Printable View
Hi guys, I'm new to this deck. I'm running a fairly standard Junk/Rino version that I saw on these pages.
I play on MTGO. Here is the meta. As you can see the number one spot is Miracles with 11%. And I consistently lose to it.
Can anyone give me some advice? Any tips or ticks, any specific cards that are good to maindeck/sideboard. Sideboarding strategy. Any lists that are well tuned against miracles? Any good videos. Anything really.
What are your thoughts on the Miracles matchup?
Thanks.
Can you list your deck and sideboard?
In general the MU is 50/50 at best. The biggest thing to look out for is that you don't overcommit on the board. Also, when you get to GSZ for X = 5, don't. GSZ for X = 6 instead. CMC 6 = Counterbalance -> Terminus on top.
Also make sure that you are boarding out 4/4 Vets/Therapies. You should have 8 cards in your board specifically for Miracles -- by which I mean, several (2-3) cards "for" the matchup (extra planeswalkers or bombs, Tsunami, etc), and the rest (5-6) things that splash between multiple matchups: Krosan Grip, Golgari Charm, Pithing Needle, Engineered Plague sometimes, stuff like that.
Against Miracle, if we sided in Slaughter games, how about the naming orders? Their winning conditions are diversified now, so naming Mentor or EtA seems not effective.
The Junk version is a little bit unfavored in this MU i feel.
Here you need stuff like Slaughter Games, Combat Walkers, Gaddock Teeg, Thragtusk, Sigarda and Thrun. Some, not all.
Most important here is Jace. This is difficult to get rid of. SG and Walkers help here.
Trick is to scoop quick if you have the slightest feeling G1 ain't gonna work. Thus way you have more time for g2/3. Games a mega grindy. Otherwise, try to force a draw. Better a draw then a loss.
Play 1 threat at a time to nullify the effect of Terminus.
Pernicious deed is really important in the MU for Mentor and Entreat.
Be careful with your Veteran trigger. Speeding up their games is often more dangerous then you speeding up the yours.
Name Jace with 1st SG. When looking at their deck check what other threats he has. Based on how the game develops choose something with most effect for you to force a win, or prevent loosing.
Slow and steady wins the race. But know when to act.
I still test the Eldrazi menace, but i always read how this deck develop and how well you guys doing with Nic Fit!
I like the new rules, since it makes Garruk (always a fan of him), Huntmaster and Nissa far better with Deed. Even EE is good if you don't want to kill your own Token but need to get rid of a Delver. Speaking of EE you can also get enemy Nimble/Deathrites/Delver while profit from the kill of your own Explorers.
The good thing with Eldrazi is, that Matchups like Miracle and (more important for Nic Fit) Combo are affected. This will lead to some fairer Matchups, like BGx stuff (naturally do well vs Stompy) and you all know that any Nic Fit version is a beast once the meta is based on fair midrange decks.
In the past i played Punishing, Scape and BUG Pod for a while, but i still like the Junk/Rhino lists (so much toys!). If i would test the GBW stuff i would try the following build (based on Arianrhod latest list):
Land (22)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
Creature (16)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Shriekmaw
2x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer
Artifact (5)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment (5)
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Sylvan Library
Sorcery (9)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Instant (3)
3x Abrupt Decay
Sideboard (15)
1x Ajani Steadfast
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pithing Needle
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
I made some changes, basically i like to avoid 6 drops - sure all have a lot of power, but hands can be very clunky sometimes and the Junk-build has so many other bombs, manasinks etc. that i see it as a "win more" most of the time. So i basically lower the mana curve a bit. A tech from my games with sylvan plug: Shriekmaw + Meren, i think it will also work here and (bonus points) Eldrazi are legal targets too. Not sure if the list needs good old Tusk, but with Sylvan Library, Recurring Nightmare and Phyrexian Tower it seems good enough (unlike Rhino it kills Reality Smasher) and it is still a good card vs Miracle. I chose Library over Painful Truths since it comes down faster (turn 1 therapy, turn 2 zenith for explorer and 2 left mana etc.), maybe only one copy is enough with tops/deed.
Since Glissa, the Traitor found a home, besides EE i also like Batterskull as a annoying, resilient threat. Sideboard is a colourful mix from various cards. I like Rec.Sage over K.Grip because it is tutorable and while Miracle with Top can be a pain i think this pile of cards pack more than enough trouble for Miracle (and you still can Needle top if needed, thanks to Library).
I am still a fan of 2-3 Decay in any Nic Fit shell, because sometimes it isn't easy to set up Explorer-Ramp while your opponent rides an aggressive delver to victory supported with a bunch of disruption. Decay stops early threats to buy some time - once mana is developed Nic Fit should overpower most decks with various cards, key was always to survive long enough.
Your build has a couple of flaws. First off the manabase - lower the number of duals and up the number of fetches. This'll give you a higher number of initial mana of each colour across the board so you don't colourscrew yourself. Also plays very well with Top/Library. I'd probably also swap Karakas for a second Phyrexian Tower. T1 Veteran into T2 Tower blows almost everything out of the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Second - Glissa is in no way a reason to run an Engineered Explosives. People don't quite understand that yet, but they will in time. Glissa is there b/c of the keyword abilities she sports and nothing more. As I've said before, all else is flavor text. Looping Engineered Explosives is just wishful thinking, especially if you don't run Diabolic Intents (yes, plural). The same goes for that lone Shriekmaw without any way to tutor for it, by the way. Sure, swapping an Engineered Explosives in for a Deed is fine, but not b/c you're going to loop it.
Next there's Recurring Nightmare. It just doesn't have a place in this deck anymore. Meren does its job better. I'd replace it with a Siege Rhino. Same goes for that Thragtusk. Or you might want to throw in another DRS.
Last there's your removal suite. You can get away with running quite a small suite, but when wanting to do so it does need to have reach. If you don't, you open yourself up to getting blown out by random CMC > 3 creatures (i.e. the stuff that's as big or bigger than yours). The 3 AD are better of being PtEs. That way, at least you can answer Gurmag Angler/the Eldrazi deck/random big dudes when you don't have Glissa.
I mean, I ran EE because I wanted another sweeper and it happened to work with Glissa. EE is actually positioned very well in the metagame right now, especially since we can make 4 colors thanks to the sideboard Slaughter splash. I agree that specifically running it because of Glissa is incorrect thinking, but there's nothing wrong with running it and running Glissa -- and if that ever happens to come together, then hey, cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Shriekmaw with Meren is adorable. There's probably a very good Meren-focused version somewhere with multiple Tribe-Elders and Shriekmaws -- possibly BUG with Mulldrifter? I just use Meren as a tool, not as a centerpiece, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a build somewhere built to abuse her as much as possible.
Nightmare is still fine. There are still very few cards that rip open a board state at parity as much as Nightmare does, and Nightmare plays well WITH Meren. She's not easy to kill, but it can happen (Dismember in particular), and having a way to get her back is pretty good. I also really like what Nightmare does vs Liliana of the Veil: sometimes you get to pretend to be a reanimator deck, which is hilarious. Nightmare is the type of card that is a quiet roleplayer most of the time, and a really flashy hellion the rest of the time. While you will win some games because of it, it's much more often that you'll only use it once or twice for value, and that's fine.
Most significantly, Nightmare is the closest that Rhino lists get to having inevitability, which is a very important concept to Nic Fit in particular. The best Nic Fits historically have been those with combo finishes or some kind of inevitable gameplan that will eventually come together, given enough time, and WILL win the game. Scapewish, PFire a couple years ago (because metagame), the old Rector lists with Yosei and Kokusho (before Deathrite Shaman)...etc. Meren falls into the BUG camp -- she kind of wins the game, but she wins the game by drowning the opponent in value, and just drawing a bunch of cards isn't really going to effectively close a game. Setting up a Nightmare loop, on the other hand, will actually go about the business of signing a match slip. This is in no way meant to discredit Meren as a viable card -- I think she's quite good and not going anywhere -- but don't be so quick to dismiss Nightmare.
I usually name jtms and then terminus. Both best cards against us. Miracles is a headache to play against both because they take forever to do anything and most of the online pilot are douches. I hate the deck and wish it weren't a thing. I would say outside of glass cannon combo, its our worst matchup but im probably wrong because, like I said, I hate that deck and wish W: instant board wipe weren't a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokugawa
JTMS is definitely correct first name. From there, you need to look at their individual decklist and see what you can do to hurt them the most. Some people still only have Jace and Entreat for wincons, in which case you hit their Entreat. Sometimes they'll have like 1 Entreat 2 Mentor 1 Clique 1 Baneslayer and you can either take their Mentors (fastest clock) or their Terminuses (best interaction), depending on how you want to play the matchup; or their Force of Wills if you're on a combo version like Scape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Ricardio, how many K.Grips are you usually running? Hitting their Tops while also attacking their deck is the easiest way to play the matchup postboard. Deed/Decay in response to Therapy, Grip, Needle or Null Rod (depending on your own # of Tops) are the best ways to hurt them. If you're short other things to bring in, Surgicaling their Brainstorms (and Ponders, if they're running them) can really aggravate them, as well. Basically anything you can do to remove their deck manipulation is gas.
I agree with what Ricardio said about the miracles topic.
My only question is: do you guys bring in surgicals against them? I don't, but I want to know how you all board in this match up.
I've been naming Terminus first with Slaughter Games then Jace when the second casting comes along. My reason for this is that they only have Swords and Councils Judgement remaining as removal spells, their Jace becomes much weaker against our plethora of creatures. This forces them to play into the Entreat or Mentor plan, which is weak to our P Deeds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't, personally. I always make sure I have enough other things in my board that I'd rather bring in. For example, with my Rhino list from a page or two back, I would -4 Vet -4 Therapy, -2 Deluge; +2 Slaughter, +2 Needle, +2 Grip, +1 Elspeth, Sun's Champ, +1 Dromoka (was Wurmcoil), +1 Golgari Charm (was Sorin, got replaced), +1 Engineered Plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
That's an interesting line. How has it been working out for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
So far it has worked every time. A Slaughter games for Terminus has always won. I agree that hitting Jace because of its card advantage first is a better play, but nixing their sweeper will allow you to overpower them quite easily. The only time I'd name Jace first is if I know it's in their hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I side accordingly:
Out:
4 Veteran Explorers
4 Cabal Therapies
1 Scavenging Ooze
In:
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vraska the Unseen
Miracles players tend to board in RiP against us, so I don't think Surgical Extraction is that great of an idea.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't like the Thoughtseizes, but if that's what you've got, that's what you've got.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
The whole Junk sideboard looks like
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Glissa the Traitor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Slaughter Games
What would you suggest I change, card availability is not an issue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As far as I am concerned, I kinda like "surgical" against Miracle:
- It messes up with Snapcaster shenanigans
- It messes up with top + miracle.
RIP is definitely not guaranteed against us as it also shut down their Snap.
Just watch out and make the right call, but I would blindly side Surgical in against Miracle.
Grip is the biggest thing that's missing from your board. I'd probably shave a Thoughtseize and the Glissa for a pair of Grips, which would then put you to +2 Games, +1 Vraska, +1 G.Charm, +1 Teeg, +1 Sage, +2 Grip for -4 Vet -4 Therapy. You're not super happy to leave Deluge in, but it still does something against the Mentor versions, at least, and you can't ever really know for sure that any given Miracles player doesn't have Mentors in their list (or sideboard) somewhere, lurking to fist you from the shadows.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
I like Glissa in the main, personally -- she has the highest % to steal games vs Eldrazi in g1, before they tune their removal suite postboard and have 4 Dismembers. I also dislike Teeg in general (especially when your plan is to bring in Vraska and Slaughters), but at the end of the day, what works for me may not work for you. Warden loves Teeg. We had a conversation about Teeg this weekend, actually -- he basically played Teeg just as a pseudo 2x Time Walk vs Elves and then happily Deluged it away, when he could've Deluged for 1 to keep his Teeg and DRS, but leave them with DRS. I think part of my issue with Teeg is that I view him as a lock piece -- something like Nether Void, that when it's out, you can no longer interact with (mostly because you no longer want to). I just can't grok the concept of playing him as a temporary thing, knowing that you're playing him as a temporary thing, and being okay with that.
http://i.imgur.com/QwuiRbL.png
With this list against miracles.
out:
3 path
2 therapy
2 vet
in:
3 slaughter
3 seize
1 garruk
I like having 4 decay for all their stuff and I think some number of therapy and vet are necessary.
I agree, discard is good against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
One thing about your list: no pulse (in addition to vindicate)? I do always see a lot of JTMS usually and pulse+vindicate +3 tips to find them has been crucial in my experience
I'd easily play pulse over courser to be honest, giving away information is so bad. My 0.2c