That's pretty sweet, I never considered that. Makes it slightly less narrow, but still a bit narrow. Easy way to kill a Batterskull germ!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
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That's pretty sweet, I never considered that. Makes it slightly less narrow, but still a bit narrow. Easy way to kill a Batterskull germ!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Also there are cases where you want to attack through Baleful Strix.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
I'd still only run it if you have both land tutors -and- expect a lot of blade or DnT decks.
for those of you running Nyx Fit- have you tried Serra's Sanctum? The Towers seems to hamstring color enough, but I was just pondering.
I plan on bringing Nyx to the next weekly. I also wanted to give Aura of Silence a shot. If anyone on Nyx Fit can post a mana base that has been working well for them, I'd really appreciate it.
I don't think Sanctum is going to help the deck very much. You normally don't have many enchantments out, and if you do then you are already in a winning position. You mainly want to get Sterling + Starfield and then start recurring stuff, at which point you are pretty safe. First Rector activation is usually for something to keep you alive such as Deed or a game-changer like Humility/Doomwake, second priority is the Starfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by amppyou
This is close to what I've been using for mana:
3 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
7 Fetch (4 Verdant, 3 Windswept)
Could see a 7th basic though instead of the 3rd bayou. Ever since adding Parallax Wave and having Humility main, having 2 Plains is very good.
A key part of the BG builds I'm finding is the ability to Crop Rotation for Phyrexian Tower. I suppose you could always just run more towers too, but I like having the toolbox. Especially since removal on the power level of Path/StP isn't available in BG, as a result I can use the tutors to help with the removal situation using Maze of Ith.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
I only have 1 Crop Rotation right now, but I'm trying hard to find a slot for a second copy. I like the land in theory for the SB as D&T is very popular and has become harder with the addition of 3 mana Thalia. The only question is if I would rather have it MB vs a Cavern or a basic.
Please continue to update with how CR tests out! I've been mulling it over for a while but it seems vulnerable to Daze / Force if you haven't got a Cabal Therapy. Seems like an amazing way to get extra mileage from Two Towers and / or Karakas though, and could be amazing in improving combo consistency for Sneak Fit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I'm looking for a little bit more advice on the following, thanks in advance!
1. Cabal Therapy against Eldrazi: I name Chalice on the play, but if they haven't dropped a Chalice and you still have a Therapy do you typically go for Mimic, Thought-Knot, or Smasher (and why)?
2. Cabal Therapy against Grixis Delver: I name Cabal Therapy on the play, but don't have a preference on the draw - I suppose Therapy still? What about later in the game?
3. How do you guys like to sideboard and Therapy against Aggro-Loam? There's a very talented player in my meta that runs it nearly every week.
If I have a valuable card in hard and the rest of it is kind of meh (like a sole GSZ) then I'll name Thought-Knot. Else Smasher usually gets the nod unless I can tell they would have already played it out. Most games against Eldrazi, you will lose due to not being able to contain a quick Smasher (or two).Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
1: Yeah, I almost always name Thought-Knot.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
2: I name Brainstorm on the play, Therapy on the draw is a decent option though. Later on it just kind of depends on the board state, honestly.
3: For Therapy I typically name Knight of the Reliquary. Sideboarding depends on version, obviously. If you're on my Sneak list, though, I would look at the Surgicals and the To the Slaughters specifically.
I think I'm going to drop the Cavern of Souls. The next thing I'm going to try is adding a creature land. Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village, or Hissing Quagmire are the options. Factory is ETB untapped which lets it become a surprise blocker, but Village is colored mana and is the best body of the bunch. In what seems like a distant third due to the activation cost, there's Quagmire which is both colors of mana and can trade with anything. I think the first two options are the best. I'm going to give both of them a try and see which I like more.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
Also, Ash Barrens hasn't been the best, I think it will work out better once I use it in some Blood Moon decks but switching it back to the 8th fetch is looking pretty appealing. In practice I'm never using the land cycling and it's just functioning as a drain on my basics. Using the cycling actively makes STE/Vet worse.
Is it possible that you don't need any special lands for Crop Rotation to be good? It seems like increasing the odds of 4+ mana T2 (through Phyrexian Tower) or a way to get Volrath's Stronghold at Instant Speed is already valuable. Karakas as a way to save one of your legends or brick Reanimator / Lands could be great without having to play man-lands that don't see a ton of eternal play. I'm also having trouble envisioning a scenario where I'd get a Treetop Village over a Stronghold - they're both a way to get extra value from lands in a grindy matchup, but Stronghold can bring back Thragtusk or Rhino or Steve or Witness for endless value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Thanks, I'll give it a try! Probably won't get a chance to jam legacy again until around the New Year but Sneak continues to impress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Hey. Been lurking since the first iteration of this thread. I really appreciate all the hard work and generous attitude of the members on this thread. Makes for an enjoyable read every time.
I played straight GB for a long time and turn 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter off of Vet + Tower was always one of the strongest plays. Garruk and Grave Titan were the top of my curve and there was often an audible expletive when they hit the table.
On the topic of Treetop Village, it's nice to have a threat that miracles has to deal with that can "hide" from terminus for large parts of the game, but I always hated having it in opening hands because of the CitPT.
Additionally, I ran a couple innocent blood. Was always great against delver and good for setting off our own Vets. I could see it being good against eldrazi, but the turn one Chalice that they always seem to have is probably a turn off. Diabolic or even Chainers might just be better edicts against them.
It's possible. I thought a creature land would work well, but in testing it's been a little too clunky (could still be good against Miracles). It goes back to what I said a few posts back that with the risk of Crop Rotation, and the fact you're giving up a land that it feels like you really need to be able to derive value off the card right away. Creature lands take a little longer for that to happen so I think they're too slow. In a long game, you can get a similar effect from getting Volrath's and returning anything in your GY to play and in a short game you don't really want to dump the mana into activations.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
Karakas is something else I was considering. I've liked Maze of Ith so far, but Maze basically costs you 2 mana (sacrificed land, new land that doesn't provide mana) so it's definitely not free. On the other hand, even Mishra's Factory costs 4 mana (-1 crop rotation, -1 land, 1 activation, 1 buff) so Maze is pretty cheap. Karakas has a lower cost but also a lower ceiling.
I'm currently leaning towards the 7th basic being best with Karakas in certain metas or out of the SB.
This is the manabase I'm currently evaluating
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
Karakas, Cavern, and Treetop interest me as SB options, but I think 3 lands in the SB is too many.
Options for the Crop Rotation #2 are removing Maelstrom Pulse #1 or Top #3.
-------------------------------
Echelon, it's your turn to empty your inbox.
Edit: Basic #7 is working fantastic. It feels much stronger than the other options.
Hi all,
I've been playing Legacy for a while now, but Grixis Delver (while an excellent deck) is becoming a little conventional for me. So I'm interested in trying out Nic Fit.
I've read through the primer and the last few pages of threads, but I have one kind of open-ended question: is there a 'baseline' build right now? I know that there's a ton of room for experimentation, but it would be nice to get my feet wet with something that's been tested recently, isn't too crazy, and is a good place to start before branching out.
Your 'baseline' is:
4 veteran explorer
4 cabal therapy
Basic lands
Fatties
Add whatever else you like :)
The core of the deck is 4 Veteran Explorer/4 Cabal Therapy. Beyond that you have a lot of freedom, GSZ fits into most builds pretty well but isn't a requirement if you're less focused on green. I think the closest thing we have to a stock build is to play a 4 Siege Rhino build. There's a bunch of other builds depending on what you're trying to do, but that's about as close to a baseline as you can get. Anything else, at it's core is just trying to out rhino the rhino.Quote:
Originally Posted by ObligatoryReference
Done!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
@Nic Fit baselines - Yes, this deck can play pretty much whatever it wants, but to be somewhat competitive one does have to be critical of ones list. Attractive as it may seem, some cards simply are better than others and you have to run some necessary evils in order to get the deck to run consistently and smoothly. Trust me, I know. I used to run Fierce Empath + Karador, Ghost Chieftain (and it was epic).
@Brael: Have you considered stuff like Tranquil Thicket? It sucks in your opening 7, but lategame you can just trade it in for a new card (and could even form a draw engine w/ Two Towers/Meren + Phyrexian Tower + Eternal Witness). Or drop a land and substitute an Altar's Reap. It's a nice instant speed out to one of your Confidants, it blanks your opponents' removal and forms an even neater engine w/ Meren + Eternal Witness.
I'd say there is a larger core than that. Some of it does get dropped, but you generally need a very good reason to do so.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Other ramp creature (STE or Deathrite)
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
I'd say most builds can start there and do well. Sometimes cards get flexed in or out, but the above is a pretty consistent core and you'll do well not changing it unless you have a specific build in mind.
I hadn't considered cycling lands. I'm not sure when I would want it. One of the goals with the deck is to get up to 9 mana (happens surprisingly easily) so that you can double activate colossus and still activate SDT. Crop Rotations function as an out to Confidant already if you need one, since they can always get Tower to sacrifice him. Crop Rotation basically does everything. It can get "removal" with Maze of Ith, sac outlets with Tower, ramp with Tower, recursion with Stronghold, color fixing with Bayou, feeds DRS, gets a surprise blocker with Arbor, pumps Meren counters, and shuffles for Courser/Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'm not sure when I would want the cycling land. I definitely don't want to see it in my first 3 land drops, and once I get up to 6+ I would probably rather cycle it than use it as a land. I think the 7th basic works better. I've been running into issues where I can't ramp hard because I have a basic heavy hand and the extra basic in the deck helps with that.
In general though, I don't think you can be scared of Bob, the deck has a low curve for a reason. I just dealt myself 7 and the hand was Tower, Bob x2, SDT, Explorer, Catacombs, Deed. Basically a perfect hand. That's 2x Bob on T2 with an active Top. You're basically guaranteed to get 3 cards off that, more if the opponent is removal light. Plus what they trade for, and a Deed to reset everything after they die. Over the course of this game 2 Bobs combined did 5 damage by turn 5, and by turn 5 I was also up to 11 mana available thanks to the Tower and some recycled Vets.
Random Brew Time:
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Boseiju, who Shelters All
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Beast Within
1 To The Slaughter
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Burning Wish
2 Dark Petition
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard:
1 Seasons Past
1 Slaughter Games
1 Massacre
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
6 misc actual sideboard cards
Grind with dudes, removal and discard. Dark Petition gets Deluge, TTS, Liliana. Probably run a 1-of Lost Legacy out of the sideboard, but it could go maindeck. Boseiju might want to be in the sideboard.
Deck has infinite inevitability with Burning Wish -> Seasons Past + Dark Petition recursion. Not great against graveyard hate, but we have a million answers to Deathrite and it's not like we'll have time for game two to get anywhere near finishing anyway.
The bodies in your list seem to match up poorly against Beast Within.
Maybe consider Crop Rotation too? It's an instant which plays well with Huntmaster, opens you up to more ramp using Tower, and is an easy one to cast for spell mastery when you want Dark Petition.
Beast Within is pretty necessary for its ability to kill lands, which Maelstrom Pulse doesn't, and if we're playing for the lategame we need solutions to the Lands matchup. It gets swept up by Deed at least, but a Jund Vindicate would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
That's part of what I'm using Diabolic Edict for. You don't get to blow up a Dark Depths, but you do make Marit Lage sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
And just to push the idea again, Crop Rotation lets you Maze of Ith the Marit Lage, or even a large Tracker.
I guess To The Slaughter does the job, and we have Wish -> Slaughter Games to stop them Loaming it back forever. Might be worth dropping Beast Within for more Kolaghan's or Top or similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I don't like Maze into a Wasteland deck.
@Echelon, @Navsi: Thanks for the advice!
After some fiddling and a bit of testing, I'm trying this to start:
2 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Nissa, Vital Force
SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Pithing Needle
I kind of like the toolbox approach, but if I continue down that path I'd probably want at least one other tutor - any suggestions?
You may find that you want 3 Forest and only 2 Swamp. That is more standard. Green is generally the most important on T1.Quote:
Originally Posted by ObligatoryReference
Why the main Finks? Is burn heavy in your locale?
Sent from mobile.
You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by ObligatoryReference
Shave some fat, add some speed. Kitchen Finks is a Birthing Pod card, 3 6-drops is way too much seeing as a single Sigarda is usually enough to close the game. And what MDHackbert said about the manabase, especially if you run AD over PtE.
As for tutors, there's Diabolic Intent, but you should only run that if you do your sudokus in pen.
Nissa, Vital Force and Tireless Tracker are no core cards, they are new additions, but not always there. the cards are good, don't get me wrong ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I would suggest as core of the deck:
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Srubland
2 Swamp
8 Fetches
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Deacy
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zennith
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Path to Exile
There 45 cards give you a lot of room to explore. There are maybo not the core of more funky builds like Scapewish, Sneaky Fit or Bithing Pod variants. Mostly the list is completed by some creatures like Siege Rhino, Sigarda and Thragtusk.
Core isn't necessarily white.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderanders
2 Plains is only important if you're running Sigarda
Ooze is only relevant if you're in a GY heavy meta or you are planning on beating down with dudes as your primary wincon, in which case Tireless is more of a core card than Scooze.
Nissa VF is a card that's good in all versions of the deck. You need a good reason to not be playing her.
You've listed the Rhinos core with the Rhinos stripped out. Nic Fit is not only SiegeRhino.dec.
The core discussion is pretty pointless. Every single one of us considers different cards core material and in the end it doesn't matter in the slightest who considers what as the core of their deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
He's more or less right. The OP already perfectly describes the core in just one line. What might be nice is to have every major sub-archetype described in a general direction, rather then a fixed sub-optimal list like those are now in the OP. With those directions also taking on some pros and cons of card choices for the specific sub-archetype, ie: Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile or Duress vs Thoughtseize or stuff about Dryad Arbor and whatnot. Everyone likes to take his own spin at the deck and make their choices, which is fine. But it would be helpful for newcomers or just as a cheat sheet in general to have some background information on what to play and what not to play for each more specific deck. This should also avoid that people ask the same questions about the same stuff over and over. There is no golden standard for each sub-archetype, let alone that we are going into consensus about the main core of the deck.
I almost feel that there should be multiple Nic Fit threads, as the variations can be so different. Sneak Fit, Jund/Scapeshift Fit, Junk/Rhino Fit (plus the Leovold/Atraxa blue splash version), BUG/Walkers Fit, Nyx Fit. Trying to discuss all of them in the same place can get a bit confusing.
The only core they can all agree on is:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1+ Bayou
1+ Phyrexian Tower
4-6 Basic lands in appropriate colors
That's about the only "core" this deck has.
This comes up every couple of months. The reason we don't split up is because a lot of card selections talk between versions, or at least give ideas of places to look for inspiration. Example: Nissa, Vital Force's widespread adoption is relevant to every version, not just one or two. The work the various people do is easily communicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
Hey, guys. Literally just started playing Nic Fit with this list, and was wondering if anyone could give me advice on sideboarding and general match-up knowledge against D&T. Pithing Needle, Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, and Qasali Pridemage all seem good, but I'm not sure what I should be taking out. Thanks in advance for any advice!
Take out Meren for sure. Remember your sequencing of Therapy and Vet so they can't snipe it with StP. Sweepers are much bette than spotters. Discard is generally weak against them. You have to over power the board, and this means denying them equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you for the timely response. So post-board should some/all therapies come out? And when you say that spot removal isn't as good as sweepers, does that mean some number of Paths/decays or Pulse+Vindicate come out?Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
For D&T: If you do keep the Therapies in and can hold onto them (or can wait on a flashback), wait until they fetch an equipment with Stoneforge Mystic and then tear it out of their hand the next turn. Guaranteed hit and a free look.
Deluge is a blowout, as they'll probably try to shut down Deed with Phyrexian Revoker. Golgari Charm is not as good as it used to be because a lot of the newer creatures that matter are x/2 instead of x/1.
Reclamation Sage is a good supplement to Pridemage (which can also be fetched with GSZ) as sometimes Pridemage is a Revoker target as well.
Also don't forget that while Deed won't hit the Batterskull unless you pop with 5+ mana, it will hit the germ token!
Finally, Planeswalkers are great against them. Outside of combat, Council's Judgment is the only way D&T can really handle them, so being able to flood the board with tokens or card advantage is a huge help.
D&T does an excellent job of punishing you for any stumbles and slowing your early game, but once you really get going it's hard for them to keep up.
I would take out 3 Path to Exile, 1 Meren and G TitanQuote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
Needle
Kaya
Deluge
Qasali
G Charm
G Titan is too high against this kind of mana denial deck. If you can get the chance to cast him, you'll be winning anyway. He doesn't stabilize early enough against DT like he does against other non combo decks.
With Therapy I usually blind call Thalia, GT on turn 1 or 2. StP of course if you need a bomb creature to stick in the mid/late game, or if you absolutely have to get that Vet trig. Stone forge is funny because you can usually strip the equipment immediately, but smart opponents will get Jitte and cast it. Don't let their Revokers name PDeed, if they have a Mother in play shit gets tough. Charm is great in this scenario, buts it's a fun-of.
Good luck.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Personally I wouldn't take out any removal. Eliminating their threats puts you in a winning position since you have access to some great card selection in Sensei's Divining Top and Green Sun's Zenith. Also, when you lose vs them it's usually due to their mana denial and a combination of hate bears/Mother of Runes/Equipment and all of that is answered by removal (of some kind). I haven't played a ton of games vs DnT since Recruiter and Prelate were released though.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
I would skip the graveyard interaction cards and expensive finishers:
Out: 1 Nissa, 1 Ooze, 1 Meren, 1 Grave Titan
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm
And Cabal Therapy always stays for me, it's great in many ways in this matchup: they lack card draw so discard really slows them down, it's a cheap way to stop their mana denial before it comes into play and hurts (e.g. Thalia), stops win conditions in the shape of equipment when fetched by Stoneforge, perhaps most importantly it ensures you can get a Veteran trigger since it allows you to keep priority when Veteran resolves and sacrifice him as a part of the casting cost of the therapy flashback leaving no room for the opponent to try to Swords to Plowshare it.