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So you need Wrath of God to make Elspeth better than a 4 mana Maze of Ith?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
And why do you need Elspeth if you're resolving Wrath against a creature deck anyway? I'd still rather cast any number of other cards, starting with Jace.
Or Swords to Plowshares, or any of the other removal that you have in a board control deck that runs alot of removal.Quote:
So you need Wrath of God to make Elspeth better than a 4 mana Maze of Ith?
Because if you don't have the removal in hand right away, Elspeth can buy you the time you need to draw into it. Because once you get an Elspeth going, if the opponent doesn't deal with it right away, you win the game.Quote:
And why do you need Elspeth if you're resolving Wrath against a creature deck anyway? I'd still rather cast any number of other cards, starting with Jace.
Why is winning with Jace any different than winning with Elspeth? You still need to cast removal if the opponent has creatures in play.
Elspeth is really good, and it's been known that she's been really good for quite some time. I'm not sure why you are questioning this.
Saying that Elspeth is a 4 mana Maze of Ith is like calling Jace a 4 mana Brainstorm. Both statements make about as much sense (which is none).
EDIT: Oh, and you know what's even better than having 4 Jace's clogging up your hand? Running a 2/2 split with Elspeth, and then putting both of them into play.
Hanni, I don't know why you bother to reply to those statements... Klaus already made the point pretty clear.
Today I rejoined the magic community by attending to a tournamente (last one was in march, I think...), 50 people exactly. I played some mish mash of classic and speedstill, and I really missed decree and wasteland. Not that I lost the games in which I missed those cards, but I certainly would've won much easier. Needles to say, with jace the control mirror (and by control I mean rock landstill landeed) makes elspeth a bit useless (in fact i sided out 1 against rock I thnk...). Fact or fiction good card, -2 fof-1 path +3 decree would've been a choice. But, standstill sometimes it's too much of a liability, and jace it's the same...decree makes standstill less of a liability, so maybe fof is the right card to cut, don't know. Vedalken shackles real mvp of the day! Sb pretty champagne. The list:
4 mishra's factory
1 ruins
4 flooded
2 scalding
1 arid mesa
4 tundra
2 volcanic
1 plateau
1 tropical
2 island
2 plains
4 force
3 cs
3 snare
4 stp
3 path
1 shackles (klaus, I suggest you to find 1/2 slot for this one, pull out those condemn!)
3 EE
2 wrath
2 elspeth
3 jace tms
2 fof
3 standstill (missed the 4th, doj or not doj)
4 brainstorm
SB
3 meddling mage (worst card of the day)
3 negate
1 reb
1 pyro (good combination)
1 grip
1 fracturing gust (monobrown and enchantress)
1 crucible
3 finks
1 preacher
R1 probant 2-0
R2 rock: 1-0 (opponent doesn't concede with Elspeth AND jace AND shackles on my side and him with 0 cards in hand and top...)
R3: goblin 2-1
R4: UWb cunning landstill. Teammate, very skilled. I ask for draw but he refuses, having already a draw. We end up drawing however for time being called at the beginning of g3.
R5: probant 0-2 (ALWAYS cb top on 2nd with force backup, when i succesfully block one, here's another cb on t3. ALWAYS the cc4 on top)
R6: rock (again) I totally dominate the game chaining 3 standstill in a row and both fof's
top8: jace landeed. he wins g1 with jace, i win g2 via vedalken shackles on t5 followed by a jace the next turn. g3 i mull top 5 and topdeck 2 jace 2 fow then like 12 lands. We play draw go untile a jace on my turn, we have a counterwar which i win and we empty hands. We legend our jaces i topdeck reb like a champ, then resolve elspeth and win removing my opponent's mishras.
top4: 43 lands. I have a deck with no wastelands or grave hate... :D
@Jashar: I didn't realize it when you posted only when you talked about EE not answering Planeswalkers: with four Explosives, you should definitely be splashing a single off-color dual to get EE@4. The disadvantages are nearly non-existant and being able to explode Walkers is huge (by all means don't do it for the ASL, I, at least, will be happy ;) ).
Also, may I suggest Mazes in the Condemn slots? You know how much I love that card ever since CAB built JaceTM, and if you're already running removal that can only target attackers, you might as well throw in removal that can be played under Standstill and has synergy with the set of EEs, don't you think?
@Elspeth: I'm with Rico and Jashar here. When I tested Landstill against anything aggressive (I was looking for a control-deck I could play in Legacy), Elspeth was usually either Fog + target opponent discards a dead card he's holding (with a lategame Rampant Growth thrown in if testing against Zoo instead of Goblins), or a removal-resistant four mana 4/4. Sometimes she was a 4 mana Maze that got tapped by removal but transformed into a 4/4 manland once I had topdecked removal of my own.
Aside:
@Rico: I get the impression you did test the Jace-deck quite a bit, considering your stance on Jace ;)
End aside.
@Hanni: Sorry that I'll be quoting you so excessively while disagreeing, this is not meant as a personal attack, but you're simply the only one that presents arguments for Elspeth.
Maze of Ith also doesn't get blown out by your opponents otherwise dead cards before doing something that is usually a waste of time (aka making everything indestructible - if you manage to keep a Planeswalker in play for 5 turns and can then create an empty board, you usually won't need indestructibility any more. I at least almost never used her ultimate.).Quote:
Until you cast Wrath of God, and then make another 1/1 token. And then make everything indestructible. Now you have multiple indestructible 1/1 tokens to chump everything, and a 4/4 flyer thats ending the game. I don't think Maze of Ith can do that.
Jace bouncing usually buys you as much time without opening you up to your opponents dead cards (honestly, if they don't add an additional creature after two turns, you're running pretty good).Quote:
Because if you don't have the removal in hand right away, Elspeth can buy you the time you need to draw into it. Because once you get an Elspeth going, if the opponent doesn't deal with it right away, you win the game.
If you get either going you will win, so that isn't much of an edge for Elspeth. And I actually disagree with your "if you get Elspeth going and they don't deal with it right away..." Having Elspeth in play for four turns does essentially nothing if she gets blown up afterwards, and four turns is far from right away in the typical game of Magic. With Jace you have actually drawn 4 extra-cards at the very least, actually I have yet to loose any games I got to untap in twice with Jace out. (4 turns with Elspeth = you have drawn four extra Mons' Goblin Raiders or 1 Raider and 3 Flames of the Blood Hand). Awesome.
Winning with Jace is different because it does something pretty neat: it reduces their threat-count by half. It also helps you find the removal you need if that isn't enough and you have to go back into removal-mode. With Elspeth you're instead reducing your opponents irrelevant life-total. If you are attacking with a pumped Soldier and have to switch back into removal-mode, Elspeth has done practically nothing.Quote:
Why is winning with Jace any different than winning with Elspeth? You still need to cast removal if the opponent has creatures in play.
Hmm, to me calling Elspeth a 4 mana Maze is rather like calling Jace a four mana Urza's Blueprints. A rather apt though clearly limited comparison.Quote:
Saying that Elspeth is a 4 mana Maze of Ith is like calling Jace a 4 mana Brainstorm. Both statements make about as much sense (which is none).
Look at it this way,maybe the comparison will make more sense:
Full board: Elspeth is a four mana fog or maybe two, jace is a four mana Fog and a Brainstorm.
Single creature: Assuming you actually do draw removal somewhen during the next six cards, Jace is two unsummons and a Brainstorm that must still be dealt with afterwards, Elspeth is a four mana Maze that get's disabled by creature-removal (honestly, if you don't draw removal, using her ultimate AND keeping her in play afterwards without a new soldier will take like 14 turns, so using her as anything but a Maze is a pipedream under the no removal assumption, meaning we can ignore that case).
No creatures: Elspeth is a 4/4 flyer with "if this gets targeted by removal, return it to play during your next turn". Jace is either Brainstorm every turn or a 3/3 shroud that says your opponent can only draw an out if there are two in a row on top of his library.
[/quote]Quote:
EDIT: Oh, and you know what's even better than having 4 Jace's clogging up your hand? Running a 2/2 split with Elspeth, and then putting both of them into play.
Considering you should already be winning quite handily if Jace is online (and not dieing), putting an Elspeth next to it isn't all that relevant. One might even say its win more.
Jaces are non-redundant because one being active means you win (not to mention they cannot clog up your hand in this context, also known as the Brainstorm phenomenon). Drawing extras when Jace is on-board unmolested is irrelevant because Jace alive and kicking means you don't need anything else.
Also, you know what's better than having an Elspeth in hand when your Jace gets blown up (or your opponent plays one first)? Having (another) Jace in hand.
We seem to be on different wavelengths regarding this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
It appears you feel Elspeth is just as powerful as Jace. I don't consider making a 1/1 "winning" nor do I consider it "really good" like you do. I feel that Jace is much, much better and wins many more games that Elspeth could not.
I think running Elspeth at the expense of Jace is a blatant mistake. And as for Elspeth itself, I just think there are better cards to run.
Yes, we tested the CAB Jace deck quite a bit. We've been testing all sorts of control decks lately, actually. But I don't want to sidetrack this thread much. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
We came to a few conclusions though. One is that Jace defines control in Legacy right now. Decks without Jace will slowly become obsolete. People without Jace are going to be pushed out of playing control.
And Brainstorm doesn't cost you 4 mana when your opponent has a 3/3 or larger already on the board.Quote:
Maze of Ith also doesn't get blown out by your opponents otherwise dead cards before doing something that is usually a waste of time
I win with indestructibility all the time. Elspeth makes chump blocks until I draw removal, then makes more chump blocks, then all of my chump blocks become indestructible, and the opponent can no longer push damage through. After all that, I clock them down with a 4/4 flyer and win the game.Quote:
aka making everything indestructible - if you manage to keep a Planeswalker in play for 5 turns and can then create an empty board, you usually won't need indestructibility any more. I at least almost never used her ultimate
Jace bouncing is much less effective than Elspeth making a 1/1 chump blocker, unless you have a Counterspell to answer the bounced creature, because Jace loses loyalty while Elspeth gains loyalty.Quote:
Jace bouncing usually buys you as much time without opening you up to your opponents dead cards (honestly, if they don't add an additional creature after two turns, you're running pretty good).
If the board is clean, and stays clean either because the opponent doesn't play any creatures, or because you have counters/removal for those creatures, both Planeswalkers will win you the game. Winning is winning, so there's no difference. Elspeth is a 5 turn clock and Jace is a 6 turn clock. How is Elspeth getting blown up while Jace isn't? If they can blow up Elspeth, then they can blow up Jace.Quote:
If you get either going you will win, so that isn't much of an edge for Elspeth. And I actually disagree with your "if you get Elspeth going and they don't deal with it right away..." Having Elspeth in play for four turns does essentially nothing if she gets blown up afterwards, and four turns is far from right away in the typical game of Magic.
4 turns with Elspeth doesn't mean you've drawn 4 extra Mons Goblin Raiders, it means you've cycled Decree for 4 1/1 tokens.Quote:
With Jace you have actually drawn 4 extra-cards at the very least, actually I have yet to loose any games I got to untap in twice with Jace out. (4 turns with Elspeth = you have drawn four extra Mons' Goblin Raiders or 1 Raider and 3 Flames of the Blood Hand). Awesome.
By the way, using Jace purely for the drawing ability doesn't actually win you the game, and unless you are relying on your opponent to scoop it up, you're going to have to start fatesealing at some point.
How does it reduce their threat count by half? They go from having 4 Tarmogoyf's in their deck to 2? Huh?Quote:
Winning with Jace is different because it does something pretty neat: it reduces their threat-count by half. It also helps you find the removal you need if that isn't enough and you have to go back into removal-mode. With Elspeth you're instead reducing your opponents irrelevant life-total. If you are attacking with a pumped Soldier and have to switch back into removal-mode, Elspeth has done practically nothing.
The 'Brainstorm' dig can help you find removal, but what if you don't? That Nacatl's going to insta-gib your Jace. Or better yet, Lightning Bolt.
How is the opponent's life total irrelevant? You attack with Elspeth, and in some builds, Mishra's Factory and Decree of Justice, and then they die. Before Jace was printed, attacking was the only way that the game was won. How does Jace all of a sudden make the opponent's life total irrelevant? Just because you have a means of winning regardless of the opponent's life total doesn't make the opponent's life total irrelevant.
If you switch back to removal mode, Elspeth has caused the opponent to lose life. Once you switch your role back to being the beatdown, you just pick up where you left off. The opponent's life total doesn't reset back to 20 each turn.
How? Unless you have removal, Jace casts Brainstorm and then dies. If you have removal, Elspeth is no longer a Maze of Ith. Do you see?Quote:
Hmm, to me calling Elspeth a 4 mana Maze is rather like calling Jace a four mana Urza's Blueprints. A rather apt though clearly limited comparison.
On a full board Elspeth can come down, make a 1/1 token, and ramp to 5 loyalty. Jace comes down, Brainstorms, and has 3 loyalty. Most likely, Elspeth chumps (1/1 token) and eats some damage but survives with 1 or 2 loyalty. Jace, on the other hand, dies. Next turn, Elspeth chumps (1/1 token) again and eats some more damage and dies. In that case, you've blanked 4 sources of damage with Elspeth, where Jace blanked 1 source of damage and cast a Brainstorm.Quote:
Look at it this way,maybe the comparison will make more sense:
Full board: Elspeth is a four mana fog or maybe two, jace is a four mana Fog and a Brainstorm.
Single creature: Assuming you actually do draw removal somewhen during the next six cards, Jace is two unsummons and a Brainstorm that must still be dealt with afterwards, Elspeth is a four mana Maze that get's disabled by creature-removal (honestly, if you don't draw removal, using her ultimate AND keeping her in play afterwards without a new soldier will take like 14 turns, so using her as anything but a Maze is a pipedream under the no removal assumption, meaning we can ignore that case).
Against a single creature, Elspeth can chump all day long until you draw a removal spell. Jace can only unsummon for 3 turns, and if you're Brainstorming and don't hit a removal spell, Jace is dead. Elspeth, in the meantime, is ramping loyalty so that she can eventually go for ultimate.
If the opponent hits the 1/1 token with a creature removal spell, Elspeth gets hit for damage. How often is an Elspeth that has been ramping counters going to die in a single strike? Even after the very first turn cast, Elspeth goes to 5 loyalty. Your average Tarmogoyf (the premier big guy) is a 4/5. Then you go back to making 1/1's and ramping counters until they cast another removal spell, or drop another creature. If the opponent is using their own Brainstorm's to dig for Swords to try and destroy Elspeth, you're gaining alot of virtual card advantage.
If it takes 14 turns to finally ultimate with Elspeth because I couldn't draw removal, I fail to see how Jace would have survived instead. Are you assuming that you are popping a fetchland after every Jace activation or something?
Shroud? Since when does being able to get destroyed by Lightning Bolt, Vindicate, Wild Nacatl, and many other spells, count as having Shroud? Elspeth is a 4/4 flyer when the board is clear, Jace is a fatesealer when the board is clear. The opponent is less likely to draw into an out with Jace because of this, but Elspeth can switch back into a defensive role if the opponent draws an out, making a wall of 1/1 tokens. Jace will Brainstorm to try and find an answer. Once you re-establish control of the gamestate, Elspeth goes back to swinging with a 4/4 flyer, Jace goes back to fatesealing.Quote:
No creatures: Elspeth is a 4/4 flyer with "if this gets targeted by removal, return it to play during your next turn". Jace is either Brainstorm every turn or a 3/3 shroud that says your opponent can only draw an out if there are two in a row on top of his library.
Once Jace ramps enough counters and pops the ultimate, that's usually gg. Elspeth will have usually won by 4/4 flying beats by this time. However, opposing interaction can slow both plans down. Elspeth is always ramping counters, so eventually she will go ultimate if the game goes long.
You underestimate how valuable making everything indestructible truly is, especially if you are running cards like Mishra's Factory and Decree of Justice, or Academy Ruins + EE, or Counterbalance + Top, Vedalken Shackles, Humility, and many other spells.
I also think you overestimate how strong the fatesealing ability is. Just because you can screw with your opponent's draws does not mean that sending the first bomb you see to the bottom means they don't draw into another one. You also haven't taken into account matchups where the opponent can manipulate their draws, whether that be with Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, or whatever.
If you have a Jace online, you're opponent can still draw outs. You might be winning, but that doesn't mean the win is absolute. Sticking Elspeth next to Jace makes gives the opponent much less out's. It's also better than having one Jace in play and another one (dead) in hand, right?Quote:
Considering you should already be winning quite handily if Jace is online (and not dieing), putting an Elspeth next to it isn't all that relevant. One might even say its win more.
If by win more, you mean that putting both in play causes you to win more, then yes.
Brainstorm or no Brainstorm does not prevent you from having excess Jace's clogging up your hand. If you play one Jace and use the Brainstorm ability to put two Jaces on top, you still need a fetchland to get rid of otherwise dead spells on top. This makes getting clogged less frequent and less of an issue, but it's still a relevant issue that a 2/2 split of Jace and Elspeth doesn't have.Quote:
Jaces are non-redundant because one being active means you win (not to mention they cannot clog up your hand in this context, also known as the Brainstorm phenomenon). Drawing extras when Jace is on-board unmolested is irrelevant because Jace alive and kicking means you don't need anything else.
Also, you know what's better than having an Elspeth in hand when your Jace gets blown up (or your opponent plays one first)? Having (another) Jace in hand.
Also, I agree and disagree with the statement that having another Jace in hand is better than having an Elspeth in hand if Jace gets blown up. It's completely dependant on gamestate, as both Planeswalker's are better in different situations.
----
First of all, I'm not arguing against Jace, I run 2 Jaces myself. So any argument that is Elspeth vs Jace is difficult for me to do in the first place because both cards are strong, and each have pros and cons in different situations.
Secondly, Elspeth isn't something new. She's been used for a very long time in Landstill, and has been widely accepted as being a strong card. I fail to see how Jace all of a sudden is causing players to make awful fucking statements like Elspeth is a 4 mana Maze of Ith, unless you just picked up the deck recently and never got to really play with Elspeth in the first place.
Thirdly, none of these arguments seems to understand that you don't play Jace and nothing else, and you don't play Elspeth and nothing else. Both Plansewalker's are complimented by the rest of the spells in the deck, like removal and countermagic. Elspeth is only a Maze of Ith until the opponent overcommits and you cast Wrath of God, Jace is only a Brainstorm until you fill your hand with Counterspells and start fatesealing. Trying to look at the raw strengths of each one without considering how the rest of the deck works in combination with each Planeswalker is retarded.
If you think Jace is strictly superior in all given situations no matter what and that Elspeth is a waste of cardboard, go play 4 Jaces' and 0 Elspeth's. I'm done with this discussion.
/end
It is quite difficult to take you seriously when you post like this. There is no reason to show this much disrespect, especially when it's just a disagreement over a card in a magic deck. Here is what you have managed to do:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
-Call me and another person a troll not once, but twice
-Say my ideas "fucking awful"
-Imply that I have recently started playing Landstill and you have much more experience
-State that I don't think about why or why not to run each of these cards
Is this really necessary? Of course not. It would be best if we didn't have to resort to such childish measures.
This went down the wrong path when I said this:
"And why do you need Elspeth if you're resolving Wrath against a creature deck anyway? I'd still rather cast any number of other cards, starting with Jace. "
This wasn't meant as a direct comparison of Elspeth to Jace, though it could easily be seen as such. I was trying to make a point that if the deck can survive to the point of casting Wrath and untapping against aggro, then it is already in an advantageous position and any number of cards would be serviceable to "win" the game.
Elspeth being a 4 mana Maze of Ith is certainly a valid comparison. The owner spends 4 mana, and is able to nullify one attacking creature each turn which is exactly what Maze of Ith would do. Sure Elspeth has synergy with cards like Wrath of God, but so does the Maze of Ith! And quite frankly, Elspeth isn't that hot against decks like Lands, CB/Top, and other decks that aren't early beatdown.
Elspeth isn't a bad card, but it's not that great either. The burden is on Elspeth to prove why it is good enough to be in the deck, and with the curve starting to clog at 4 mana it is pretty tough to justify Elspeth in a deck with Jace and Wrath. Sure you could play a 2/2 split of Jace/Elspeth and ease the curve a bit, but then you're running the wrong number of Jace and that is leading to a worse deck.
I would never cut Elspeth, but I run Humilities. She's my favourite card in the deck for sure.
If I didn't play humility I'd consider trying Jace over Elspeth. I don't run Jace currently because I don't want too many 4+ mana cards and I'm playing 7 already (2 Elspeth, 2 Humility, 2 WoG, 1 Decree).
A question about post-mystical sideboarding:
My current sb is:
4 Canonist
4 Plagues
4 Leyline
3 Extirpate
The canonists aren't really needed anymore. Matchups I'd mainly like to improve postboard are Goblins, Merfolk, Ichorid and Lands.dec
I was thinking about something along the lines of:
4 Engineered Plague (Goblin/Merfolk)
2 Preacher(Merfolk)
4 Leyline of the Void (Ichorid, maybe Lands, Thopter combo)
4 Extirpate (Lands and several other matchups)
1 Free Spot?
1) How would you build this sb?
And some MB questions:
My current list in short:
2 EE, 3 Top, 4 Standstill, 2 Humility, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Counterspell, 4 FoW, 2 Spell Snare, 2 PtE, 4 StP, 2 Elspeth, 1 DoJ, 2 WoG, 2 Vindicate, 6 Duals, 6 Fetch, 4 Basics, 4 Factory, 3 Waste)
2) Academy Ruins instead of 3rd waste? Or only with 3-4 EE?
3) 3rd EE over something else? (Cut it for a PtE before)
4) 3rd Elspeth or 1st Jace over DoJ?
5) 2,3 or 4 win conditions (not counting factories)?
6) 2 or 3 Tops?
7) Or cut tops for FoF (increases curve but also adds blue count & is a bomb)?
8) Cut a standstill, or is 4 still good? (Merfolk is the most played deck around here)
And finally a question concerning SB plans:
9) I run only 17 blue cards. If I side out Standstills against 'folk I'm at 13. Is this a big problem? What would you side out anyways for 4 Plagues & 2 Preachers?
I like two DoJ in the main, maybe cut a top for that, and then the other two for FoF.
Against merfolk I'd side out the snares, 1 DoJ if you main two, maybe the FoF, 1 standstill(still good against merfolk if you can keep their vial off the table), 2 path maybe? I don't like taking out removal against folk but you still have wipes and with plague you have even more mass removal against them(besides that I don't like giving them more land since they run a lot of basics anyway and more lands means coralhelm gets bigger faster)
Hanni is completely right, I'm not sure why Elspeth is getting hated so much. She is better against Aggro. We're Landstill, if Elspeth is getting killed often by creature damage, you have more problems to worry about than Elspeth or Jace. They're both good depending on the situation but Elspeth is often better against aggro.
.qft.Quote:
hanni is completely right, i'm not sure why elspeth is getting hated so much. She is better against aggro. We're landstill, if elspeth is getting killed often by creature damage, you have more problems to worry about than elspeth or jace. They're both good depending on the situation but elspeth is often better against aggro.
We should not be comparing Elspeth, Knight-Errant with Jace, the Mind Sculptor. We should instead be seeing how each helps the other:
-Jace is good for the control mirrors as he helps out draw and screw the draws of our opponent. He can also help kill combo decks or reanimator decks.
-Elspeth is good for the aggro matchups as the tokens she generates chump block until she can ultimate, which will eventually allow her to overwhelm the opponent with mass solider tokens.
Both planeswalkers are good, so we should be using both.
What do you all think of the new artifact Crystal Ball?
3
Artifact
T, 1: Scry 2
http://sales.starcitygames.com//card...product=175915
I think top is better for the same kind of purposes.
Top is better, cheaper to cast, and is protected by non-Grip removal. Top also has synergy with fetches and can actually grab a card on top if needed. Crystal Ball will probably see play in Standard and maybe Extended, but it's doubtful that it will see a lot of play in Legacy if you ask me.
Atrocious.Quote:
What do you all think of the new artifact Crystal Ball?
Sensei's Divining Top > Crystal Ball
If Crystal Ball sees any play, it will be limited to Stax and Stompy variants (running Chalice and Trinisphere) that need a way to increase consistency.
Almost messed myself a couple of days ago.. Was doing some work in the garden with Monday Night Magic on the background. Heart them talking about Mystifying Maze. Only problem was that I only heart the ability but not the part which says that you also have to pay 4 to activate it... Would have been pretty awesome in Landstill :D
Anyways..
Went to a tournament previous weekend with my new revisited list and ended in 4th place out of +-50. I'm at work atm so don't have my notes with me. Maybe I'll post a more detailed list another time but I'll give a short run through.
1st Round vs Goblins 0-2
The day starts out very well for me *enter sarcasm*. First game he draws 3 of his Vials. I FoW the first, EE the second but the 3th sticks. He manages to keep me of WW for my Humility and he crushes me.
Game 2 he draws all 4 of his Vials! After getting rit of the first three we have a friendly laugh about how godly his draws are. Next turn he rips, chuckles and plays his 4th.. I die in a flurry of goblins shortly after.
2nd Round vs some kind of ProTresh 2-0
Don't remember much about the matchup. He's very committed to the Progenitus plan in both games but I manage to stick a Humility in the first (is there a better Humility than on Progenitus?) and Wrath in the second game.
3th Round vs Bant Aggro 2-0
Also don’t remember much of this one only a scoop in game 1 after one of the sickest FoFs I’ve ever seen: Humility, FoW, Counterspell, Jace 2.0, FoF. Put that in your pipe and smoke it :)
4th Round vs Zoo 2-1
I loose game one after keeping a dodgy hand and not getting 4 mana until turn 7. Game 2 I win with 4 life left. Game 3 I win with 2 life left.
5th Round vs Zoo 2-1
Almost exact same scenario as previous match. Get manascrewed in game one and win 2 very close second games.
After this round there was some discussion for the cut to top 8. Because it was pretty late the judge decided to cut of know. Because my round 1 loss opponent went 5-0 I made top 8 with ease.
Quarter Finals vs Landstill 2-1
Oowyeah, my favorite type of game! I loose a verry drawn out game. It’s pretty even until he casts a DoJ for 7 and wins the counterwar over my EE. Game 2 I beat him down with flying Mishra’s thanks to Elspeth. Game 3 is a real thriller but I manage to pull out at the end. The difference? We both had 3 Jace 2.0 after side but I also had 3 Vindicates.
Semi Finals vs Reanimator 1-2
He wins game one with a god draw. First turn Ritual, Entomb Iona, Reanimate with FoW for my Fow.. Yeah..
Second game I keep a hand with 1 Extirpate and Brainstorm into a second one. I stick Humility and ride flying Mishra’s to victory.
Then happens my f*ck up moment of the day..
When I sideboard I always shuffle in my entire sb to give the least possible information to my opponent. So we are shuffling up and my opponent requests a bathroom brake. I also go outside to get a fresh nose. We sit down again, shuffle up and start. You can probably guess what happened? Yeah.. I didn’t side out anything. I immediately noticed it but I had already looked at the first couple cards and get a game loss.
So after all was said and done I finished 4th and received a Polluted Delta 20€ store credit for my efforts.
Anyway, here’s the list;
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Glaciel Fortress
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Humility
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Fact or Fiction
Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Counterspell
2 Negate
I was very pleased with the deck the whole day through. I made a good gamble to don’t have much against ANT or other storm cause I didn’t play them the whole day. Also I didn't run into Merfolk which is always nice. Only problem where the 2 Zoo matches. They where to close for comfort imho. Maybe, if Combo stays this low in my region, I'll make room for 3 BeB to help against Zoo and Goblins or 3 Kitchen Finks.
I'm thinking of picking up the deck again since ANT/Reanimator will lose some of their power.
I was always happy with the UWb version but since lands and possibbly Loam will be more viable again I would prefer playing straight U/W.
I took Konsultant's list (a few pages back) as a basis and I am stuck on a few issues:
Is Karakas + tolaria really needed anymore? I guess it depends on the metagame of course. But the real question is if you can just add a wasteland and a factory instead? Since both karakas and tolaria are still colored mana sources.
Is 4 colors for explosives really needed? I wouldn't want to skip on the third color (knight of the reliquary, some merfolk lords etc all come to mind). But 4 seems like a tall order only to target planeswalkers. Planeswalkers are not all that common in my metagame and Jace is not indestructible by any means. Oblivion ring would come out of the sideboard for dealing with those.
Jace has been discussed as a possible addition to this particular list and I can certainly confirm that in the more drawn out games (lands, mirror, possibly loam) it is a very good kill condition. I would want to include it and for me the most logical would be to play one instead of a FoF but Konsultant mentioned it would be better in an entire different slot. Which comes to mind?
For the sideboard I am currently looking at:
3 negate
2 kitchen finks
2 preacher (not sold on those, merfolk plays kira more often then not in my metagame to shore up their Zoo match-up)
3 oblivion ring (i.e. they replace vindicate from the UWb list and are moved to SB because I felt vindicate was only really useful PB)
2 meddling mage
3 faerie macabre (I like this card way better then artifact based gy hatred, it lacks in the ichorid match-up but I have very few of those anyway in my meta)
Any feedback/suggestion are welcome of course.
I'm running 2elspeth and 2 jace in my current list. It works good right now. I would say that Elsepth is better at controlling the board, and Jace at sealing the game. The -1 in the unsummon is a sad face. If the ability was +1 with unsummon, Jace might have been better than Elsepth. But the +1 cannot be neglected. Sometimes, its a difference of having the planeswalker survive 1-2 more attack. I really dont like DOJ anymore. Decks are faster and faster, and Control is pretty much dead in my area. I feel like replacing them with more removal. Of course, Standstill become significantly weaker. But as long as they dont have manland, as long as they dont know if you run or not DOJ, you still have advantage under Standstill. And usually, you putting more land is more advantageous than them putting more lands
In meta where land denial is agressive, I tend to stabilize my mana as much as I can. I believe Tolaria West + Karakas is no longer needed. Although it never hurts, especially if your meta doesnt feature too much land denial
Karakas and Tolaria West are definetly not NEEDED although I still keep both in my list. The Tolria West is really the stronger of the 2 as it fetch's any land in the deck, EE or the Crypt in the SB. It kinda works more like I want to run the Tolaria West so why not just fit in the Karakas if possable. If I was to cut Karakas I would consider Ruins as a replacement for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
Regarding the 4 colors for EE, No you definetly do not need 4 colors but I do believe you need atleast 2 lands in the deck that can produce a 3rd color in case you are playing against something like Merfolk or Goblins and your first off color dual gets wasted you still have one in the deck that may be needed to take out some 3 drops. Almost always people will color screw you with Wastelands whenever possable, I would reccomend playing atleast 2 off color lands and since I didn't play any off color cards and the duals were only to function for EE there is no reason not to play 2 different color duals. If you were running anything off UW obviously I would recomend running all duals for the appropriate color.
Personally I am just running Black as an off color with the entire MD being UW and Vindicate's in my SB. I did not test Oblivion Ring enough to really determine if Ring would be good enough but I have been very happy with the Vindicate's in the SB. Game 1 I get the incredably strong mana base of running UW and then for the post board games when I am know what I am playing against Vindicate's can come in as extra removal when needed.
I am running the 2x Jace although I do not love them. The Jace's came in and several other things have been tweaked throughout my entire list to accomodate for them. I am still running Decree, FOF and Elspeth. It took me awhile to get them to all work properly together and while I would still prefer to just run my list as I had it before I do admit I have been having amazing results with the list as I have it now. My post board results against pretty much anything I throw at it are retardedly in my favor with most match ups around 90% wins. Regretably my MD is very heavily tweaked to beat aggro control so while I blow out anything that that falls into the aggro control strategy my game one vs Combo is almost unwinnable unless I get very lucky. Straight aggro decks and control mirrors are alot closer to 50/50 for game 1 with greatly improved results post board. No matter what when we run a deck where half the deck is counters and the other half is removal we are going to have some game one difficulties when half of our deck is irrelevant to beating our opponent. Thankfully so many good players prefer to run aggro control whitch you almost have to try and lose it is so much in Landstill's favor.
Personally I haven't had the greatest results with the men out of the SB plan as various answers outside of Preacher being retardedly good vs aggro decks without creature removal. With regards to Kira vs Preacher, first off Kira is another solid example of when Karakas can be randonly really good but lets look at the circumstances around this scenario.
1. They have Kira and some men in play.
2. The question is "Is Preacher still any good"
3. You play Spot removal and Mass Removal in Landstill so factor in whether or not Preacher is relevant depending on what you may have in hand.
4. You have only spot removal and Preacher, Kira's ability counter's Preachers but it takes away the "Sheild" for turn allowing your spot removal to resolve. You are forced to target the creature of their choice but every creature is relevant and since this discussion is about Preacher I can pretty safely say Preacher does help the situation. You will eventually either get to the Kira itself or just draw 2 targeting removal spells to kill Kira and begin winning with Preacher.
5. You have spot removal and no Preacher, I believe this scenario is why they play Kira in the first place but it's not ideal for us.
6. You have mass removal and Preacher, You clear the board at -1 card advantage losing a Preacher. I would point out though that either you are retarded and played Preacher with Kira already in play or Preacher was already in play and should have already generated atleast some card advantage making this trade to clear the board not that bad overall.
7. You have mass removal and no Preacher, seems good for us.
8. You have both types of removal and Preacher. Play correctly and you probably can't lose.
9. You have both types of removal and no Preacher. Still in good shape.
Obviously without removal you are not gonna get there with or without Preacher. The point of Preacher is to help generate card advantage against horde decks that generate card advantage by not playing removal to include a higher creature count in their deck. We can't play an attrition war against Goblins or Merfolk who run 30+ creatures in some lists, we just don't play enough removal spells for it and good players won't just over extend into the loss of Wrath of God. Preacher forces them to over extend like crazy and they have no real way to kill him no to mention he provides us with a win condition against decks where it can be difficult to actually getting around to winning the game. If you are just playing removal it can be very hard to actually win the game against Merfolk with either Decree or Jace. Even Elspeth usually goes on the defense for along time before I can start attacking with men. With Preacher they either play no men, very good for us, or play several men allowing us to make informed decisions about where best to use removal and leaving us with something to end the game with before turn 20 something.