[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

If he drops Omniscience from SnT, then Counfusion will trigger twice. Once the 1st one resolve, the snd one fizzle due to ack of legal targets. If he Stifles one trigger, then the other one resolves, and you get Omnitell. He needs 2 Stifles to keep Omniscience. (and both enchatments come into the battlefiels troguh SnT, not "in response" of anything).
If he drops Emrakul or Grizzlebrand, and you drop Confusion in the Ranks, you can Vial in any goblin, or cast any goblin in your turn, to steal his guy, and then just profit from it. He can Stifle the trigger for 1 goblin, but normally you have more than 1 to play/Vial, or the 1 you have is Mogg Warmarchall, that dodges Stifle by himself.

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Are you sure this is correct regarding Omniscience & Confusion? My understanding was as follows:

1) Active Player: Show and Tell
2) <both players choose and then reveal cards, lets say Omniscience & Confusion in the Ranks>
3) Confusion of the Ranks triggers twice. Active players triggers go on the stack 1st. So Omni trigger on stack, then Confusion trigger.
4) Confusion trigger resolves first. That permanent's controller (say the Goblins player) chooses Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
5) Omni trigger then resolves. It's controller (now the Goblins player) has to resolve the trigger, and has to legally target Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
6) TL, DR; permanents reverted back to their owners.

From there on, if someone plays a new creature etc., then normal swap will occur. But Confusion doesn't 'steal' Omniscience off a Show and Tell (it would if you hard cast the Confusion).

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Originally Posted by TheSleeper

Are you sure this is correct regarding Omniscience & Confusion? My understanding was as follows:

1) Active Player: Show and Tell
2) <both players choose and then reveal cards, lets say Omniscience & Confusion in the Ranks>
3) Confusion of the Ranks triggers twice. Active players triggers go on the stack 1st. So Omni trigger on stack, then Confusion trigger.
4) Confusion trigger resolves first. That permanent's controller (say the Goblins player) chooses Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
5) Omni trigger then resolves. It's controller (now the Goblins player) has to resolve the trigger, and has to legally target Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
6) TL, DR; permanents reverted back to their owners.

From there on, if someone plays a new creature etc., then normal swap will occur. But Confusion doesn't 'steal' Omniscience off a Show and Tell (it would if you hard cast the Confusion).

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Quoted from another thread on the source:

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Originally Posted by WarioMCP

Confusion in the ranks triggers for itself when it enters the battlefield. If your Know and Tell opponent casts Show and Tell and you put in Confusion and he puts in Omniscience, two triggered abilities go on the stack, one for Omniscience entering and one for Confusion entering. Both are on the battlefield and legal targets for each other. The trigger and exchange is also mandatory. Assuming they are the only enchantments on the battlefield the triggered abilities must target the other enchantment.

Now, the targeting restriction for the trigger is "target permanent another player controls that shares a card type with it." This means that no matter whose turn it is, if one of the two triggers resolves, the other will no longer have a legal target (since your opponent now controls Confusion in the Ranks and not "another player") and will fizzle.

If one OR BOTH of the triggers resolves you get Omniscience. The true value of this card is that your opponent needs two Stifle/Trickbind effects to beat it. Also, if you have any creature in play and they put in Griselbrand or Emrakul instead of Omniscience, they still have to Stifle/Trickbind the trigger or be forced to give you their creature (they still get to draw the cards from Griselbrand, but the same is true for Angel of Despair and Oblivion Ring). It has the same weakness as the current answers but with the added bonus of just trumping the most popular of the three options Know and Tell has when they cast Show and Tell (Omniscience, Emrakul, or Griselbrand). Even if they trickbind your trigger on an Emrakul/Griselbrand play, any creature you resolve becomes a Gilded Drake.

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Greetings Mindlash

Edit: I hope I get it right, but this is how I do unterstand it:

Player A plays SnT
Player A + B reveal their choices
Player A has Omniscience targetting Confusion going on the stack (only legal target)
Player B has Confusion targetting Omniscience going on the stack (only legal target)
Player B's trigger resolves exchanging Confusion for Omniscience
Player A's trigger tries to resolves put fizzles because Confusion is no longer a legal target (it is now owned by you and not by another player)
Player A passes the turn
Player B delivers a brand of rape normally not available anymore :-P

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Furthermore I will test RiP vs Leyline vs Relic against Dredge, Reanimator and Canadian :)

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Waiting to read your conclusions.
If RiP is all that jazz, I may end up switching to Rw in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Welcome and congrats LeoCop! Quit apologizing for your English. It's much better than my Italian :wink:

Be wary of mulliganing into oblivion. Goblins can comfortably mull to 5. After that you're looking at an automatic game loss (as you experienced).

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I understand that mulliganing to less than 5 is probably an auto-lose. I did it only because i thought i had surely lost without the sideboard cards, but unfortunately i was wrong. Aniway against show and tell you can try to mull to less than five because if you get one single angel of despair or confusion in the ranks you have great probabilities to win.

I would also know some opinions about serum Powder in the sideboard. Do anyone think it is a good option or I should simply replace them with other cards ?
And do you think is better to focus against unfair matchups in the sideboard or to do a generic side with answers also to aggro and control decks ?

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

I would also know some opinions about serum Powder in the sideboard. Do anyone think it is a good option or I should simply replace them with other cards ?

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I think is good, but would like to hear from people that playtested more than me.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

And do you think is better to focus against unfair matchups in the sideboard or to do a generic side with answers also to aggro and control decks ?

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Usually goblins SB consist of 3 Kinesis (creature MU and general utility), 2-3 others (artifact-enchantament hate, Sharpshooter), and the rest, 9-10 card, are for unfair MUs (Reanimator, Dredge, all kinds of Storm, SnT, others). Sometimes you can use generic, but there are people how don't like it, going for a more streamlined SB (like, 4 CotV, 4 LotV, 3 Kinesis, 1 Shoter, 3 Pyroblast). It all depends on what you expect to play against.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

I understand that mulliganing to less than 5 is probably an auto-lose. I did it only because i thought i had surely lost without the sideboard cards, but unfortunately i was wrong. Aniway against show and tell you can try to mull to less than five because if you get one single angel of despair or confusion in the ranks you have great probabilities to win.

I would also know some opinions about serum Powder in the sideboard. Do anyone think it is a good option or I should simply replace them with other cards ?
And do you think is better to focus against unfair matchups in the sideboard or to do a generic side with answers also to aggro and control decks ?

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Serum Powder seems a little loose to me. It's probably good against belcher and storm but I don't like the idea of removing your hand from the game as you might nug some of your silver bullets that are important in a lot of matchups. As far as SBing goes, I usually am one to just cross my fingers and hope I don't face storm or belcher. I like having SB hate for SnT decks as you have a much better chance of beating them then the aforementioned 2 decks.

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Originally Posted by B-rad

Serum Powder seems a little loose to me. It's probably good against belcher and storm but I don't like the idea of removing your hand from the game as you might nug some of your silver bullets that are important in a lot of matchups. As far as SBing goes, I usually am one to just cross my fingers and hope I don't face storm or belcher. I like having SB hate for SnT decks as you have a much better chance of beating them then the aforementioned 2 decks.

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Normally I'd agree with you that Serum Powder isn't a great SB card, but you gotta look at it the context of the SB. He is running....

Side Deck:
Artifacts(5):
- 3 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Serum Powder
Enchantments(6):
- 4 Leyline of the Void
- 2 Confusion in the Ranks
Creatures(4):
- 1 Goblin Tinkerer
- 1 Stingscourger
- 2 Angel of Despair

If his SB was running Pyrokinesis, Relic of progenitus, and REB then Serum Powder would pretty much suck. He would be losing potentially necessary cards in order to draw marginal but flexible sideboard cards. But he's not running medium-powered, flexible SB cards. He's running hosers for specific MUs. He doesn't really care what cards he loses because he just wants to get to a Chalice, Leyline, or SnT card. Since that's the case, Serum Powder seems pretty awesome.

I can't say I disagree with his strategy too much either. I've always felt that if a Goblins MD is built to beat fair decks then the sideboard can work on the Unfair MUs in the Meta. Mav, Thresh, Miracle, Stoneblade, BUG Control: none of these need much SB space or any. Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, SnT: These are the ones you Need hate to beat consistently.

I think I'd actually like his SB to look more like this...

- 3 Chalice of the Void
- 3 Serum Powder
- 3 Leyline of the Void
- 1 Confusion in the Ranks
- 2 Angel of Despair
- 1 Goblin Tinkerer
- 1 Stingscourger
- 1 Pyrokinesis

This gives him 6 SB cards against each of the bad MUs: Dredge/Storm/SnT; 3 hate cards- 3 Serum Powder. And it gives him a Pyro against creature heavy MUs.

I think I need to play around with SP sideboards, maybe do a little goldfishing tonight just to see how SP affects mulligans and how the game plays out from there.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I think I need to play around with SP sideboards, maybe do a little goldfishing tonight just to see how SP affects mulligans and how the game plays out from there.

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I'd like to see the results of that too.

Meanwhile, back on Omnitell.
Tested 35 games today with a Rw list, with 3 Thalia MD, having 2 Confusion, 1 O.Ring, 1 Serum Powder, 2 Seal of Cleansing.
Won 11, losing 5 on the play. Won 10, losing 9 on the draw. This might be a little more accurate than my last sample.
Serum Powder was great in 3 games, leading my mull to a win, while a mull into a loss, and me keeping 2 hands with it, and drawing it twice midgames, being irrelevant.
Seal of Cleansing won with the ETB trick 5 games. Was countered twice and Stifled twice (resulting into a loss).
O.Ring won 4 games, being Stifle once (resulting into a loss).
Confusion this time showed up 8 times, and I lost 3 games after it landed (as opposed to 0 on my last testing), once to double stifle, once to opponent getting Emrakul and me being unable to cast any creature, once to the trigger getting stifled my turn, and me being anihhilated on the next one.
Thalia was awesome, and helped in tons of matchs. Couldn't really count because, sometimes I won because of her alon, sometimes with Port helping, sometimes with Waste, sometimes it just bought me 1-2 turns and I drew a O.Ring or Confusion.
Rishadan Port was also great, winning/helping in 5+games (ran 2 on the list)
Karakas (use 1) was usefull once, to bounce Thalia in response to Pyroclasm.
Stingscourger won me 1 game.
1 Game won by purely racing (he managed to SnT Grizzle T3, but was too late)
1 Game was won without hate, but with double Port + Waste.
I mulled 23 times, opponent mulled 12.


The results were a little better with this list. Thalia being additional hate is great.
Still, you're almost never going to win without any kind of hate. Don't try to race them. They are faster. And Pyroclasm may fuck you up too.
Jrw experimental SB might be a good place to start further testing.

Tired as hell from doing all this now. Good night.

@ScatmanX
Thank you for the excellent insight.

Questions :
What Seal of Cleansing ETB trick? Do you mean in conjunction with CitR? Because Seal doesn't have an ETB trigger...

Should Seal of Cleansing just be O-Ring 2-3?

Or with orings trigger on the stack. I imagine seal also helps against stoneblade too

I talked with Scatman last night and he told me that the Seal is the following one:
Play Seal turn two. When SNT is played bring a goblin with ETB trigger in play. Then the trigger will go on stack. You can now sacrifice Seal and Omiscience is destoyed before the player can play spells with it :)

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Originally Posted by Sasan

I talked with Scatman last night and he told me that the Seal is the following one:
Play Seal turn two. When SNT is played bring a goblin with ETB trigger in play. Then the trigger will go on stack. You can now sacrifice Seal and Omiscience is destoyed before the player can play spells with it :)

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I dig it. Seal seems like a pretty natural fit for a goblins sb. It's proactive, can be activated for free, kills what we need it to (moat, dueling grounds, BS, jitte, omni, ensnaring bridge, top).

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Originally Posted by Sasan

I talked with Scatman last night and he told me that the Seal is the following one:
Play Seal turn two. When SNT is played bring a goblin with ETB trigger in play. Then the trigger will go on stack. You can now sacrifice Seal and Omiscience is destoyed before the player can play spells with it :)

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Thanks.

@Jon: I'm testing Seal because:
- Same color as Thalia and RiP
- Is a 2cc card, which is great for the curve and faster than the 3cc options, specially if you take Thalia in consideration.
- Works instant speed without needing to hold your mana up.
- Can be deployed earlier than Conterbalance.
- Can prevent a Top flip that woul Miracle something on your turn.
- If on the battlefield, can destroy an Omniscience from SnT if you SnT any creature with a ETB ability (as fast as your T2)
- You can hold it in your hand if you don't want the opponent to find out you're playing it.
Still, just testing.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Thanks.

@Barbed Blightning: I'm testing Seal because:
- Same color as Thalia and RiP
- Is a 2cc card, which is great for the curve and faster than the 3cc options, specially if you take Thalia in consideration.
- Works instant speed without needing to hold your mana up.
- Can be deployed earlier than Conterbalance.
- Can prevent a Top flip that woul Miracle something on your turn.
- If on the battlefield, can destroy an Omniscience from SnT if you SnT any creature with a ETB ability (as fast as your T2)
- You can hold it in your hand if you don't want the opponent to find out you're playing it.
Still, just testing.

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seal of cleansing seems an interesting out for engineered plague, as well, even if half your board is already plagued away.

about serums powder: I'm running some numbers on it, and while I don't have some results to show so far, it does seem to increase the odds of finding whatever it is you need very much, the problem would be opening space for it, I guess.

tonight I'll finally make my debut on legacy tourneys, after months of readings, testings and theories... my sideboard is far from ideal, and I don't have the playset of ports I wished for, but anyway, shall be fun. will let you know.

@ ScatmanX:

A couple of pages ago I asked Gobolord if Disenchant would be valid option with a white splash. I didn't get any reply on that on, but you seemed to be happy with SoC. Would you consider Disenchant over SoC? I haven't encountered any Counterbalance-based decks in the Netherlands for a long time... Just question, for I would like to keep the element of surprise.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

@ ScatmanX:

A couple of pages ago I asked Gobolord if Disenchant would be valid option with a white splash. I didn't get any reply on that on, but you seemed to be happy with SoC. Would you consider Disenchant over SoC? I haven't encountered any Counterbalance-based decks in the Netherlands for a long time... Just question, for I would like to keep the element of surprise.

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Disenchant do give you the element of surprise, but I don't like the fact that you need to keep 1W open to have that surprise. If you plan on casting it your turn, Seal do the same thing. Also Seal is more resilient to discard, and I tend to find quite a lot of Esper/BW Stoneforge around here. I also like Seal being a 2cc permanent too, because it helps on your curve. On the other hand, Seal can be Vindicated or Pernicious Deeded or Stifled or Exploded, whereas Disenchant cannot. Still, I guess that, for me, what makes Seal a little better, is the interaction with Omniscience, and being a 2cc permanent. Disenchant, as K.Grip, Ancient Grudge and others, are all options to consider.

Thanks for the reply :-)

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Originally Posted by Cleston

seal of cleansing seems an interesting out for engineered plague, as well, even if half your board is already plagued away.

about serums powder: I'm running some numbers on it, and while I don't have some results to show so far, it does seem to increase the odds of finding whatever it is you need very much, the problem would be opening space for it, I guess.

tonight I'll finally make my debut on legacy tourneys, after months of readings, testings and theories... my sideboard is far from ideal, and I don't have the playset of ports I wished for, but anyway, shall be fun. will let you know.

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Rumble, young Man, rumble.

@Scatman: Can you please Test Seal vs Eper Blade? Would love an analysis from you :-)

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Originally Posted by Sasan

@Scatman: Can you please Test Seal vs Eper Blade? Would love an analysis from you :-)

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Next week. This weekend want to try Rw version vs Reanimator, Dredge and, if have time, maybe Maverick.