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+1 for Curio emblem.
Given that we had Energy Field and Tabernacle legal, maybe Empty and Bridge and Chancellor weren't that dangerous after all...
Swamp doesn't take up depletion counters. I think Reeplcheep is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Reeplcheep also loses vs maxx! with Bitterblossom
So close to the sweep though.
Well, there's a slight difference where the Vial will dominate all choices but the Curio might not even get used that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
If someone decides to spend a card on removing it, he'll be a card short against decks that just use 4 cards to win normally.
I for one thought it would be interesting to keep the Curio removable.
But if enough people prefer it to be an emblem, I can change it.
I'll count votes.
While trying (and failing) to come up with a deck for supersize round. I found myself wishing my creatures had haste. Should we consider having round in a future season of deviant legacy where all creatures have haste (and maybe even flash)?
Either one of Windborn Muse/Elspeth by itself wins the matchup, no need to ever cast the other card. Seems simple enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
As for my matchup with maxx!, on my play Ratchet Bomb deals with Bitterblossom so that part's simple. On the draw is trickier, because Duress takes Ratchet Bomb, and I can't go aggro fast enough to race Bitterblossom. I should lose there.
Yes I am incorrect here, the faeries are created after the beginning of upkeep.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
Elspeth I think I beat. However, to kill the city I need to play urborg, which saves your farm and thus your muse.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Yup, thanks. I was totally missing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I've been wondering if we should discuss banning Fastbond for the Bouncy Castle round because it's so broken, and only just thought to check whether it's naturally banned. It is, but I have no idea why. Don't you need too many cards to make it work? It doesn't really matter though. I don't think it has a fair application, and we do want it banned for Bouncy round regardless.
Fastbond was probably banned because of the original Legacy B&R and kept there because of things like Asthereal's Supercat deckQuote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Savannah, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, Selesnya Sanctuary
Turn 2 kill.
A few turn 2 combos like Dark Depths, Shelldock Isle and Blazing Shoal Infect made it on our Legacy banlist from older seasons, before more of you joined and showed us we were missing even more broken turn 1 combos. Because of this imbalance, maybe we need to consider unbanning some things that seemed too overpowered before. Or maybe we just leave them banned because they can only be used for degeneracy anyway.
Lets see how my low effort token generation goes!
1. Asthereal (TO): Remote Farm, City of Traitors, Windborn Muse, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2. Reeplcheep: Rain of Tears , Inkmoth Nexus, Urborg, Yomb of Yawgmoth , Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
You're able to Rain of Tears my Rot Farm on your turn 3, leaving me able to keep only a single token alive through Tabernacle. I don't see a way to race Inkmoth here. LL
0-6
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Lotus Petal, Kuldotha Rebirth, Feldon's Cane
You make 3 4/4s on your turn 1 and another 3 4/4s on your turn 4. Thats pretty quick, don't see that I can chump block my way into enough time. LL
0-6
4. alphastryk: Khalni Garden, Golgari Rot Farm, Awakening Zone, Sprout Swarm
This is me
5. dte: City of traitors, Lotus petal, Energy field, Scalding tongs
Can't beat Energy Field. LL
0-6
6. Tylert: Great furnace, Kuldotha rebirth, Unmask, Force of despair
You make 3 4/4s on turn 1, and can Unmask whichever of my token makers does more work. Garden slows you down 1 turn but that's not enough. LL
0-6
7. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Devoted Druid, Hornet Queen
I'm too slow and die to Hornet Queen. LL
0-6
8. Wrath of Pie: City of Traitors, Ratchet Bomb, Hangarback Walker, Hangarback Walker
Ratchet Bomb blowing up my tokens makes my life difficult, and you can always make 2 walkers first to generate fliers that win the race vs Awakening Zone. LL
0-6
9. H: Great Furnace, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Kuldotha Rebirth
Can't beat any of these Kuldotha Rebirth decks. LL
0-6
10. silkster: Shivan Gorge, Mercadian Bazaar, Lotus Petal, Energy Field
Can't beat Energy Field. LL
0-6
11. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
Complex but ultimately appears to be a stalemate. DD
2-2
12. Serguei: Force of Despair, Unmask, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth
Can't beat any of these Kuldotha Rebirth decks. LL
13. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Duress, Bitterblossom
Duress prevents Sprout Swarm, and Bitterblossom makes better tokens than Awakening Zone. I should have played Bitterblossom instead! (or made a good deck). LL
0-6
Total: 2 points. Ooof.
As WoP mentioned, OTD is actually less complicated because of Ratchet Bomb. WoP can get the Bomb to 2 counters before I play Bitterblossom, and then set it off before I ever get a token. Then Hangarback Walker(s) kill me.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
OTP is still kinda complicated, since there are a lot of lines. Here's both Walkers on turn 1 without ever adding more counters
m: Urborg, Duress takes Bomb
W: City, Walker (X=1), Walker (X=0)
m: Tabernacle, Bitterblossom
W: Pay upkeep costs and attack (m:13)
m: Faerie (m:12)
W: Attack with both, I block the 3/3 (m:8)
m: 2 Faeries, attack with 1 (m:7, W:16)
W: Attack, I block, you get a Thopter
m: 3 Faeries, attack with 2. You've got 1 Thopter and no Walkers, so you're not gonna win this one.
What if you try adding counters and letting the Walkers die for quick flyers
m: Urborg, Duress takes Bomb
W: City, Walker (X=1)
m: Tabernacle, Bitterblossom
W: Pay upkeep, tap Walker to add counter (c=2), play second walker (X=0)
m: Faerie (m:19)
W: Add a counter to both Walkers in response to the upkeep trigger, then let them die (4 Thopters)
m: 2 Faeries, no attack (m:18)
W: Pay upkeep for 2, 2 Thopters die
OK this is much worse. There's no way WoP wins like this
Maybe a 5/5 Walker works better
m: Urborg, Duress takes Bomb
W: City, Walker (X=1)
m: Tabernacle, Bitterblossom
W: Pay upkeep, tap Walker to add counter (c=2), play second walker (X=0)
m: Faerie (m:19)
W: Pay upkeep for the 5/5, use the other mana to add a counter to the 3/3 then let it die. Attack with the 5/5, no blocks (m:14)
m: 2 Faeries, attack with 1. Not sure if blocking here is better or not, so I'll explore both:
-- Line A (block)
(m: 1 untapped Faerie, W: a 5/5 Hangarback Walker)(m:13, W:20)
W: Pay upkeep for the 5/5, attack. Only 1 Faerie, so chumping now is bad (m:8)
m: 2 Faeries, attack with 1 (m:7, WoP:16)
From this point I could chump the 5/5 forever and win the race, so you have to switch to Thopters
W: Add a counter on upkeep, then let it die (3 Thopters)
m: 3 Faeries, no attacks (m:6)
W: Pay upkeep for 2 Thopters, no attacks
m: 3 Faeries, attack with 1, no blocks (m:5, WoP:12)
W: Pay upkeep for 2 Thopters, no attacks
m: 3 Faeries, attack with 1, no blocks (m:4, WoP:8)
W: Pay upkeep for 2 Thopters, no attacks
m: 3 Faeries, attack with 2, have to block now. If you block 1, you die the next turn whether you attack me or not. So block both (m:3, WoP:8)
W: Pass
m: 2 Faeries, attack with 1 (m:2, WoP:4)
W: Pass
m: 3 Faeries, attack with 2 (m:1, WoP:-4) (close one!)
-- Line B (no block)
(m: 1 untapped Faerie and 1 tapped Faerie, W: a 5/5 Hangarback Walker and a 4/4 Thopter)(m:13, W:16)
W: Pay upkeep. If you attack with both, I block the Thopter, go to 8, and end up in the exact same gamestate from Line A above. If you attack with just the Thopter, same thing except I'm up 5 life. If you attack with just the Walker, I chump and attack with 1 Faerie every turn until you do something different. This doesn't really open up any alternatives that weren't covered in Line A.
One more variant on the 5/5
m: Urborg, Duress takes Bomb
W: City, Walker (X=1)
m: Tabernacle, Bitterblossom
W: Pay upkeep, tap Walker to add counter (c=2), play second walker (X=0)
m: Faerie (m:19)
W: Pay upkeep for the 3/3, use the other mana to add a counter to the 3/3. Let the 5/5 die, creating 2 Thopters
m: 2 Faeries, no attacks (m:18)
W: Pay upkeep for the Thopters, let the Walker die to create a third Thopter
This isn't going to work. My Faeries trade straight up with each Thopter, I'm still at 18, and on my upkeep we'll have the same number of tokens each. You'll have 2 Thopters max on your next upkeep, and I'll always have at least one blocker. I can just attack with 1 every turn and I'll always have enough blockers to match your Thopters. You can only ever block twice, and I only have to hit you 5 times. Bitterblossom will take another 17 turns to kill me.
Edit: Just had one more idea with both walkers on turn 1
m: Urborg, Duress takes Bomb
W: City, Walker (X=1), Walker (X=0)
m: Tabernacle, Bitterblossom
W: Pay upkeep for the 4/4, use the other mana to add a counter to the 3/3 and let it die. Attack with the Walker (m:16)
m: Faerie (m:15)
W: Attack with both, I block the Thopter (m:11)
m: Faerie (m:10)
From here you can either pump the Walker or attack with it. I think attacking is better, but I should check both
-- Line A (pump)
W: Pay upkeep, add a counter
m: 2 Faeries, attack with 1 (m:9, W:16)
Chumping the 5/5 forever wins it for me, so you add a counter before letting Tabernacle kill it.
W: Add a counter on upkeep, then let it die (3 Thopters)
m: 3 Faeries, no attacks (m:8)
This is the same gamestate that was covered in Line A in that other variant, except my life total is 2 higher. Not optimal
-- Line B (attack)
W: Pay upkeep, attack. I block and trade. You get a Thopter
m: Faerie (m:9)
You only have 1 Thopter and I have a blocker. You can attack or block once to slow me down a turn, but I win in 5 attacks and Bitterblossom won't kill me for 9 turns. This is a win for me.
Looks like getting in some early damage with Hangarback Walkers is the closest you come to a win (and it's really close). For now I guess I'll call it 3-3, but if anybody sees a better line, speak up. I see some lines that have me winning at 1 life, so it's very possible there's a winning line for WoP in here somewhere
Hello For the next round i did not see the answer.
Can we loose or win by another way than one of the 2 players reaches 100 more life?
Yes. Alternative win conditions are in. Mortal Combat will make you win, and Door to Nothingness will make the opponent lose, which will make you win. The only ones that are out are: reducing your opponents life total to 0 or less, giving them 10 poison counters, and (as always) drawing from an empty library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serguei
I fear that the "life" format is secretly all about alternate win conditions, because getting to 100 life really fast is rather difficult, and stopping said lifegain is rather easy.
We're still missing some results:
Asthereal, dte, Tylert, Serguei
Should we consider starting the next round before all results are in just to make sure everyone has enough time before Wednesday? The last one was a little tight on time.
Effects like Leyline of Punishment are errata'd to not work, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
I asked that earlier. Want to confirm that before the round starts.
Sorry folks, I was away for a few days.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
My results will be bad, but I'll post them when I can.
And yes, I'm expecting to open next round before posting standings for last round.
I don't remember whether & what I answered there.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
But we should probably do that, right?
Otherwise it'll just be Leyline + alternate wincon.
Anybody opposed to errata'ing the round so that we ignore all effects that prevent lifegain?
Still doesn't cover False Cure, Rain of Gore and Tainted Remedy (I was going to submit this card) because they replace the lifegain.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I could blanket statement those as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
"Effects that would prevent, replace or mitigate lifegain in any way instead do nothing."
Something like this should do nicely.
False Cure seems fine. It's not a permanent. It can only be used once. My understanding is it would create a triggered ability that would cause life loss, triggering after the life has been gained. But then State Based Effects are checked and the player would win at 100 life before the triggers resolve. If it's used earlier before the player would reach 100 life, it undoes one turn's worth of lifegain but the life loss is not lethal. The player gets to try again next turn. Seems fair. Overall it will probably do less than Counterspell.
I agree about banning prevention of lifegain or replacement of lifegain with non-lifegain effects (replacement with doubled lifegain, for example, should be OK).
I am a little slow.
I have trouble figuring out how alternate wincons would work with the last paragraph.Quote:
9. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life with optimal play from either side, the game ends in a draw.
Lets say I get my wincon that allows me to gain life exiled or countered and my opponent plays something like Helix Pinnacle, but he has no way to reach 100 life. Does he win or is it a draw?
The way rules of the round was written I'd have expected to be a draw.
Sorry for the late results
1. Asthereal (TO): Remote Farm, City of Traitors, Windborn Muse, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
W OTP
L OTD
3 pts
2. Reeplcheep: Rain of Tears , Inkmoth Nexus, Urborg, Yomb of Yawgmoth , Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
LL
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Lotus Petal, Kuldotha Rebirth, Feldon's Cane
WW
6 pts
4. alphastryk: Khalni Garden, Golgari Rot Farm, Awakening Zone, Sprout Swarm
WW
6 pts
5. dte: City of traitors, Lotus petal, Energy field, Scalding tongs
WD
4 pts
6. Tylert: Great furnace, Kuldotha rebirth, Unmask, Force of despair
DD
2 pts
7. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Devoted Druid, Hornet Queen
WW
6 pts
8. Wrath of Pie: City of Traitors, Ratchet Bomb, Hangarback Walker, Hangarback Walker
LL
0 pts
9. H: Great Furnace, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Kuldotha Rebirth
DD
2 pts
10. silkster: Shivan Gorge, Mercadian Bazaar, Lotus Petal, Energy Field
WL
3 pts
11. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
DD
2 pts
13. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Duress, Bitterblossom
LD
1 pt
35 pts Sorry again for late results