I find Prelates to be my favorites vs Lands (on 2), Miracles (On 1), Show and Tell (on 3), and Burn (on 2)Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
None of those matchups would I want Canonist instead.
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I find Prelates to be my favorites vs Lands (on 2), Miracles (On 1), Show and Tell (on 3), and Burn (on 2)Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
None of those matchups would I want Canonist instead.
guys, what about punishing maverik?
Is it fallen out of flavour but shouldn't it be quite strong right now?
where can I check an updated list if anyone is still testing it out?
Hey NegatorITAQuote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
i have played pfire maverick the last 2 months and it was indeed very strong
check out my latest list:
PFire
list was ok back then, i dunno what i would change here, because i switched back to GWb with Crucible Snake..
interesting that you switched back with Crucible snake, which is indeed, a card I'd like to hear about, looks very powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
Why the change? I mean, what make you think going crucible-snake will be better than punishing fire?
The opponent doesnt have to do anything, The likely hood of you getting those 5-6 cards in opening is extreamly unliky and it does nothing to stop combo decks. Im all for looking at the best case scenario but within reason. You wouldnt run 4 exploration, and without that consistency its unlikely you'll see it much. playing lands from grave is great but without extra land drops is not AMAZING.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Also, you may untap with that much mana, but then have nothing to cast with it....
IMO punishing maverick is just a worse version of loam decks. It's like halfway there but connot execute either deck's strategy that well. Im not saying its bad but Id rather devote to a strategy than play something like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
You can say the same exact thing about maverick in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
I get what you're saying but there are no other KoTr decks beside maverick and loam so I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Hi Everybody.
I tested a lot after sensei's ban. And I find out the following list:
4x Mother of Runes
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Noble Hierarch
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliqary
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Thargtusk
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Renegade Rallier
Non-land, Non-creature:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Collective Brutality
Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
3x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Gaea’s Cradle
1x Cavern Of Souls
Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
2x Choke
3x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deludge
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Blessed Alliance
I will talk about choices beyond the normal shell:
Thargtusk: he is one of our 3 BIG finisher. I thought his mana cost could be a problem, but with 22 lands, 1 Dryad and 5 mana dork We can cast it easily. is a Great card vs BUG, Jund (all the midrange deck), burn and control deck (like topless miracle). We can side it out vs grixis and all the other tempo deck, and obv Combo and lands.
Chameleon Colossus: Simply AMAZING. In the current meta is the right choice, for long time I was looking for a good Cc4 silver bullet that can be fethced with GSZ and I finally found it,specially in this meta full of Fatal Push, Decay, Gurmag Angler, Shaman, Strix and Leovold. He is protected from random pulse/Dismember too, against BUG is really strong and vs grixis as well (we have cavern to make it uncounterable and post sideboard, he is even more powerful, because our opponent Non-black threats are blowed up from our zealous/deludge). With Cradle it becomes enormous, try it and you will never go back!
Collective Brutality, I was looking for a 7th spot removal, and I realized that brutality is really great in this deck. It kills Delver, Shaman, any burn, elves D&T creatures (and it gives you 2 life), Confidant, strix, Pyromancer and many other annoying stuff. We can easily activate escalation by discarding any Thalia in excess, Gaddock in usefless MU (basically Any mother other than Comb/miracle) and Lands in excess. AND is the only removal useful against Combo deck, because it becomes a discard effect ;) post sb it is the fourth discard effect against combo deck and control deck (we board in 3x Seize), really powerful, we can even think to move up to 2 MD
Renegade Rallier: I love it, better than the new crucible with leg, it's a surprise effect, it allw you to do 2/3 wasteland (if u have even an active Knight) in a turnn, u don't need a crucible, once that u wasteland your opponent 3 time in a turn the game is won anyway, plus it allow you to make a great board advantage, by "reanimate" your little beast or a Jitte/Library, insane.
Big Exluded:
Tireless Tracker. Now that Miracle i no more a tier 1, I think that this card is less powerful, specially in a meta full of tempo deck, a 3/2 Cc 3 that can be countered easily by daze and that can be kiled by Bolt, forked bolt and any other reomval in the format. Is too slow does not impact the game the turn that you drop it down
sylvan safekeepr: same story of Tracker, without too many miracles around, we don't need to lock our opponents with Keeper-Gaddock. Mother of runes gained value again, and i moved up to 4 of them. The foourth mom replaced Sylvan Safekeeper.
Thalia Heretic Catar:
I love this card, really, but I can't find any space MD to insert her. Is good against Elves and Eldrazi (not played anymore) and ok vs Sneak and Show, but is not so impacting against other deck, she gives you time but is not resolutive.
Sanctum Prelate: we already have a good MU in combo pre and post sideboard, and I don't want another drop at 3, specially with WW in the mana cost. I think is just a cool card that people want to insert because is new, I tested it and I dropped after a month.
Stoneforge Mystic: I simply hate, I'm playing Maverick since the ban of survival, and are more or less 3 years that I'm not running SFM in the 75 and I think is the best choice that I have ever had.
Horizon Canopy: Yes I know, it could sound like a Blasphemy, but now that Daze is back again I prefer to run MD Caver of souls in order to make our humans uncounterable
Sideboard choices:
well is a pretty standard sideboard, the only card that I'm not sure about is Garruk Relentless. Maybe we don't need it, I'm still testing it, bringing it in vs midrange, Delver.deck and Lands
Blessed Alliance: really good vs burn, Lands (bye bye Marit Lage), and TNN decks. Anyway I bring it in vs any deck with creatures, is unexpected and u can do funny combat tricks with the "untap" effect as well (MOR and KOTR anymore?)
What do you guys think about?
To follow the topic, I tested a lot Punishin Maverick, I think is just a less powerful version of the other versions. Is stronger vs Jace.deck but this version loose ppower vs combo deck, the anti-sinergy between Thalia and P.fire is just an heartbreak! U gain good card like Huntmaster of the fells, but I think that if you want to play a midrange deck with red you should play Jund, it has more sinergy and broken cards like Broodbraid elf!
Interesting take. But if I wanted a 4cc beater, I'd go with Thrun over the Chameleon Colossus.
While the colossus is an interesting idea, Thrun doesn't need Cavern to be uncounterable and is immune to all removal (with the exceptions of Council's Judgment, Damnation, Terminus, Deluge, and often Liliana's -2, all of which also kill the colossus anyway). Immunity to Jace's -1 and the regeneration ability is also nice. Synergy with our own Karakas is an occasional perk.
Love the Thragtusk, though. Brings back fond memories of my favorite standard format :tongue:
...Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
.....
.......
Alright, I'll troll myself.
Without writing a bunch of paragraphs.. It's a 3 card combo, 1 of which can be GSZ or Noble, one of which can be GSZ or Excavator or Courser. That's not a very specific hand. You don't count *regular lands* in that scenario, because that's a requirement for all hands. Mav gets double ramp hands all the time.
I'm not sure why you're using the combo argument in a *maverick* thread about a 1-2of; but there's no reason you couldn't run 4 Exploration if you ran 1-2 REx and 1-2 Courser, given they are both pretty wild with it.
Also, the scenario given was an *alternative* scenario to the nice waste-out scenario. Any of the following are very good T2/T3 plays with the 3 card combo mentioned:
* wasteland
* SFM or natural Equip
* GSZ or natural [insert fat dude, probably titania]
In the aforementioned 3 card combo, something that I'm not suggesting will happen all the time [but could be made to happen at a 25% rate or something in addition to other nice openings Mav can have], you get +2 CA; which is pretty darn good; and not only is it +2 CA, but either one results in being ahead your mana by ~2 as well (double waste or double fetch) which is pretty fancy.
I think it'd be better in a deck designed to do it, but it could be that a future evolution of maverick is that deck.
Just out of curiosity, do you have experience playing maverick?Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I agree with you, but the point is that I don't run any swords in my list (fire/ice, light shadow). Thrun without any sword on it is nothing more than a wall. He doesn't have any protection from colors and is just a 4/4, when he block he doesn't kill any gotf, Smasher, Gurmag. Is true that he can regenerate but he doen't help you to finish the game. Colossus can Block all this creaturw and can be pumped, in order to kill them. Plus in a meta where the dominant color is black he often becomes a winning condiction, both alone and specially alongside a MoR. The following turn after u cast it is an 8/8, if u have a bounch of creatures and a cradle, it might become a 16/16 and it's game. Against control deck Thrun is obv better than colossus, but he can resolves so many situations and MU where thrun would be totally useless (or just a wall that helps you to survive a couple of turns, waiting for a resolutive topdeck).Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyod17
Talking about the new crucible with leg. I tried it and I find out that with all those Shamans around i not so powerful as it seems. First of all: with a shaman in play opponents start to remove the lands that do something from your GY (wasteland, canopy, a wasted cradle ecc ecc). Second point: do we really need another ramp effect? I mever had problems with lands with this shell. I run 22 lands (1 cradle) plus 5 dorks, Dryad Arbor and 4 GSZ. Rallier can be used to ramp already and Scryb and Knight hel us with the ramp plan a lot. I feel like we are just adding a 2/3 that does what we can perfectly do without him already. By having a free slot we can add a Big creature that hel us to finish the game faster or a planeswalker like Elspeth that gives flying to our fatties.
And rock decks? I'm not really getting what you are trying to say. Because there are no other knight decks, maverick can't be worse than 4c Loam? I'm sure the spread of matchups is roughly the same for both decks across the board but in the end with 4c loam you can fall back on the Fire or Loam engines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
A.) The two decks are very different and saying they are similar just because both run Knight of the Reliquary is like saying that Maverick is like elves just because we run Deathrite and Greensuns.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
B.) Let's try and focus on how to improve decks instead of just talking about how weak/strong we think Maverick is.
C.) I personally see Aggro Loam as usually just a bad lands player who wanted more creatures to attack with more than a Maverick player who decided 36 lands, Mox diamond, and less threats and less tutor effects and more susceptible to grave hate with less ability to protect the few threats it does have. But to each their own.
i think the reason why i switched back to GWB is because of the better sideboard cards in blackQuote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
and because of Thalia, GoT in MB - its just a good feeling when you can tax the opponent. (especially all sorts of combo decks)
with punishing fire it is easier to beat most fair decks thats fact.
but when it comes down beating unfair decks like elves for example, against a good player like Julian Knab -
than it doesnt make a difference. a few weeks ago we made like 20 games and he beat me approx 16/4
even if i had the engine running..
now im back to GWB and test 2 Ramunap Excavators, a Courser of Kruphix and a singelton Ghost Quarter.
its fine but every matchup against an active deathrite shaman hes just an 2/3 beater.
at the moment i play 2 noble hierarch and 3 Shamans - but eventually i will test to play 3 noble / 2 shaman and a singelton phyrexian revoker to stop opponents shamans...
will see in future testing.
This is the list im currently running and i have had a decent amount of sucess. Wanted to know everyones opinion since im going to a large tournament this weekend and wanted some help fine tuning it.
4x mother of runes
4x deathrite shaman
1x birds of paradise
1x qasali pridemage
1x scavenging ooze
1x scryb ranger
1x gaddoc teeg
3x thalia, guardian of thraben
2x stoneforge mystic
4x knight of the reliquary
1x renegade rallier
1x ramunap excavator
2x thalia, heretic cathar
4x Green suns zenith
4x swords to plowshares
1x sylvan library
1x umezawas jitte
1x sword of fire and ice
1x batterskull
4x windswept heath
3x wooded foothills
1x plains
1x forest
2x bayou
2x savannah
4x wasteland
1x ghost quarter
1x maze of ith
1x cavern of souls
1x dryad arbor
1x karakas
Sideboard
2x ethersworn canonist
2x thoughtsieze
2x zealous persecution
2x surgical extration
1x farie maccabre
1x pithing needle
1x enginered plague
1x garruk relentless
1x armageddon
1x disenchant
1x abrupt decay
Overall i really like the deck. Being really toolboxy helps, and excavator wasteland/ghost quarter can punish decks that try to fetch basics against wasteland. Im going to be adding a scrubland to the list and potentially a horizon canopy. Wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions on what to add/ change before this weekend. Any help would be appreciated
@Magnaguard100
nice list!
if you own a gaeas cradle than i would swap this for Maze of Ith.
i would swap Batterskull to the sideboard (i find it too clunky and i hate it when grixis/jund plays Kolaghans Command against me)
instead of disenchant i would go with either Reclamation sage or Krosan Grip.
i dont like the armageddon and would add Chokes here
:smile:
Unfortunatly i dont own a cradle, but thats a long term pickup i want to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
What would you replace batterskull with? Another creature or a spell/land?
Main reason i like disenchant is because its 2 mana so its 1 turn faster vs chalice decks. I like rec sage, but im always afraid of humility, and i have no outs to that, but krosan grip is a possibility
I used to run choke, but against all the miracles lists they would disenchant it and i wouldnt have any value. Armageddon has won me a bunch of games against control lists where i develop a board and then geddon making my knight huge/ garruk making tokens took over thr game, but i understand chokes power.
If i were to put the batterskull in the board, what would i cut in the board for it?
Without Top in the format, I'm a bigger fan of Armageddon now than before. Too often I've lost or have seen maverick players lose when casting Armageddon only for Miracles to draw with top, cast terminus, then cast snapcaster mage or vendillion clique (that only needs 3-4 mana fyi), and then die to marsh viper beats with no lands in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaguard100
Now that things have to be more fair I'm a bigger fan of the Armageddon plan.
Ramunap excavator is amazing. I think it's an auto include in any deck playing green and 4 wasteland/1 ghost quarter. Being able to fetch it up with GSZ may have brought Maverick to a higher tier.
So overall you feel that having qhost quarter in the deck is really good. Thats good to know. I played the mirror last week, and he agressivly fetched his basics so i blew them up and then wasted him out with excavator/rallierQuote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
My main thing is do we still want cavern/maze? Cavern was great during the counterbalance era but now seems a little less relavent, but its still good vs chalice, and other decks being able to force though a mom or thalia vs delver decks. Maze is sort of the same way. Its great at stopping mariat lage, grisslebrand, and the like, but there are times when having it is not relvent/ bad since it doesnt produce mana, and haing 5 colorless sourcess+cavern which always cant tap for what you want+maze can sometimes feel like im choked on colors.
i have played maze the last time about 5 years ago - and dont miss it in maverick.
i used cavern as a singelton against miracles back then and dont find the need anymore
it can be great sometimes for sure but i found the problem is when you have to name
a creature type other than human than its bad later when you can only produce colorless mana.
my manabase looks like this at the moment and i find it very solid. (nothing special)
2 forrest
1 plains
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
7 fetch lands
1 karakas
1 gaeas cradle
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter
i must say that i always play 2 SFM and only 1 Jitte and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice lately
and batterkull will not help me that much in my matchups i face these days. im fine without it.
the reason i always play 2 qasali pridemage is because its great against any kind of challice of the void and equipment etc.
against which decks would you bring in armageddon? 4 mana cost is a lot and than you have to find the perfect timing.
i think you will cast chokes more often than armageddon (and come on we play 4 wasteland and maybe a ghost quarter - that should be enough for the most decks)
thats just my opinion and expierence i made the last years. :smile:
Ok. So in that case il cut the maze and cavern for a scrubland and horizon canopy, and cut batterskull for another pridemage. Is dryad arbor part of that mana base or are you including it in your creature spot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
i would recommend that you try this manabaseQuote:
Originally Posted by Magnaguard100
i have count dryad arbor as a creature
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
could you post your whole deck list at this point?
sure, but this is still in testing phaseQuote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
2 forrest
1 plains
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
7 fetch lands
1 karakas
1 gaeas cradle
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter
1 dryad arbor
3 deathrite shaman
2 noble hierarch
3 mother of runes
1 sylvan safekeeper
4 thalia, got
2 qasali pridemage
2 stoneforge mystic
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 scrybranger
4 knight of the reliquary
2 ramunap excavator
1 courser of kruphix
4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
--> courser is somehow overperforming these days and i dont miss sylvan library....
sideboard:
3 thoughtseize
2 ethersworn canonist
1 sanctum prelate
2 zealous persecution
1 toxic deluge
1 abrupt decay
1 reclamation sage
2 surgical exctraction
2 choke
Really? I love library. Every single time ive had it in play its been phenomenal. Are you running 2 excavators because of the sylvan safekeeper? Overall do you think rec sage is better than grip/disenchant? I have a overwhelming fear of humility hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
My list is near-identical, with only the following changes: I run 2 Bayou, for which you run 1 and then 1 Ghost Quarter (added); you run a 2nd Qasali and a Courser, for which I run a 4th DRS and 4th Mother of Runes; I run 1-of Sylvan Library, but no Safekeeper; and I run a Thalia, HC in place of a 2nd Excavator. I am extremely curious to see how Maverick lists are faring with the 4:1 package of Wasteland: Ghost Quarter these days. Is the mana base still stable? The rest of it looks solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
Fearing humility is non-sense. Not because Humility isn't good vs Maverick, but because the deck humility is in should be what you're fighting against and not specific cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaguard100
What Humility decks are you afraid of, and how often is Humility what kills you as opposed to all the other cards being cast before Humility?
Just for context, I played against a Nic-Fit deck recently that used Academy Rector to land a turn 5 Overwhelming Splendor on me. He died to my army of 1/1 beaters.
Why?
Because Humility does not kill creatures, it just weakens them. Unless the opposing deck is also doing SOMETHING ELSE, then oftentimes Humility just gives them 2-3 turns more before dying. Not even that if you have equipment.
Tried this list last night (except the sideboard bog was something else). Cut a mom cause I don't know what else to get rid of (like 2 qasali for my meta). I really want to add a fatal push or something because not being able to kill a turn 1 deathrite shaman feels awful and ruins the mana denial plan. Should I just go with another abrupt decay? Would need to add another Bayou probably. I also might just buy a Cradle finally. Tempted to try a Courser because I don't like losing to burn and he would help somewhat.
Creatures (26)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Renegade Rallier
Spells (9)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Lands (22)
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Reclamation Sage
the manabase is very stable in my configuration when going with 4 Wasteland/1 Ghost Quarter.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoryCraft
i always fetch for basics and only search my black sources when needed.
i would always play 4 mothers - but when running 2 Excavators i just have to play a Safekeeper.
courser is in the spot for library at the moment.
i think you have to include at least 2 copys of every non-green hatebear to get a better chance to find it - 2 thalia HC are better than 1 random.
i run Rec Sage because in my meta there are omni sneak players, food chain and a lot of grixis (baleful strix) and therefore its probably better than just 1for1
(nobody plays humility :laugh: )
Whats the main reason why people dont run maze? Doesnt it help out vs rieanimator, mirran crusader, delver, things of that naturem the reason im asking is i want to run horizon canopy or maze but not sure which
Maze is fine, but most decks that it's good against also play 4 Wasteland and/or stifles. I might get you there, but it might just get killed by one very common land in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaguard100
Also, if you do play it, you must count is as a spell and not a land since it cannot even produce colorless mana (unlike something like thespian stage which is still a land). Thus Maze vs Canopy are extremely different, so much I would never consider one over the other.
In that case would you recommend keeping maze, or cutting maze for a spell and add a canopy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
4 mom
4 drs
1 birds
3 thalia got
1 ooze
1 teeg
1 scryb ranger
1 pridemage
4 kotr
1 excavator
1 tracker
2 thalia HC
4 gsz
4 swords
1 library
1 jitte
1 sofi
4 windswept
3 verdant
2 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 forest
1 plains
4 waste
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 maze
1 cavern
21 mana producing lands is the bare minimum imo but since you also have Cavern and GQ, you have a lot of colorless. In your case I would play a canopy instead to make the land count 22 (Arbor is most of the time a mana dork rather than a land).
I personnally play 22 but I have been on 21 before and I did not notice it too much although I didn't have that much colorless.
It's also worth noting that Reanimator, Delver and Death and Taxes are all favorable match-ups as is and don't need additional help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaguard100
I'm a big proponent of running Maze of Ith.
I'm also a big proponent of running 60 cards.
Sometimes the reason is to cut Maze is not because it isn't powerful enough, but simple because something needs to get cut.
Whoops. Forgot to include the 2 sfm. One of my friends who is a prominent player said to keep maze and cut tracker for canopyQuote:
Originally Posted by TMagpie
You also probably don't want more than six 3drops max unless you up the count of mana dorks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnaguard100