemstome caverns over the mana confluences as well. it's likely not the best version of dredge, but i enjoy the turn 1 kills, and this version tends to do this the most. i like the maindeck firestorm (thanks to parcher for running that) and might even consider a 2nd.
-rob
played another weekly. 3-1. beat elves, grixis delver, grixis delver. lost to RB reanimator.
same maindeck.
sb different:
sb:
1 nature's claim
3 wear/tear
1 memory's journey
1 iona
1 elesh norn
1 blazing archon
1 firestorm
2 unmask
4 gemstone caverns
still not sure what to cut from sb. i think wear/tear will be cut to 2 and will run 1 more firestorm.
Saw someone went 5-0 with a very similar list except not running lotus petals main and running a griselbrand over the 4th thug. Have you tried the petals maindeck yet? If so what was the turnoff for you?
How was the griselbrand and was it better than thug?
Edit: it actually looks like - 1 firestorm +1 griselbrand and then - 1 thug for the 4th ichorid. I do feel like 4 ichorid s is probably best in a deck without putrid imp.
Also what we're your matchups?
Obviously I've taken this out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I've run Unmask on and off, over the last 5 years in every type of Dredge deck I've played, but only ever from the side.
.....And every time I've suggested or listed it here on Source or on Salvation for LED-Dredge, I've been criticized.
Typically, when I've run it, I've used 2 in the side, but I've not run it for a while now due to using FoW instead.
I think the popularity of Infect & D&T around me, and other non-brainstorm decks really does demand Unmask gets a little attention.
That's been my experience too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I've been considering going back to a more regular build also. I kinda feel that Force is only in my deck because of Chalice-taxing-types that stop Claims cold.Quote:
Originally Posted by contra
I want my anti-hate to work, even though the chances of drawing it in g2 and g3 are always going to be low, I don't want it to be a dead card all the same.
FWIW, I've been playing on/off with Force both from the side, and in the main, in some form of Dredge (both here and manaless) as a reaction to Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace being printed back in 2012. When I've played Manaless I've almost exclusively played Manaless with FoW since then, but more recently in LED-Dredge. So yeah, you could say I've given the old blue a fair try.
I've not done any major tournaments like SCG Opens etc. for quite a few years, as my town doesn't have them and I'm some 3500km's+ from the closest city that does.
I'm not giving up on Force, but it seems to me that Force is one of the most marginal choices in my deck, given it demands so much in terms of deck construction even though the effect is marginal.
And yeah, I took my Blue LED-Dredge deck along last night (I've been playing other decks lately) and went 4-1.
Side: 2 Dread Return (1 main), 2 Iona, 4 FoW, 1 Prized Amalgam (1 main), 3 Firestorm, 3 Petals.
I beat UG-Infect 2-1, UW-Miracles 2-1, another UW-Miracles 2-0, UWg-Stoneblade 2-1
Lost to Aggro Eldrazi 0-2 (he locked me out early in both games)
Iona locking out opponents was the order of the day. Naming green vs Infect, blue vs blade, white vs Miracles won me a few games.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest made an appearance with Stoneblade. Prized Amalgam did a lot of heavy lifting in grindy games vs Miracles too.