Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
wow, didnt see that tech until now! :eek:
Thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
wow, didnt see that tech until now! :eek:
Thanks!
Obviously there's scenarios where it can be stopped. My point is that it's extremely difficult to deal with Entreat, and as soon as you draw it they're normally just dead, regardless of what shenanigans they've been running up until that point. Naming random cards doesn't change the fact that Entreat beats just about everything once the game goes long enough. New toys are fun, and I've got 2 Mentors in my sideboard, but calling Entreat obsolete is silly. There's all sorts of cards, from Pyroclasm to Sulfur Elemental, that people could start jamming in their sideboards. Half the format is already on 4x Young Pyromancer, and if Miracles starts maindecking Mentors it shouldn't take long.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Hello guys, and fellow miracle players. :laugh:
(First of all, sorry for my bad english grammar)
Not so active in posting in this thread, but I'm long time lurker on forum and this topic too. Soon, there is gonna be local tournament in my place, and I've decided to play Miracles. I had adjusted my list to local metagame (2x merfolk, 1-2x dredge, 1x reanimator (with S&T's mainboard), 1x UG infect, 1x death and taxes, 1x GBW nic fit, Affinity, Jund and couple of homebrew decks like unsorted countertop -thopters, smallpox and so on. But the real contenders are merfolks, infect, dredge, reanimator nic fit, jund and affinity):
Here's the list:
Creatures (4)
3x Snapcaster mage
1x Vendilion clique
Instants (19)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of will
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Pyroblast
2x Lightning bolt
1x counterspell
1x dig through time
1x wear tear
Sorceries (7)
1x Entreat the angels
1x Council's judgement
2x terminus
3x ponder
Artifacts (4)
4x Sensei's divining top
Enchantments (2)
2x counterbalance
Planeswalkers (3)
3x Jace, the mind sculptor
Lands (21)
1x Karakas
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic island
3x island
1x plains
4x flooded strand
4x scalding tarn
2x arid mesa
SB(15):
1x E. tutor
1x E. canonist
1x blood moon
1x energy flux - tweaked for local metagame (affinity)
1x pithing needle
1x graffdigger's cage
1x tormod's crypt
2x peacekeeper - merfolks, dredge, infect, affinity, even reanimator (they probably side out elesh norn in G2)
1x wear tear - D
1x pyroblast
1x supreme verdict
2x flusterstorm
1x V. clique
Here's few words for card choices, and global thinking... (Don't wanna start talking about mentor miracles yet :P)
I know - list looks strange, and I am one of those miracle sinners who opt for changes and other ideas. :tongue::tongue:
Too many times i got incosistent, opening hands with multiple miracle cards without brainstorm, counterbalance hands without SDT and so on. We all know how frustrating is that (I know i'm not the only one with that opinion), and waiting for correct pieces to complete the puzzle someties means certain death because we are sitting and doing - nothing :(
So, despite my strange decklist tweaked for local tournaments I started to thinking. Bad hands forces us to mulligans, mulligans forces us to have suboptimal hands, and i want to maximize my chances of consistent hands.
- I choose to reduce some number of cbalances, terminuses and one entreat the angels. Uping 2 lightning bolt and one vendilion clique doesn't change my count of removal spells and cmc range, and they are not dead in my hands - Bolt can kill planeswalkers, can be flashbacked via snapcaster, and can even kill opponent in racing - none of that you can do with terminus. And also can surprise my opponents because it's unsuspected card. Today, people playing against miracles know how to play, at least most of them. They won't overextend with creatures, so from time to time, we are forced to cast terminus against just one creature. So i think split 2 Bolt-2 terminus is correct choice, even in the large open metagames.
- I shave down 2 counterbalances, because of the similar reason. I feel it's too suboptimal without SDT. I'm playing miracles for 3 years now, and always felt that way. Don't get me wrong - Cbtop lock is strong, but most experienced players know it's rare situation you will have it in your first, second or third turn. It's good on paper and theory, but in practice it's just to weak alone on the board without SDT, and relying on brainstorm in response to counter spells via cbalance triggers is not what you want in long game. I just think that 2 copies is right number, and with plenty of selection and shuffle effects you have great chance to find it when you need it.
- Wear tear maindeck. Yes, i dont know why this card is not played already in mainboard, since miracles have trouble to remove noncreature permanents in G1, and W-T seems the best alongside with council's judgement. It's even great when floating on top 3 cards of your library for counterbalance lock because it can counter 1 and 2 cmc spells. Removes equipments, sylvan library, omniscience, chalice of the voids #1, trinispheres, opposing cb-top, aether vials, needles, Ee/deeds, random problematic enchantments and artifacts and so on. I just think it deserves more attention of maindeck.. Maybe i'm wrong, but somehow it always finds purpse -if nothing, just for floating on top library for solid lock.
So i would like to discuss this opinion with experienced players, and of most i would appreciate advice from God of miracles - Phillipp Schonegger :smile:
Cut good cards, play bad cards. That's a bold move Cotton, lets see if it pays off.
what peculiar choices.
Isn't Ensnaring Bridge strictly better than Peacemaker?
It allows you to still cast Terminus in case of pesky hate bears.
It has no maintenance and no weakness to creature hate and small critter are not a problem because either you play Pyroclasm or you play Mentor..
What about 2 Cbalances in the 75? Everyone is playing cantrips and combo. Cbalance is at its peak in these days.
I told i tweaked some sideboard choices for local metagame, so is Peacekeeper (not maker :D). Bridge is better in wide open meta, but I think Pkeeper is more effective against merfolks, infect, dredge and affinity than bridge. At least from my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
As far as counterbalance, you may be right, maybe 2 is too low count, but is so frustrating to draw multiple copies without bstorms and tops so i was forced to take drastical changes and cut 2 from deck. I will report results from upcoming tournament, so we will see how it performs.
Having multiple CBs in play without Top or BS is still fine, you just have to use your fetchlands effectively. I just can't get my head around not playing four copies of it, as Poron said, it's at a peak at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
multiple CB are never bad in a world of Krosan Grip and Abrupt Decay.
Worst case scenario they can be pitched to FoWs
Well, the way things are going in this thread, we're just about on cue for someone to come in and argue the merits of Esper Miracles again.
Can we not call bad cards 'creativity'? We're seriously having a discussion about whether a card that is very good should be cut because sometimes you don't draw it and that sucks. What?!
But I want to play Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by FortyThree
and I want to play Wasteland here.
I want to waste that Boseiju/Karakas I always glare to.
I also want to waste that lonely Volcanic Island in 2lands Grixis after StP on Shaman..
Nowadays' decks are so greedy on mana that Wasteland has become a powerful mean of control. much better than Stifle.
But we have to go back to 22 lands, imho, and perhaps drop MD red.
So I have a question.
I currently have no legends in the MD, but 3 Clique in the SB. I'd love to have a Karakas in the manabase for them, as well as utility vs opposing legends, but I'm not sure there's another land to be cut. I'm not thrilled about shaving basics as I feel like being able to play off them is one of the decks strengths. Is cutting to 8 fetches a sin? Or maybe going down to 20 lands could be acceptable? Not keen on that either, though. If DTT is banned on Monday, the amount of Pyros might go down, so a Volc could be cut. I'm not sure to be totally honest. Thoughts?
Current manabase:
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 blue fetch
1 Arid Mesa
21 land
Deck for ref
3 Snapcaster
4 SDT
4 CB
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast
1 DTT
2 Jace
4 Terminus
2 Entreat
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 STP
4 FoW
1 C Judgement
I'd be more inclined to cut a basic than a fetch. 3 Islands/2 Plains is still enough for you to cast basically everything off of, or even 4 Island/1 Plains if you tweak your deck away from double-white spells. Keeping the number of fetches high will ensure you still hit the colours you need when you need them through Brainstorm/SDT, as well as providing fuel for DTT if it survives the banhammer. If Pyroblast is your only red spell, you might be able to cut a Volcanic, but I feel like having only 2 red sources is brittle against too many decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
JokeQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
____________
You
Anyway, some decks do drop the MD red (only have 2 Volcs for the SB cards). It's certainly a meta call, I might start playing a MD REB if my local meta becomes too blue.
Don't play Stifle. Our spells should either get us closer to winning the game or stop the opponent in their tracks. Stifle does neither, only delays. We are not a tempo deck, so we cannot play Stifle.
I don't know what you are usually playing against but in my meta and Gp Lille meta i never ever wished to come back to 22 lands and drop pyroblast from maindeck to play those sh***y wastelands, boseiju can be interacted putting a creature with an Etb for S&T and rebbing Omni in response to your creature's trigger, and Karakas is not worth not playing md pyro in a Dig heavy metagameQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
So come Jul 13, if one of the following cards is banned:
- Brainstorm
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Dig Through Time
- Counterbalance
- Terminus
Which one being banned will hurt this deck the most? I think there is a very good chance that at least ONE of those cards is banned, but probably not more than one. Which card being banned would hurt this deck the most? Which one would be easiest to find replacements for?
Top, BS and Terminus would kill the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Dig is by far the most obvious replacement.
I do hope DTT is banned. It would give us back our 2 Rips in SB as well as more answers to permanents MD
Brainstorm: BS getting banned nukes the deck, and means no more Terminus or Entreat. There probably would be a Counter-Top control deck in this new format, but who knows. I don't think anyone can predict what Legacy would look like w/o Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Top: You would never play CB or the miracles w/o top. A lot of people would probably shift to Stoneblade variants if they still want to play U/W/x control decks.
DTT: Legacy more or less reboots to pre KTK, where Miracles was the best deck. I think banning DTT actually helps Miracles.
Counterbalance: I could see a Mentor-Top control deck existing under this ban. You might see Gold Digger decks growing in popularity.
Terminus: You would have to drastically reconstruct the deck, but you still have Counter-Top. Supreme Verdict is not an adequate replacement for Terminus. This would push people even more toward Mentor aggro-control decks. Something like EE/Academy Ruins becomes very attractive in this scenario.
Hey Miracles players, I just picked up this deck like a week ago before SCG Baltimore. I went and played in it and got to 5-2-1. I got to play one of the top 8 players, Rob Long, whom I tied with that day, and also faced his brother, David Long after wards, who's infamous for playing Lands. How crazy is that? They both are good as shit at Magic. Anyways, I having trouble on Cockatrice with playing against BUG variant decks, aka BUG Delver/ Shardless BUG. What does one do in these matches and post board games? It seems their decks is strong against us with Abrupt Decay, and Liliana of the Veil. How do you play this match up? Anyone who has success in this match up can reveal some credible suggestions?
Banning Brainstorm would be insane, but if it happened Legacy would become combo vs anti-combo. Most midrange decks would cease to exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Banning Dig doesn't matter, since it isn't an important card. It is good, but losing it doesn't change the deck at all.
Any of the other three getting banned wipes miracles out and the deck as we know it is done.
This topic has been discussed a lot in the past already.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcosiem
http://www.eternalcentral.com/there-...y-sideboarding
Shardless BUG is totally different from BUG Delver, despite having the same color.
BUG Delver is more manageable than Shardless BUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcosiem
Against BUG Delver, the only card you *really* need to worry about is Abrupt Decay, though a DRS left unchecked can deal a decent amount of damage. Everything else you don't really care about because we have "infinite" board wipes are far as they are concerned. Don't be afraid to use CB as a UU Hymn to Tourach because they still do need to answer it with Abrupt Decay so often they will FoW if they can't remove it quickly enough. And that's fine for us. We love when our opponents play with very few cards in hand. Post board you want to bring in Blood Moon and Wear/Tear effects because you will see Null Rod/Pithing Needle, also bring in REB effects. I advocate keeping some number of CB in (no less than 3) but also bringing in stuff like Clique just to overload their Decays and pressure them. If you have Pithing Needle in your board, it's also a decent bring-in to name DRS.
Shardless BUG is a control mirror so prepare for a grindy MU with lots of Jace v Jace action. Keep in mind they are very counter-light (often they'll only have 4x FoW as their countermagic package) so an early Entreat (for even just 2) often just kills them. They do run Abrupt Decay as well, and can cascade into it which is annoying, but not the end of the world. Cards to look out from them are: Liliana, Hymn, Decay (can't play around this one, so jam your CB so they have to spend the Decay on that and not a 4/4 Angel), Ancestral Visions. CB is weaker here because their mana curve is all over the place, with more 2 and 3 drops than BUG Delver, meaning CB doesn't do *that* much. Post board here I would take out CBs and bring in Blood Moon (they do run basics so this one is 50/50 depending on how many basics you see them fetching game 1), Wear/Tear because you will see Null Rod/Pithing Needle/Sylvan Library (if it's not already in the main), Cliques to go over their creatures and apply pressure, as well as ripping cards out of their hand, and maybe Venser (if you have it) to bounce the cascaded spells and problematic permanents. REB effects are also strong here because it kills 2 of their creatures as well as stopping their Visions, and killing Jace. Pithing Needle can name Liliana or DRS, and getting them to use one of their Decays on it means 1 less to worry about for an Angel. Basically, against Shardless we have to be the aggressor because after a certain point in the game, it'll be nearly impossible for either deck to win, thus leading to a draw.
Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely curve my approach to these statements. It was so frustrating yesterday at my local game store in Montgomery County, MD at Dream Wizards, where I faced some really talented players in FMN Legacy. Both Long brothers were there doing work and Jarvis Yu was there too. I had to play 3 Miracles out of 4 of my rounds, and 2 of them were Rob, and Jarvis. If anyone has ever played against them, they are pretty good. Especially Jarvis. I manage to tie with Jarvis, and beating Rob, making my revenge sweet when he beat me at SCG Baltimore IQ, who was standing in my way from a top 8 appearance.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
There is too much Miracles in the field, and matches are going longer than expected now. Is Monastery Mentor and Angel's a viable option in the main now? Do we play both? And why not?
Fortunately it doesn't matter. And likely won't in the near future.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
What are the two worst match-ups for miracle?
12-Post, Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
Kind of ironic that a deck filled mostly with creatures is considered one of the worst matchups for a deck with 4 Terminus and 4 Swords to Plowshares. Wait, why is Goblins such a bad matchup for Miracles?Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Because Goblins player just needs to sand-bag a matron or a ringleader in his hand. Once you Terminus, it doesn't take much effort for Goblins to rebuild his board. All these Goblins are cast via Cavern or Vial-in. You have pretty much no interaction and CB is often a dead card. Some Goblins players like to skip Port and go for Settler + kiki to get rid of your lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
4 Terminus, 4 StP, 4 Mentor, 2+ Snapmage.
I disagree with Goblins being a bad matchup.
Who cares about Goblins, it's an irrelevant deck right now sitting in the back of our card collection. Miracles worst match ups are Mud, and Bug Delver.
Good luck having enough lands to cast all of those before you're run over by 3/3s thanks to lords. It's painfully obvious you've never played this MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Mentor might make the MU a little easier, but, again, good luck having 3 usable mana on turn 3, and even if you do, good luck with your single Mentor as he stares down 3 Goblins, each with a relevant ability.
Wow this is so blatantly wrong it's not even funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcosiem
4 Mentor isn't typical in Miracles yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Goblins was a poor matchup previously.
Ok thanks :)
Summarised 12-Post, BUG Delver and MUD are Miracles worst matchups. Is that right?
I dont count Goblins because it isnt a relevant deck in todays magic.
Reformed Goblins player here(still bust the terrible green guys out on occasion for fun though). Miracles is pretty much a bye. Terminus just means I get to cast my ringleaders twice. Cavern, Lackey & Vial just ignore counterbalance. Turn 3 piledriver is victory 90% of the time.
Place us in front of combo though...
This is why I saw the light and sleeved up the tops.
No. dcosiem has issue against BUG Delver, that's his opinion alone, not the community's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
If we see MU as (easier to hardest) bye - favorable - unfavorable - atrocious, then
BUG Delver (with or without stifle) - favorable
MUD - unfavorable
12 Post - atrocious
Goblin - atrocious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
The only card you listed that's good against goblins is Mentor, and IMO Mentor doesn't make matchup much better.
The Goblins matchup isn't fought on the axis you think it is. It's also not just bad it's abysmal.
Mentor might make it a little better... but I wouldn't count on it.
You have clearly never played the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I lost to goblins at the last SCG I was at (playing miracles). The goblins player was even on camera a couple times; if I remember correctly he destroyed Gerrad Fabiano on Camera. 12 post and goblins are the worst matchups. Merfolk is the next worst matchup for a similar reason to goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
MUD and BUG delver are not that bad. MUD is 50-60% favored depending on their exact build and how bad the miracles player is at sideboarding. UB Tezzeret is much worse. Its basically MUD but instead of playing 20 cards that die to any removal in our deck, they play 8-10 must answer walkers and thopter/sword combo both of which beat us very fast and we cannot interact with easily.
BUG Delver is even 50-40% to vs miracles. Grixis, Shardless BUG or BURG delver are have much better miracles matchups. I'd gladly play against BUG delver all day.
Worst matchups:
12 post 95%
Goblins 80%
Merfolk 75%
UB Tezzeret 75%
Infect, Shardless, BURg, Grixis Control, MUD 50-60%
Pretty much everything else is even or favored.
12 Posts and MUD are the worst matchups ever: 9-1
Goblin and Merfolks are very bad 8-2
Cascade (no Team America), Grixis, Tezzeret are bad 7-3
Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam and Lands are hard 6-4
All the rest is playable 5-5