[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

You misinterpreted what I said, but essentially, while Merfolk is one of the top decks in the format, it's not one of the first decks I would bring to smash a field of junk decks. It preys on "good" decks in the format, particularly the blue based ones that run non-basics which try to do broken things. I'm not sure why you would have brought up "more Zoo lists at the GP", because the GP is far from a scrub metagame, and from a cursory glance of the top finishers, you'll see it was a metagame hostile to Zoo but relatively weak to Merfolk.

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The reason I brought up Zoo was because you mentioned Zoo being "more broken" than Merfolk. Which I do not agree with. Nothing more, and I didn't mean to incite an argument.
While Folk wouldn't be my FIRST choice of decks to bring in a sea of jank, it would be my second. A strong CB variant (the king of jank deck killers), then Merfolk. For the reasons I listed in my previous post, and the fact that you point out, Folk is great against blue (suprise!).

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

I would agree with this but I think survival madness is really strong and it is tearing up the format :mad: Seems like a tough matchup for Merfolk.

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I also must agree: UG VengeSurvival is absurdly fast for an aggro deck. This is the only deck other than StormCombo that I keep in Spell Snare AND Side in Spell Pierce, just because a resolved survival is game over. The deck can fight through grave hate and stop your countermagic all while beating with flying Vengevines on t3-t4. It definitely is a force to be reckoned with.

JusT a random thought, but I wonder if Liliana's Caress plus just racing them might not be a good way for Us to deal with UG VengeVival. I'm gonna try to remember to test it on MWS the next time I get a quiet moment with m ly roommate's pc. Someone realky needs to port that shit to Mac osX already. ;)

JusT a random thought, but I wonder if Liliana's Caress plus just racing them might not be a good way for s to deal with UG VengeVival. I'm gonna try to remember to test it on MWS the next time I get a quiet moment with m ly roommate's pc. Someone realky needs to port that shit to Mac osX already. ;)

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I disagree with this. Merfolk will win a decent number of games against "casual or underdeveloped decks" just by nature of running much stronger cards than scrub decks, but it's not as good as something like combo or Zoo that runs a whole bunch of broken cards. Merfolk is a top tier deck in Legacy more because it is metagamed to beat other good (blue) decks, rather than because it's inherently broken.

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I agree. I played Mono U Merfolk in a somewhat undeveloped metagame (I'd say maybe 20-30% of the decks were top tier, the rest were kitchen table decks). I always did well there. Except that one time I faced Zoo, Goblins, Zoo, then Zoo for my four rounds there. That was bad. But even though Merfolk is a metagame deck, it's still a solid deck on its own.

Been having a lot of fun with Knighthoods sideboarded in the uw merfolk list recently. Since swords and paths remove from game, I think the best solution to UG madness is the white splash (see starcitygames Baltimore).


@DukeDemonKnight

Have you tried Bootcamp? You don't even have to wipe the harddrive these days to create another partition...

It's a relatively decent matchup though. You race fine with Lord of Atlantis.

One of their limitations is mana. Daze their Noble Hierachs. Forces and Spell Pierces on the Survival. On board Relic or Crypt throws a big wrench into their plan.

I was wondering if anyone had comments on or experience with the death and taxes matchup. It's becoming extremely popular online and is cropping up in my area. I don't like to see any cards the deck plays. I'm talking main board games here as I really don't have a sideboard plan vs this deck.

Aether Vial is an absolute must counter. It makes standstill horrible and makes stoneforge mystic uncounterable. Stoneforge Mystic fetching sword of fire and ice (and to a lesser extent jitte) and putting it into play uncounterably is typically game unless I have an overwhelming board presence.

Stoneforge Mystic is also a must counter, for similar reasons outline above.

Mother of Runes stalls or even stops early aggression.

Serra Avenger is beastly, as it can smash and block profitably unless you have more than one lord.

Flickwisp resets my Vials which is EXTREMELY annoying.

Their lands are immune to wasteland except for Karakas. Obviously no islandwalk going on.

Speaking of Karakas, I haven't had the displeasure of facing Mangara + Karakas combo but I doubt that it would be very pleasant.

Is the only answer going white splash for swords main and disenchants in the side? I think that would actually give me a chance, I'm interested in what people with experience in the matchup have to say. Right now my only thought on sideboard options for monoblue vs this deck is Threads of Disloyalty.

My meta game is starting to fill up with Zoo and Death and Taxes. I'm about to just spend the $40 or whatever to buy the core dredge cards and just switch to that. I also might just make CounterTop but its arguable if that will help me any. Ce la vie.

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Originally Posted by Sandwich

I was wondering if anyone had comments on or experience with the death and taxes matchup. It's becoming extremely popular online and is cropping up in my area. I don't like to see any cards the deck plays. I'm talking main board games here as I really don't have a sideboard plan vs this deck.

Aether Vial is an absolute must counter. It makes standstill horrible and makes stoneforge mystic uncounterable. Stoneforge Mystic fetching sword of fire and ice (and to a lesser extent jitte) and putting it into play uncounterably is typically game unless I have an overwhelming board presence.

Stoneforge Mystic is also a must counter, for similar reasons outline above.

Mother of Runes stalls or even stops early aggression.

Serra Avenger is beastly, as it can smash and block profitably unless you have more than one lord.

Flickwisp resets my Vials which is EXTREMELY annoying.

Their lands are immune to wasteland except for Karakas. Obviously no islandwalk going on.

Speaking of Karakas, I haven't had the displeasure of facing Mangara + Karakas combo but I doubt that it would be very pleasant.

Is the only answer going white splash for swords main and disenchants in the side? I think that would actually give me a chance, I'm interested in what people with experience in the matchup have to say. Right now my only thought on sideboard options for monoblue vs this deck is Threads of Disloyalty.

My meta game is starting to fill up with Zoo and Death and Taxes. I'm about to just spend the $40 or whatever to buy the core dredge cards and just switch to that. I also might just make CounterTop but its arguable if that will help me any. Ce la vie.

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If you're having trouble with this deck and it's seeing an increased amount of play in your meta, you might want to try splashing black instead of white. This gives you access to Smother and Massacre, while allowing you to also play Perish/Nature's Ruin for Zoo.

Massacre should take care of everything in the Death and Taxes deck, just make sure to land it at the correct time (i.e. have 2 lords in play and make sure you're playing around Swords) and Smother takes care of the Avengers. I would side out Vials in this matchup as well as Standstills and bring in the removal I mentioned above. Also, Kira doesn't completely take care of the Mangara combo but it helps significantly.

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Originally Posted by Sandwich

I was wondering if anyone had comments on or experience with the death and taxes matchup. It's becoming extremely popular online and is cropping up in my area. I don't like to see any cards the deck plays. I'm talking main board games here as I really don't have a sideboard plan vs this deck.

Aether Vial is an absolute must counter. It makes standstill horrible and makes stoneforge mystic uncounterable. Stoneforge Mystic fetching sword of fire and ice (and to a lesser extent jitte) and putting it into play uncounterably is typically game unless I have an overwhelming board presence.

Stoneforge Mystic is also a must counter, for similar reasons outline above.

Mother of Runes stalls or even stops early aggression.

Serra Avenger is beastly, as it can smash and block profitably unless you have more than one lord.

Flickwisp resets my Vials which is EXTREMELY annoying.

Their lands are immune to wasteland except for Karakas. Obviously no islandwalk going on.

Speaking of Karakas, I haven't had the displeasure of facing Mangara + Karakas combo but I doubt that it would be very pleasant.

Is the only answer going white splash for swords main and disenchants in the side? I think that would actually give me a chance, I'm interested in what people with experience in the matchup have to say. Right now my only thought on sideboard options for monoblue vs this deck is Threads of Disloyalty.

My meta game is starting to fill up with Zoo and Death and Taxes. I'm about to just spend the $40 or whatever to buy the core dredge cards and just switch to that. I also might just make CounterTop but its arguable if that will help me any. Ce la vie.

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Death and Taxes is a hard matchup for merfolk. I play DnT quite a bit and I've found that the build of merfolk I have the hardest time against is the 16 lord version, with 2-3 Kiras main and no Standstills. While DnT can still play around Kiras using stuff like Karakas, it slows them down significantly, especially if they don't have two removal spells in hand. The 16 lord build is also quite a bit better against Zoo as Kira protects your lords as you just crap a ton of them onto the field.

K, hows this for a "I can only afford one sea right now Ub build" lol


4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
5 Island

SB:
3 Massacre
2 Smother
3 Standstill
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Perish

I have a basic swamp in there in case my only sea gets wastelanded. I know it will probably end up screwing me somewhere down the road but for now I think it has to be in there.

I'm thinking of swapping the number of Massacre / Smothers.

If this doesn't work out I suppose 16 Lord MonoU would be somewhat fine?

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Originally Posted by Mana Drain

While Folk wouldn't be my FIRST choice of decks to bring in a sea of jank, it would be my second. A strong CB variant (the king of jank deck killers), then Merfolk.

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WHAT????

Counterbalance is good because people aren'y casting Avatar of Woe and Doubling Season. The best deck against jank is probably TES or some other combo deck.

Merfolk preys on blue, top tier decks, not jank.dec.

Please stop being retarded.

Now repeat after me: "I like to make useful posts."

-PR

@Merfolk vs. D+T: The match heavily favors D+T. But it is not unwinnable for Merfolk. You have to:

1. Never take out Aether Vial. Never. I am not exaggerating at all when I say that this matchup usually comes down to who can land and abuse Aether Vial the best. It ought to - that card is the focus of bother decks. JCrawl85 clearly has either no experience in this matchup or has not thought about the mechanics of it at all because it is really obvious.

2. The matchup is all about tempo and you are aggro. If D+T ever gets to the point that he is able to land and activate Mangara + Karakas even once, you have already lost the match in most cases. D+T is the slower deck so you have to keep him on the defensive. Warning though - some of the SBs pack Cataclysm, so you may hurt badly if you overextend into it. Side in your bounce (for monoblue). Try not to hold back blockers.

3. Coralhelm Commander is your go-to guy. D+T relies on its flying beaters enough that this guy can mess it all up. Unfortunately, they still have Flickerwisps to shrink him and a decent amount of removal of course. But he is the biggest flier on the field.

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Sandwich, you seem to understand the matchup well enough. I am afraid that there is little for you in monoblue. Creatures and artifacts are what you are facing and they are blue's soft spots. But I will say that Spell Pierce is hotter than you would think against a deck with 24-ish creatures. If you can keep Aether Vials out of the picture, you can counter the Mystics and/or equipment that is so hard to handle. And let your creatures deal with his straight up.

[QUOTE=Finn;490918]@Merfolk vs. D+T: The match heavily favors D+T. But it is not unwinnable for Merfolk. You have to:

1. Never take out Aether Vial. Never. I am not exaggerating at all when I say that this matchup usually comes down to who can land and abuse Aether Vial the best. It ought to - that card is the focus of bother decks. JCrawl85 clearly has either no experience in this matchup or has not thought about the mechanics of it at all because it is really obvious.
QUOTE]

That is somewhat of a harsh statement, considering I did think about this matchup. I was stating how I would handle this matchup, it is not set in stone of how to play. I also see he is not running Standstills maindeck and Kira's mainboard, as indicated by a decklist which was posted after my suggestion, which would change my sideboard plan as well.

Personally, I would play the tempo game in this matchup, i.e. make sure to Pierce their turn 1 Vial, land a couple lords, take care of creatures with Smother, and use Massacre as a game breaker. That is why I suggested what I did. He doesn't have to take my suggestions, and it's relatively pointless to just stay I am wrong and haven't thought about it.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

Agreed. i still cant believe tihs is a DTb. it sucks against anything that isnt combo or CB related. i am tired of playing against this shit and Swarnm shut it down. seriously, i have never lost a tourhament match to this deck ever playing anything that isnt combo. its so bad, .... cant believe this many idiots want to actually play it. but more power 2 u i guess, its cheap to build and beats combo ... woot .... u lose to qlmost anything that plays creatures since merolkf are awful.

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/Signed.

Creatures are terrible in Legacy. Although I want this deck to be good so I have some use for Spinal Villain.

@JCrawl, I actually would still keep Vial against DnT mainly because it allows for some tricks when they themselves are doing vial tricks. It's a tough matchup since Merfolks' answers to threats are either racing or being reactive. DnT forces Merfolks into a pro-active position, something the deck isn't strong with the exception of racing, but that leads to overextending into what DnT wants you to do. With Vial, you have more options to chose when to bring in your creatures and potentially alpha strike them if caugh unprepared.

Against DnT playing Landstill, Standstill is still a solid card. However I can see why you would want to cut this instead of creatures against them in an aggro-standstill deck.

I looked at Saito's list and I like it except for the greedy manabase (too many fetches, duals and few basics).

I was wondering.. In the SB he played 3 Tormod's Crypt. Wouldn't be a Crypt/Relic split be better? I know that this decks tends to tap out nut relic seems stronger and has multiple uses..

Jitte is really a strong card and really useful in the mirror, but against zoo wouldn't Kira be better? Against Zoo I don't think that Jitte will ever be equipped..

In his list there are no solutions to a landed Moat or Humility. Would you suggest to cut a Daze and another card for 2 MD Bounces? If yes what other card?

Thanks :smile:

You can't cut Daze because you're strictly tempo and it's the best tempo counter when it works. I also don't think running 2 MD bounce spells can be justified because of cards like Humility and Moat. Sure, they wreck us, but they are only singletons in one deck. If you want to play bounce then I think they need to be in the sideboard. That's where I play mine actually - 2 of them - Rushing River (I prefer it over E. Truth). IMO, River is stronger for the mono blue version because we don't play fetches and getting an extra island by the time we need to bounce something is not unlikely. Plus, guaranteed 2 for 1's are decent, I hear.

How is Rushing River a guaranteed 2-for-1? You lose two cards, they put two cards from board into their hand. On total card advantage, you've just 0-for-2'd them. If you meant RR is a versatile temporary answer then yes I agree.

Any suggestions against countertop decks/dreadstill ?

I'm thinking threads would shine here?

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Any suggestions against countertop decks/dreadstill ?

I'm thinking threads would shine here?

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Lord of Atlantis is pretty good here.

Really.