[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by FoxBlade

So I have a question...

I'm trying to build a goblin deck with a black splash and I wonder what the opinion is for using cover of darkness?

I was thinking that + warren instigator or piledriver is pretty nasty with that. I dunno, sounds pretty nasty in theory, so I'm going to playtest it - but yeah what do you all think of it?

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First immediate issue is that its not a goblin. Plus, everyone after the first becomes a dead card. Every slot used for it is an important piece of the deck being removed. I think in theory its nice, but its not really worth the slot. The idea of making lackeys/instigators/piledrivers unblockable has been raised before (soaring sea cliffs), but it didn't pan out for a reason. Lackey's true strength is the idea of him. He forces your opponent to react to him, slowing down their game plan. This allows you to get the immediate upper hand. Not mention, the deck runs plenty of turn 2 removal that also have other good later game uses.

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Originally Posted by JonBarber

First immediate issue is that its not a goblin. Plus, everyone after the first becomes a dead card. Every slot used for it is an important piece of the deck being removed. I think in theory its nice, but its not really worth the slot. The idea of making lackeys/instigators/piledrivers unblockable has been raised before (soaring sea cliffs), but it didn't pan out for a reason. Lackey's true strength is the idea of him. He forces your opponent to react to him, slowing down their game plan. This allows you to get the immediate upper hand. Not mention, the deck runs plenty of turn 2 removal that also have other good later game uses.

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If Goblin Kites were a Tribal Enchantment - Goblin...oh the possibilities!!

Are Nameless Inversion or Wort, Boggart Auntie ever used in splash versions?

I don't think Nameless Inversion cuts the mustard to be used in legacy, but I run a singleton Wort in my build. She's helpful when she hits.

Speaking of changelings, there are 2 I've considered: Changeling Berserker and Blades of Velis Vel. Blades has some nice corner applications, but I don't think it's good enough to make the 75 (although running Instigator helps this case immensely).

Changeling Berserker seems really good to me. 5/3 body, like Earwig Squad, can cause problems (or at least trade with Goyf), but the fact that you can reuse a Matron, Ringleader, War Marshal, Stingscourger, or SGC ETB trigger makes it really good in my book. I think it has an edge over the similar Boggart Mob and Lightning Crafter with the natural haste, so it poses a unique game problem for your opponent: do I block him and kill him, giving my opponent more card advantage, or do I take 5 to the face every turn. Most guys your opponent has a chance to remove by the time they can swing, but he affects the board immediately. I'm just not convinced if it's really necessary because it seems like a win-more (not as much as the other two because of his immediate effect).

Taco has mentioned playing 'Cover of Darkness' in the past (from memory).
There is discussion on this thread. Shame I can't use the search function with any effect any more.

BTW, Anyone know what is up with that? The search only seems to find recent posts.

Yes it isn't a goblin, but it is turn 2 removal in a sense and it remains on the board. The con's have already been noted (I.E. Non Goblin + Tight decklist)

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Originally Posted by arebennian

Taco has mentioned playing 'Cover of Darkness' in the past (from memory).
There is discussion on this thread. Shame I can't use the search function with any effect any more.

BTW, Anyone know what is up with that? The search only seems to find recent posts.

Yes it isn't a goblin, but it is turn 2 removal in a sense and it remains on the board. The con's have already been noted (I.E. Non Goblin + Tight decklist)

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I'll try and fit in my list and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

I don't think Nameless Inversion cuts the mustard to be used in legacy, but I run a singleton Wort in my build. She's helpful when she hits.

Speaking of changelings, there are 2 I've considered: Changeling Berserker and Blades of Velis Vel. Blades has some nice corner applications, but I don't think it's good enough to make the 75 (although running Instigator helps this case immensely).

Changeling Berserker seems really good to me. 5/3 body, like Earwig Squad, can cause problems (or at least trade with Goyf), but the fact that you can reuse a Matron, Ringleader, War Marshal, Stingscourger, or SGC ETB trigger makes it really good in my book. I think it has an edge over the similar Boggart Mob and Lightning Crafter with the natural haste, so it poses a unique game problem for your opponent: do I block him and kill him, giving my opponent more card advantage, or do I take 5 to the face every turn. Most guys your opponent has a chance to remove by the time they can swing, but he affects the board immediately. I'm just not convinced if it's really necessary because it seems like a win-more (not as much as the other two because of his immediate effect).

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I have tryed both. Nameless inversion don't make the cut.
Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

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Originally Posted by JonBarber

I'll try and fit in my list and see how it goes.

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Just watch when you play it, as it can really screw with your tempo if you lay it at the wrong time.

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Originally Posted by arebennian

Just watch when you play it, as it can really screw with your tempo if you lay it at the wrong time.

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I appreciate that =P

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

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I'm only looking at RB for my options, and I think Berserker is better than Crafter in my build since I don't run Warchief. In mono-R you have 4 Warchief + 2 or so Chieftains, so you should have a haste effect active by the time you play Lightning Crafter, who has a more significant board presence since he can hit anything when he comes in with haste. In my BR, I run Frogtossers instead of Warchiefs (I love it, it really frees up the 3cc spot), so I can only give Crafter haste with 2 cards in my deck, making him a lot slower. So in RB, Berserker is better. I will try him out though.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

I'm only looking at RB for my options, and I think Berserker is better than Crafter in my build since I don't run Warchief. In mono-R you have 4 Warchief + 2 or so Chieftains, so you should have a haste effect active by the time you play Lightning Crafter, who has a more significant board presence since he can hit anything when he comes in with haste. In my BR, I run Frogtossers instead of Warchiefs (I love it, it really frees up the 3cc spot), so I can only give Crafter haste with 2 cards in my deck, making him a lot slower. So in RB, Berserker is better. I will try him out though.

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My testings were pre-M10, so no Chieftains. You have a good point there. But you do run Chieftains in Rb right?

2 Chieftans. My latest decklist is on the last page.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I have tryed both. Nameless inversion don't make the cut.
Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

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I really don't think either of these should be played. They are expensive, and don't have nearly the same impact that high drops such as ringleader and siege-gang do. We have piledrivers to do the serious damage, a 5/3 isn't all that helpful.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I have tryed both. Nameless inversion don't make the cut.
Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

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I really don't think either of these should be played. They are expensive, and don't have nearly the same impact that high drops such as ringleader and siege-gang do. We have piledrivers to do the serious damage, a 5/3 isn't all that helpful.

Played Rb Goblins at a local tournament this weekend placing 8th. Downside: we were only 11 people :( Thus 2-2
First loss came into first round vs SI variant. After losing the dice roll, all dicerolls by the way, had to mull. Managed to beat him to 9, he was forced to put Tendrils on top with brainstorm so it was basically just 5 life he had with ad nauseam, still sufficent.
2nd game he punted me in his first round after taking Mindbreak Trap with Therapy.

Second loss came in vs a friend with zoo (no library, but Guides and Lynx).
First Game was close, second was took home by my army.
3rd he had first turn Mancer on board. Followed by my Lackey, his Nacatl wasn't very impressed but he burned the Lackey anyway. I didn't manage to get a lonely Goblin on the board and having 2 mana up to be able to Gempalm the Mancer.

For reference here is my list:

Main:
6 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 AEther Vial
2 Warren Weirding
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin King
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap

That's also leading to a question of mine.
You see i only splashed green for the Krosan Grips thus having an out to Engineered Plague. And i also play 4 lord effects, still the need of the Grips.
How can you run lists with no out to Plague or is just not used in your meta ?

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Originally Posted by daPaule

That's also leading to a question of mine.
You see i only splashed green for the Krosan Grips thus having an out to Engineered Plague. And i also play 4 lord effects, still the need of the Grips.
How can you run lists with no out to Plague or is just not used in your meta ?

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Just play Goblin Chieftain, and Engineered Plague is not being played as much. Plague didn't seem like it was a problem in your tournament, I would just play Chieftains or use those SB slots for something else.

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

Just play Goblin Chieftain, and Engineered Plague is not being played as much. Plague didn't seem like it was a problem in your tournament, I would just play Chieftains or use those SB slots for something else.

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The Reason behind the lonely King is that at the GP trials we had alot of Dreadstills and Zoos running around, so i thought it would be good if all my creatures were unblockable :wink: I just realised that they we're all gone to madrid when i arrived at the shop so removing Tinkerer from the main to add a 2nd Earwig and not removing the King also.
But as i didn't draw one of them or a matron in the only game where it mattered i guess i will just cut one again.

And the Krosans will become REBs or Thoughtseize.

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Originally Posted by daPaule

Played Rb Goblins at a local tournament this weekend placing 8th. Downside: we were only 11 people :( Thus 2-2
First loss came into first round vs SI variant. After losing the dice roll, all dicerolls by the way, had to mull. Managed to beat him to 9, he was forced to put Tendrils on top with brainstorm so it was basically just 5 life he had with ad nauseam, still sufficent.
2nd game he punted me in his first round after taking Mindbreak Trap with Therapy.

Second loss came in vs a friend with zoo (no library, but Guides and Lynx).
First Game was close, second was took home by my army.
3rd he had first turn Mancer on board. Followed by my Lackey, his Nacatl wasn't very impressed but he burned the Lackey anyway. I didn't manage to get a lonely Goblin on the board and having 2 mana up to be able to Gempalm the Mancer.

For reference here is my list:

Main:
6 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 AEther Vial
2 Warren Weirding
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin King
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap

That's also leading to a question of mine.
You see i only splashed green for the Krosan Grips thus having an out to Engineered Plague. And i also play 4 lord effects, still the need of the Grips.
How can you run lists with no out to Plague or is just not used in your meta ?

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Why no instigator?

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Originally Posted by JonBarber

Why no instigator?

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I don't really like him, yet. I have played a lot of games were even first turn Lackey was stopped and Instigator isn't much better regarding Zoo's creatures.
But I will give him a try next time removing something.

Also War Marshall was mediocre but that heavily depended on the decks i ran into. In other testings he was great, but not this time.

The problem I have is that my meta is pretty healthy, or random if you like it this way. We're usually somewhere between 30 or 40 and you can face everything.

Ha. The only person who even knows they exist in my meta is my friend, and he refuses to buy cards unless they're amazing in his burn deck.
But a thing to consider: most people shit their pants at the thought of letting Insigator through.