[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Have an amazing sideboard plan against every deck in the format while keeping the manacosts between 0 and 2.

Rough//tumble, pyroblast, ancient grudge, sulfur elemental, and lightning bolt: why pay twice as much when don't have too?

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Hm. Never thought of it. The fact that it saves Goyf/Delver from Decay is sweet, even at the cost of one life this ain't bad.
As a removal it is quite strange. It's nice that it can remove their blocker but in the long term it does very little, namely against DRS which they may replay immediatelly after their draw phase passes. I'm not sure if for this matter F/I ain't better - yes, it costs one mana more, but it kills DRS and "removes" any big blocker while cantripping. :rolleyes:
I consider dropping the single Snare and going for either 3x Forked Bolt or even 3x Chain Lightning. That random Snare does little, once in a pale moon it hits Goyf/Hymn and that's it. Otoh, playing additional burn might prove helpful, as it can remove DRS/MoR/elves/Delver or end the game when directed to dome.

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I used Vapor Snag to great effect a few months ago when Team America was a big deal. Snagging a Tombstalker the turn they swing with it is very fun. They look at their empty graveyard, look at the flying-5/5-8 CMC monstrosity in their hand, then sigh. It's a fantastic card in the right circumstances. For instance, at that same time, sneak and show was also very popular - and I hit a few Grisslebrands with it as well.

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Originally Posted by Pherion

I used Vapor Snag to great effect a few months ago when Team America was a big deal. Snagging a Tombstalker the turn they swing with it is very fun. They look at their empty graveyard, look at the flying-5/5-8 CMC monstrosity in their hand, then sigh. It's a fantastic card in the right circumstances. For instance, at that same time, sneak and show was also very popular - and I hit a few Grisslebrands with it as well.

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Thanks for an idea. I see that as long as my meta is mostly DRS and quite none Stalker, I should rather use Forked Bolt than anything else... except maybe for Probe.

Anybody have any experience with Winter Orb? Obviously, DRS is a problem, but if we assume we can kill or counter DRS, then it seems like a pretty great complement to the mana denial plan.

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Originally Posted by Eldamion

Nice discussion here.

The big question in my mind is: Is gitaxian probe now a must mainddeck card?

The last time I played RUG, I had 2 copies in my maindeck, I I was very happy with them.

They helped my to structure my next turn.
See what my opponent has in hand, what do I have to counter in which way, and finally draws me an extra card.

My opponents were never happy when I had a full view to thair hands.

Chris Pikula played 3 copies last weekend, so what are your thougts?

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Chris Pikula said he wants to add a 4th Gitaxian Probe in his Top 8 Profile: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._profiles.html

I've been playing 1-2 Probes these last few months. They've been awesome. I might want to go up to 3. I know some people will think this is blasphemous, but I like the idea of cutting 1 Stifle. Some people advocate playing RUG Delver with 0 Stifle (Drew Levin a while ago, wcm8 in this thread). I think playing 2-3 is better, because you can still get people with it, or represent it when you don't have it in hand.

I like Thought Scour against Deathrite Shaman, since it lets you thresh your mongooses in the face of an opposing DRS. Not sure if it is better than Probe, though...

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Anybody have any experience with Winter Orb? Obviously, DRS is a problem, but if we assume we can kill or counter DRS, then it seems like a pretty great complement to the mana denial plan.

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Some BUG Delver decks use it instead of sinkhole.

It could be fantastic. What would you put in your sideboard

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Anybody have any experience with Winter Orb? Obviously, DRS is a problem, but if we assume we can kill or counter DRS, then it seems like a pretty great complement to the mana denial plan.

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I bought three of them just to have them available, but never tried them yet. In a deck without non-land manasources this might be a bit dangerous, also I really can't tell how exactly I'd use them. I know that there are matchups where they might be helpful (e.g. Jund?), but I'm not sure if a 2-mana do.nothing card is the best I may sb in.

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

Chris Pikula said he wants to add a 4th Gitaxian Probe in his Top 8 Profile: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._profiles.html

I've been playing 1-2 Probes these last few months. They've been awesome. I might want to go up to 3. I know some people will think this is blasphemous, but I like the idea of cutting 1 Stifle. Some people advocate playing RUG Delver with 0 Stifle (Drew Levin a while ago, wcm8 in this thread). I think playing 2-3 is better, because you can still get people with it, or represent it when you don't have it in hand.

I like Thought Scour against Deathrite Shaman, since it lets you thresh your mongooses in the face of an opposing DRS. Not sure if it is better than Probe, though...

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I'd recommend cutting a spell pierce first before cutting stifle. I'm playing 5 burn spells and 2 pierces in my 3 probe build. It's been successful so far against DRS.

Why is gitaxian probe seeing so much love im not a fan of paying 2 life for information. How often do you actually cast it for mana.
In a list like mine what would you cut to play 2-3 of them

18 land

4 goyf
4 delver
4 goose

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
2 forked bolt
1 spell snare
3 spell pierce
4 force
4 daze
4 stifle

I've tested probe extensively. IMO it's a crutch - and ultimately should be avoided.
If you're playing properly you'll be ahead or at parity with cards anyway.

I think 7 "removal" spells is where this deck wants to be nowadays, thanks to DRS.
Research has shown me that outside of a turn 1 combo win, a turn 1 DRS on the play
is now the most powerful thing you can do in legacy. FOW worthy.
Due to this fact, I've decided that Spell Pierce isn't a maindeck inclusion anymore.

Outside of combo, the only real targets are removal, hand disruption, counterspells, walkers, and miracles.
Proper play can and should negate the first three, and daze/fow act as hedges against the latter two game 1.
StP/Bolt on your delver/goyf is bait - you should only be countering things that prevent you from winning
ie KotR, SFM, SCM, DRS, and a slew of other cards that Spell pierce misses, but Spell snare might hit.

I think many will disagree, but proper utilization of the mana denial suite,
coupled with the oft-debated spell snare, should get you there.

Remember, you never want to be tapping out - I think that might be where a lot of
debate is coming in. This isn't a "playstyle" issue: you need to be generating tempo
consistently, and constantly asking yourself who the beatdown is. Use your stifles
and wastelands wisely - the inherent "engine" of the deck is your decision tree.

Winter orb will hurt you more than help you. This deck wants 3 lands in play MAX.
1 trop, 1 Volc, 1 Fetch for shuffling away cards that are not relevant.

IMO, Probe is pretty darn good. The information you get from Probe tells you how to better utilize the cards in your hand. Basically, the card often generates up to a few virtual card's worth of advantage and it also helps fill your graveyard, which is pretty much right where this deck wants to be and is typically well worth the 2 life. You always have the option to pay a blue against decks where your life total is relevant. I would highly reccomend running at least 2.

Probe makes stifle a lot better. With probe, you can comfortably save your stifles for other purposes other than stifling fetches. You'll know when the mana dial plan will work or if you have to save it for an EE, Pernicious Deed, Jace, Lili etc activation. It helps with brainstorming as well. Knowing which cards to keep based on an opponents options usually speeds up the game. I just noticed that with probe, I've been ending a lot of games earlier than before. However, if you know that your meta is a bunch of tribal and aggro decks, you might be better off with the 6 to 7 burn build.

I wouldn't cut Pierces although I may see a reason for playing 2/2/2 split of Pierce/Snare/FB. Pierce is too good against Lili/Jace/Trini/Lingering Souls/anything else to not include it. Good luck dazing Liliana when they have active DRS, good luck Snaring her.
I still don't think that GP is worthy.

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Originally Posted by Scordata

StP/Bolt on your delver/goyf is bait - you should only be countering things that prevent you from winning [...]

Remember, you never want to be tapping out - I think that might be where a lot of
debate is coming in. This isn't a "playstyle" issue: you need to be generating tempo
consistently, and constantly asking yourself who the beatdown is. Use your stifles
and wastelands wisely - the inherent "engine" of the deck is your decision tree.

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Two theses I disagree with: Removal on your threats does keep this deck from winning, and that is especially due to its tempo nature. What use is snaring a Mystic, e.g., when they killed your guy? This is not a control deck.
The same goes for tapping out. How is not tapping out 'generating tempo'? Delaying threats in order to not tap out is the opposite of tempo. (I do agree though that there are some matchups were getting them with every Stifle is more important than deploying a threat – decks with a lot of removal come to mind – but not tapping out is not generally advisable.)

I'm glad to see there's an active discussion regarding the evolution of the deck vs the "metagame."

Here's the deal with probe: it's well agreed upon that legacy is often a battle of information.
Probe would SEEM to be the card we've been looking for - it's free (save two life), gets you
info, and replaces itself! How awesome is that?

Consider, however, the informational exchange you've just initiated - your opponent KNOWS
that you've just seen their hand. Do you think that might effect their strategy at all? I'd elaborate
here, but I wont insult your intelligence. Savvy players will react accordingly. In case it's not obvious,
drawing probe in multiples really sucks. I'd rather draw reach in multiples - long games can and will
happen; burn can and will seal the deal. This is where snaring their mystic is useful, for example.

As for the Pierce dilemma - you should be able to win through a Liliana, and if you're letting Jace
resolve it's for a few reasons. You either have a creature heavy hand, in which case you should
just kill them, or you've failed the deck. #SorryI'mNotSorry.

Lingering souls is a different story - if your meta is filled with snapcaster/souls decks, Pierce is
arguably an inclusion. I'd rather take the middle ground. Remember that Fire or Forked bolt
is just as effective here, with additional applications (2 at the dome/Walker/Creature that
you can kill after blockers.)

And if you're of the opinion that this deck can't be a control deck, we're going to have to agree
to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Scordata

I'm glad to see there's an active discussion regarding the evolution of the deck vs the "metagame."

Here's the deal with probe: it's well agreed upon that legacy is often a battle of information.
Probe would SEEM to be the card we've been looking for - it's free (save two life), gets you
info, and replaces itself! How awesome is that?

Consider, however, the informational exchange you've just initiated - your opponent KNOWS
that you've just seen their hand. Do you think that might effect their strategy at all? I'd elaborate
here, but I wont insult your intelligence. Savvy players will react accordingly. In case it's not obvious,
drawing probe in multiples really sucks. I'd rather draw reach in multiples - long games can and will
happen; burn can and will seal the deal. This is where snaring their mystic is useful, for example.

As for the Pierce dilemma - you should be able to win through a Liliana, and if you're letting Jace
resolve it's for a few reasons. You either have a creature heavy hand, in which case you should
just kill them, or you've failed the deck. #SorryI'mNotSorry.

Lingering souls is a different story - if your meta is filled with snapcaster/souls decks, Pierce is
arguably an inclusion. I'd rather take the middle ground. Remember that Fire or Forked bolt
is just as effective here, with additional applications (2 at the dome/Walker/Creature that
you can kill after blockers.)

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Well, I do agree on Probe idea, although I'm a bit lazy to evaluate the "now they know that now we know" part. At least I'll repeat myself: there's a finite number of cantrips a particular deck may play and imho this number is 8 for Thresh.

You pretty often just can't win through Liliana, unless it's some kind of Innistrad draft deck remains... She is extremely versatile and it's a crad that looks like designed to beat RUG - we don't play enough creatures to ignore the -2 ability, her +1 is very annoying when playing a deck without any CA. It's played in decks that are capable of pretty nasty plays and moreover decks that pack enough removal, DRS and ground walls to blank Goyfs, so your main ways of victory are fast Delver damage followed by Mongoose grinds once the ground clears... and unfortunately Lili can kill the latter. Also, there are other spells than just Lili that deserve Pierce, e.g. AdN into I-win-now.
Firing JTMS/Lili is awful, awful. Especially if they start with their + abilities. Also, isn't it better to not let the spell resolve at all, rather than to try to ping the PW for 2 that maybe don't even destroy it?

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Originally Posted by Scordata

And if you're of the opinion that this deck can't be a control deck, we're going to have to agree
to disagree.

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Sadly, this makes no sense to me. :really: Are you arguing this deck can't be control? Then I really disagree. See all those control cards we play, e.g. Spell Pierce.

I took Canadian Threshold for four rounds of swiss in our lgs.


Qty Name
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental


A small sidenote: I just looked up pithing needle in google. Pfff... bleh.:cry:


There was a big tournament in our city on weekend, so I was afraid that the lgs will be full of tourists. I was also not really thrilled to listen to all the usual stuff linked to the tournamet, like who did what to whom and who bought this and that. Fortunately all stories were told before I came and the four tourists that occupied one table weren't playing the tournament (lucky me, I dislike to speak American). They were drafting and in fact left pretty soon after they bought a display of MMA.


Round 1, Kay, UGB
We started a bit late, as the FWBs were buying the display and had some trouble to decide on the edition. Nevermind.
g1: I made a mistake of Dazing DRS though I had Bolt, so his Goyf resolved. My three mongeese were beating while the Goyf attacked my life total. Kay wasted my sole red, than he hymned away my two Bolts and finished on 5 life with me having the named three ferrets, a Forked Bolt in hand, road open for one creature but no red for the burn.
sb: in 2x Rough/Tumble, 3x Submerge, 2x Pithing Needle, 1x Ancient Grudge, out 2-4x Force of Will, 4x Daze. I kept some FoWs against Liliana and I'm not sure on Snare, maybe I kept it because of Hymn. Definitely not sure here.
g2: Kay had triple DRS which never did a thing cause Needle is great. Otoh, he resolved Eng. Plague naming Mongoose - btw, I really thought they were re-raced to ferret, but w/e -, at least I was fast enogh to build threshold in resp to it, so I had a 2/2 shroud dude. On my 14 or 12 life he EOT decayed the Needle, to which I responded by bolting one DRS so that they don't take me out of game. On his turn he made this and that, attacked with a manland that I promptly Bolted and passed right into the Rough. I drew Mongoose and then yet another one and won.
sb: no changes... I think.
g3: Kay started with DRS and Stryx. I double Stifled his fetchland activation, then Bolted DRS and left him with no mana source. I played Goose, begrudged Stryx, wasted two of his lands, flipped two Delvers (one get hit by Disfigure), had nothing to stop his Ancestral, cast a Goyf, Submerged his own Goyf and won.
1-0


Round 2, Tee, Elves!
g1: Tee mulled to four and conceded after Fok Bolt took care of his Birchlore and Quirion Rangers.
sb: 2x Rough/Tumble, 3x Submerge, 2x Needle, out Spell Snare, 2x Daze, 4x Mongoose
g2: Bolt on his DRS made Tee not really happy. He then played Symbiote and something more. I played two Delvers, then on my next upkeep I brainstormed, drawing land, land... Rough/Tumble. Revealed the Rough, flipped Delvers, played Rough. (Too soon maybe.) He tried to get back into play with a Heritage Druid or two, but I had Bolt and Delvers finished the game really fast.
2-0


Round 2, Dee, S&T
Pretty stupid games, I dare to say...:
g1: I flipped Delver quite fast, played some cantrips, stifled fetch, killed a Tomb and won the game during which my opponents' most memorable spell was a random cantrip.
sb: in 2x Pyroblast, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Grudge, 1x KGrip, 1X Sulfur Emental, out removal. (He has a habit of taking Leyline against Bolts, so...)
g2: Dee was stuck on one land for a few turns while I flipped the fly with a Grip. Then I wasted his Tomb to which he responded with Wish. I BSed and Dazed, but made a mistake of keeping Goyf instead of one of the fetches. then I shuffled away my third land and was one mana short of Grip when I needed it. Stupid, stupid Bed Decks Palyer... :frown:
g3: I attacked with Mongoose and got him to 14 life when he played Dream Halls. A monstrous battle for stack domination happened, figuring some cantrips, PoN, Flusterstorm or two and ultimately triple Daze leaving him with an empty hand and Halls. I drew and played Delver, managed to even flip it, but on his two consecutive turns he drew PoN and EtI which was sadly enough to win due to the named D. Halls. Sadface.
2-1
After the game was over he asked me if I kept Stifles in. I said "no, I took Pyroclasm, obv" and then I was informed it does nothing against Maniac kill. One may learn something new...


Round 4, Jee, Jund
Another pair of sick games.
g1: I got a fast Delver, Dazed and Fowed two Hymns, then I 2x Wasted Jee's lands keeping her of green. My three Bolts were enough to kill a Confidant... and his owner a bit later.
sb: 2x R/T, 3x Submerge, 2x Needle, out all Dazes, 2x FoW.
g2: It was all like fetch-Stifle, dual-Waste, Confidant-Bolt, 2x Delver, Mongoose. Jee was stuck on Badland and Waste, at least she got herself a DRS. But she needed to fetch Badland because of my Submerge and was very limited. Her PFire was double Pierced, which forced her to tap DRS to pay the mana. On upkeep I revealed BS and flipped the second Delver, played BS which threshedthe Mongoose and she conceeded on 3 life.
3-1


For my efforts I won two Surg. Extractions and one pack of Perfect Fits.

On deck: I wouldn't change a thing, except maybe for the Sulfur Elemental that bears no weight against non-white meta.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Well, I do agree on Probe idea, although I'm a bit lazy to evaluate the "now they know that now we know" part. At least I'll repeat myself: there's a finite number of cantrips a particular deck may play and imho this number is 8 for Thresh.

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I'll evaluate the 'now they know that now we know' part for you. I do understand it but I don't agree with it because it also works the other way around. For example; Hmm this guy probes me, sees I have liliana in my hand which I can play turn two because of my turn one DRS, yet he still play's a turn two Goyf. He must have daze/force. Better not play lilly.. Same psychology, just the other way around. I really do like probe because I agree with what cheerios said. Probe, among other things, makes stifle a lot better because you know whether or not you need to keep stifle up. This is a tempo and a control deck, maybe the best word to describe Rug delver is as a 'pressure' deck. You either play tempo by putting tempo in play or you play control by keeping mana up. Daze and Force try and help you do both, but in essence Probe helps you make the right decision. But probe does more than that.
Probe also puts a sorcery card in your gy and lets another card take its place in your hand for two life. Seeing how you are the aggressor those two life are allmost neglitable. In my opinion Nimble Moongoose is an allstar in this deck and to keep pressure on your opponent hitting threshold as fast as possible is really important. Next to that it's also another sorcery so it makes sure Goyf is likely at least a 3/4. I run three probes myself and I really like them especially for the free filling of your gy part. Don't forget that it's also a pretty safe card to run.. It's better having it turn one or two but it doesn't matter much pulling it turn six!

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

You pretty often just can't win through Liliana, unless it's some kind of Innistrad draft deck remains... She is extremely versatile and it's a crad that looks like designed to beat RUG - we don't play enough creatures to ignore the -2 ability, her +1 is very annoying when playing a deck without any CA. It's played in decks that are capable of pretty nasty plays and moreover decks that pack enough removal, DRS and ground walls to blank Goyfs, so your main ways of victory are fast Delver damage followed by Mongoose grinds once the ground clears... and unfortunately Lili can kill the latter. Also, there are other spells than just Lili that deserve Pierce, e.g. AdN into I-win-now.
Firing JTMS/Lili is awful, awful. Especially if they start with their + abilities. Also, isn't it better to not let the spell resolve at all, rather than to try to ping the PW for 2 that maybe don't even destroy it?

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Yes, Liliana is a pretty problematic card against this deck, especially in a Shardless Bug deck.. It's just a deck where you need to find enough answers and they need to draw blanks, otherwise you're screwed. It's a deck where every single card they play is bad for us and needs to be answered.. Simply put, Shardless Bug is a bad matchup where you need a bit of luck..

Well written, Qtc!

I still can't force myself to play the Probe. If only there'd be a bit more room, but right now I really want every Bolt possible.

I know this is just a preposterous idea, but I hope they unban mental misstep.

Why? How is it relevant to this deck (other then another free counter). And it won't be unbanned, they broke the game once