If we are going deep I recommend willow satyr for sneak and show :)
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If we are going deep I recommend willow satyr for sneak and show :)
I'd rather go deep in a tournament than go off the deep end XDQuote:
Originally Posted by starfox444
So what's the consensus on 4 NO maindeck? There was an SCG open not too long ago with 4 Main in all 4 decks in the top 4. If it's sided out against softcounter delver decks and miracles is 4 main really worth it? I'm thinking game 1 against miracles you would want to NO asap as the grindy plan doesn't work too well.
I think the question is which matchups packmaster is not only good in, but is it better than that 4th MD NO+dedicated SB slot. I'm thinking that in every matchup packmaster is good in, NO will win as well so I'm leaning towards 4th NO main. Here's my list. Thoughts?
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/10740
Main Deck (60)
Creatures (31)
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Llanowar Elves
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
Spells (12)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
Lands (17)
1 Pendelhaven
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Choke
1 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Wurm
Is NO better than Progenitus?Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
There is a flaw in your logic: NO can't be fetched by FSZ, WRP can.
Not saying that we should play WRP over the 4th NO, but the logic is not only if NO is better in your hand than WRP. I personally play both 4 NO and 1 WRP.
Interesting...may I see your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Here you are:Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
4 Deathrite shaman
4 Quirion ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish visionary
4 Green sun zenith
4 Gaea's cradle
4 Glimpse of nature
3 nettle sentinel
3 heritage druid
4 Natural order
3 misty rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Dryad arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal force
1 Birchlore ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Fyndhorn elves
1 Taïga
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ruric Thar, the unbowed
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
61 cards
SB
1 Null Rod
2 Blood Moon
1 Progenitus
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt decay
15 cards
Oh interesting. Did you ever feel 4 NO was clunky?Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Yes. But almost every card in the deck, except GSZ, symbiot or DRS have feel clunky to me at one point or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
Admittedly, NO is probably the cards which feels clunky the more often, but it's also one of my most winning spells.
I think I lose more match longing for a NO than with several NO in hand. But my main is adaptated too: if hoof is not a win, I have Regal, Ruric and WRP which are all decent NO targets. So I can cast it aggressively or when I start loosing control of the game. More clearly, having 4 different NO-target makes NO a more adaptable spell, so a bit less clunky (even if it is still a 4-mana ritual which ask for an additional creature even if it gets countered).
Ah I see. How has blood moon been for you? I feel like if I wanted to go with mana denial, I'd run a set of 4Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Anyways, another question for these fine people. How good is Choke? I've been using it as a 1-of and it feels REALLY strong but somehow I feel like it's such a narrow card choice. When it's good, it's amazing. When it's not good, it sucks. Here's my current list. I still run the 4th NO in the side board because America meta doesn't have as many cages as Europe so NO -> proggy is still very good.
Creatures: 30
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
Spells: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Land: 19
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
Changes i'm considering: -1 Wren's Run Packmaster main, +1 Natural Order main. Then I can -1 Natural Order SB and +1 Worldspine Wurm/Ruric Thar. Another issue I've come in contact with is since I only have 5 SB discard spells, I lose to fast combo. I've been considering upping the discard count to 6 but i'm having trouble deciding what to take out. The needles, Null Rod, Library, and Choke just make Miracles tolerable. Perhaps Julian is on to something with the dropping of the 4th NO.......argh.
Current testing though: Jund Elves because Blood Moon is fun in theory. However in practice, I found that if it's in my opening hand and i'm on the play and I land a turn 2 moon, I win. But if I don't get the early moon, it's really clunky. Maybe i'm doing it wrong.
Creatures: 30
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth or a split between 1 hoof and 1 Regal Force
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Spells: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Land: 19
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 4 Blood Moon
What do you think to my build?
4 NO
4 GoN
4 GSZ
(12)
4 DrS
4 quirion r.
2 birchlore r.
4 wire wood s.
4 elvish v.
3 nettle s.
3 heritage d.
2 craterhoof b.
1 scavenging o.
1 reclamation sage
(28)
4 verdant c.
4 wooded f.
4 gaea's cradle
2 dryad arbor
2 bayou
4 forest
(20)
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 choke
1 progenitus
1 meek stone
1 null rod
1 p. needle
(15)
Tell me your verdict to my build.
Thanks... :)
Your MD is quite classical. with -1 forest / +1 fetch, it is the exact same 60 that Bobby Colegrove run to win his scg in the end of September.Quote:
Originally Posted by zzregz
(http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8245&d=247431&f=LE)
So I don't think any non-troll could tell you that it is full garbage.
Your SB is quite classical as well (btw, we're all tinkering with few slots, I don't think there is a lot of differences between elf lists). If you want advices/informations about it, it will be more useful for you if you give us your SB tables, and everybody can comment them then.
A few days now i'm trying a different style of main and side with quite good success for this current meta-game:
Main Deck 61
Lands
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
Sideboard 15
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Worldspine Wurm
Abrupt Decay buys enough time either the opposing deck is Delver or XXXBlade. I have noticed that if i decay the first opponent's delver. My opponent usually changes the decisions of the cards which will keep after a brainstorm or a ponder, less counterspells for us more options for him . Now if the deck is a stoneblade there is not more fear card than jitte and with decay main we could lead him for a lost round with a instantly deacy.
Hum, strange stuff @scglive, Elves vs D&T : Elves player concedes vs Magus of the Moat after realizing progenitus does nothing against it. But he still had plenty of time to start GsZing for DrS and grab the win that way :-(
That draw. Ha. Sometimes it's good to be good and have a touch of luck thrown in for good measure.
Proof, that just assembling a deck and having a good chance at winning due to the matchup constellation, is worth shit. I'm used to see people fuck up with storm horribly just because the line of winning a game is uncommon and people just think along common patterns. Not remembering about DRS and it's reach-ability is embarassingQuote:
Originally Posted by B4L4
I didn't see the game, were graveyards filled with enough spells?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But yea, I remember doing 12 with DRS in two turns (my turn, his turn) against someone for the win with energy field in play lol
Each of the Elves decks that made top 8 today have a Melira in the SB. Is Infect really that popular at these events to have a bad SB card for it?
edit: Also this is the 14th place Elves list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=74791
Some interesting choices to say the least.
I took a look at all the decks. I think Melira is good for the SCG metagame where there's a lot of infect but it seems like a waste of a slot if your meta is heavy in miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by shopshopshop
Anyways, it's weird to see how those elves lists run the full 4 Heritage Druid/4 Nettle Sentinel with the Reclamation Sage and Scavenging Ooze side board as opposed to whats more common in this thread where we run 3 Heritage Druid/3 Nettle Sentinel with the Sage and Ooze main deck. I guess their version is focused more on straight combo with all the bullets in the sideboard. I still like the 3/3 split with the Sage and Ooze main deck because a) it gives us a chance to beat grave yards, enchantments, and artifacts game 1 and b) it frees up side board slots since 15 slots is barely enough to begin with.
I played at the SCG open today and went 5-2-1, good for a 29th place finish. I ran a MD identical to Julian, and my SB wasn't too different - opted for the 4th NO and Prog because, as was just mentioned, that's still very strong in the American meta. I never hit infect and didn't see a ton of it around the tables. MD Ooze was delicious vs UR delver... once it's out of bolt range they basically just lose. Packmaster was a house against multiple decks running just Abrupt Decay as their removal. The deck felt very strong and resilient to hate. I fought through multiple cages, eplagues, golgari charms, pyroclasms, and meddling mages, never felt totally out of any game, and was still excited to play after finishing eight rounds.
My draw was to miracles. My two losses were to the mirror and a nicfit / scapeshift deck running main deck slaughter games. In that match I also drew 8 lands in a row over 3 turns. Dems da breaks.
I think we are very well positioned in the American / SCG metagame right now, as the delver decks have somewhat turned away from the stifle / mana denial builds like old RUG that we can struggle with. Now they are all heavily dependent on treasure cruise, which we can often race or prevent with DRS and untap effects or ooze. The delver deck that scares me the most at present is a Grixis / 4-color build that runs bolt, decay, and cabal therapy, and force / daze... I really struggled against that deck in testing but managed to dodge it today.