In the end, vexing devil is basically a lava spike for 4, that sometimes will come into play and get blocked or be answered, it's an awesome burn card though if you just have to play the fastest zoo possible. >^,^<
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In the end, vexing devil is basically a lava spike for 4, that sometimes will come into play and get blocked or be answered, it's an awesome burn card though if you just have to play the fastest zoo possible. >^,^<
Matt, what variation are you running? I've been having pretty good results with Big Zoo in testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
The question is, can it also beat Maverick reliably?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I find that Big Zoo has an excellent matchup against RUG. The matchup against Stoneblade ranges from slightly unfavorable to very favorable, with cards like Punishing Fire, Green Sun's Zenith, and artifact hate swinging it to the more favorable end. (Esperblade is slightly harder because of Perish, but the same cards plus Volcanic Fallout/Sulfur Elemental do a lot of work in this matchup too.)Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
The Maverick matchup also ranges from slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable, depending on how much spot removal you run. If you're able to shoot down Mother of Runes and win the Knight battles, you are very far ahead. Maze of Ith is very annoying, so running a singleton Wasteland goes a long ways here.
The problem is that this deck sucks pretty hard against a lot of the other popular decks in the format, such as Nic Fit, Sneak Attack, Hive Mind, High Tide, Dream Halls, etc. I'm not sure how the matchup against BUG Control is (I imagine this is extremely heavily dependent on whether you run and assemble Punishing Fire in time). I do like the matchups against Dredge and Reanimator (provided you run Scavenging Ooze and GSZ), and I find Team America, Burn, U/R Delver, Goblins, Merfolk, etc. to be favorable.
As for small Zoo, I find that it is even stronger against RUG Delver as long as you don't get your manabase blown out, but unfortunately, I think it is weaker against Stoneblade and Maverick, as well as the graveyard decks.
It's not a blowout against any of the current DTB, but they all feel like winnable matchups. If there was a build that was 55% against the big 3, I'd run that all day. My main concern is running into a lot of the same sweepers meant for Maverick. Virtue's Ruin is no big deal, but it's also the least popular. Deed, Terminus, Wrath, and Perish are all still potential blowouts. Right now I'm considering Elspeth in the board to try and deal with the control matchup. Anyone having success with anything else?Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Try this maindeck if you're only dedicated to the Big 3:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
(My previous list had 2 Tarmogoyfs rather than 2 Sulfur Elemental, but Tarmogoyf sucks pretty hard right now. The non-bo with Elspeth is pretty awkward, but you're usually using the jump ability anyway.)Quote:
// Lands (22)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
// Creatures (20)
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sulfur Elemental
4 Knight of the Reliquary
// Other (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Good luck with the rest of the format though. Too much Storm combo and Nic Fit in my meta is why I switched to blue decks.
Yeah, I dunno about that list. Maindeck Sulfur is pretty overkill, and you barely have enough burn to justify red. Looks more like a mediocre Maverick list than a Zoo deck.
I would think that fast Zoo with a not-to-greedy manabase and sideboarded Sulfur Elementals would be pretty decent right now. I could even see running like 1-2 Zenith. But if you're running Hierarch and P-Fire (which I wouldn't), you might as well just call yourself Maverick and get better consistency and resilience.
I'd probably try this right now:
4 Goblin Guide (Or Loam Lion, your call)
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
I'll admit I'm a diehard Fast Zoo player, but mostly because the Big Zoo decks just sacrifice the speed of a true Sligh deck for some level of "Control" against aggro. But if you're going to play Aggro mirrors all day, than choose another deck. Zoo should be somewhat favored against Delver (if you play it right and they don't draw like 4 Submerged in game 2), and should beat stoneblade decks when you run 4 pridemage. Maverick is a problem, as is Combo, so build a board like this:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Price of Progress
Fuck it, I think I just convinced myself to switch back to Zoo. Thanks guys! :tongue:
I think in this meta, Big Zoo is the place to be. 1-drop was doing well with Misstep legal because it sped up when everyone else slowed down. With Snapcaster and Batterskull in the format now though, control decks have a much better chance to fend off a bunch of small guys long enough to stabilize out of burn range. RUG probably isn't that bad, but again 1-drop/sligh lists also have a problem with Mongoose shutting down half their team, and Goyf stopping the other half.
I agree that Big Zoo is very close to Maverick, and that's kind of the point. I think Maverick has proven that a mid-range aggro deck is viable right now, and I think that we can follow the same formula with Zoo to make the deck a top competitor again.
For me the real question is why play Big Zoo over Mav when the two have so much in common? Off the top of my head:
Cons:
- splash damage from Mav hate (Terminus, Wrath, Perish, Deed)
- weaker to combo (at least G1)
- weaker manabase (than GW)
Pros:
- More resilient to Jitte, Sulfur Elemental, Massacre, Darkblast, Forked Bolt, etc.
- Access to Sulfur Elemental against Mav and EsperBlade
- More aggressive creature base
- Not currently on everyone's radar
I honestly can't say if those reasons are compelling enough to run one over the other, but that's why I started the discussion.
Here's why I like Big Zoo over G/W Maverick (even though I occasionally play Maverick):Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
- Removal is awesome against creature-based decks. The G/W Maverick mirror often comes down to Gut Shots. Pffft. You almost never just straight up lose to a flipped Delver.
- You don't need to overextend against board-based control decks because your creatures are stronger, Elspeth is hard to remove, and slower decks simply have no answer to Punishing Fire.
- Wild Nacatl is usually better than Mother of Runes. It may never have the board impact of a Mother of Runes that can untap against a deck with only spot removal and no clock, but many decks now run sweepers like Sulfur Elemental, Forked Bolt, Zealous Persecution, Umezawa's Jitte, Dread of Night, and Pernicious Deed. Fast decks like RUG can force you to defensively block and activate Mother, whereas Wild Nacatl puts you on the offensive and trades with their Lightning Bolts and buffed-up Mongoose (plus, you're usually on the offensive).
- Stoneforge Mystic is clunky. Sticking a Jitte or an appropriate Sword (especially SoLS) is awesome, but sinking tempo into SFM, equipment, and activation only to get blown out by removal on your creature feels awful. (This is probably why many Maverick decks are moving away from SFM.)
- Faster clock is often better than cute tricks. I don't want to durdle around with Aven Mindcensor, Scryb Ranger, etc. They can break a stalemate on the board, but I'd rather just do that by bolting all their creatures.
- Access to Red Elemental Blasts out of sideboard.
Why Maverick is better than Big Zoo:
- Being able to support maindeck Thalia plus 3 or 4 Wastelands is awesome against random decks.
- Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic do indeed shine if you can't remove small creatures quickly.
- Maze of Ith can dominate some games.
Maverick is probably still better than Big Zoo against the field, but I'd pilot the build I posted if my goal were simply to beat the three decks Richard Cheese mentioned.
Well to be fair Cheese, I was more responding to lordofthepit's list than anyone else's. Some of those maindeck cards suggest a very biased metagame. I can see the attraction of Big Zoo, but there are some things I still disagree with. Hierarch is one of them. I'd rather curve out naturally into KOTR than play out a Hierarch on turn 1 and represent very little pressure until the midgame. When I ran a bigger version of Zoo, it had 3 KOTR and occasionally a single Elspeth at the top of the curve, for me that's big enough. We also have the option of Stoneforge Mystic, and I could actually see some attraction in running 2 Stoneforge with like 3 Swords, possibly in the sideboard as a surprise game 2 play.
And while I haven't played against RUG with a Fast Zoo deck recently, I don't think Mongoose/Goyf is as much of a problem as you make it seem. Goose eventually becomes a relevant blocker, but by then you should have gotten multiple attacks past him, and you should have better board presence. Their Goyf is always going to eat a Path to Exile when you draw one, and you also have your own Goyfs alongside the 4 Pridemages to win that race. Scavenging Ooze and Lavamancer allow you to fight their graveyard reliance and win the goyf wars as well. RUG will slow you down, yes, but it won't be because of groundpounders as much as their plethora of removal and tempo cards. You can't do much against their Spell Snares and Pierces, just try not to get Dazed.
Stoneblade is a bitch to beat, especially if they have extra Paths and EE's in their 75. But if you run 4 Pridemages, you should at least be able to deal with their lifegain in the midgame. Also, burning out their Stoneforges really slows them down. It's not a bad matchup, but it takes some serious grinding and tight play.
The Maverick matchup is probably not great, but you can tune your board and main to fight them better if you're really worried about it.
I honestly don't know if either Zoo list is good enough right now, but I'd still be caught dead with Hierarchs and Nacatls in the same list. The biggest problem with Zoo (as always) is that we just lose to Combo and have a difficult time against graveyard decks as well.
Interesting discussion going on. I'm split on whether fast Zoo or midrange Zoo is better at the moment. Since I stopped playing any variant whatsoever a while ago, I can only give some educated guesses.
Maverick is the go-to aggro deck right now and I'd only play Zoo if I knew it had a positive matchup against Maverick, otherwise I think it's not worth it and you're better off playing Maverick yourself. lordofthepit's list (untested by me) might be a good starting point.
I can definitely see where you're coming from though, Borealis.
In any case, I'd avoid Stoneforge Mystic, as already mentioned.
EDIT: How about this? It's quite similar to the list from Borealis posted above. Jitte makes your creatures more dangerous and Ooze is really good right now but requires lots of mana, so I went for 21 lands. The combo matchup (nonblue) I didn't even bother to address, even in the sideboard.
4 Kird Ape
3 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
You should give Hierarch a chance. She helps play around Wasteland, provides extra Ooze activations, and 7+ sources of exalted is awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
Hey guys I've dabbled with zoo in the past but now I have some questions. I played against fast zoo with MB jitte and it was game winning every time it stuck. Why isn't jitte seen more often main?
The big question though is have you tried Thalia + wasteland? Guide is powerful but his downside is also very relevant against certain popular decks so why not make the change for Thalia? The lack of mana ramp is apparent but t3 Thalia + waste is still very good and zoo has the most under costed aggressive beats to take advantage of the tempo boost. Obviously PtE would also have to change, possibly to dismember so maybe the sacrifice is too great, idk.
Anyway I guess my thinking is that zoo is king of aggressive aggro but the combination of PtE and guide allow other decks to establish their mana base very reliably where they outmatch zoo in threats. Maybe this approach could be beneficial? It also gives MB answers to combo which zoo lacks. so what I'm thinking of is fast zoo without guides/PtE + Thalia and wasteland and possibly dismember. It seems only maverick would not be hurt by this change. Thoughts?
I'll throw my comments in for what they are worth.
Not running Knight of the Reliquary seems wrong. I guess Ooze can be functionally the same role, but I think Knight is still better.Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
Here is a list I keep sleeved:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Mirri's Guile
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
SB:
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Pyroblast
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
The list isn't 100% optimal. I use it as part of my gauntlet on new deck ideas I have.
You could easily drop a Kird Ape or two to slip Jittes in main without much loss.
Steppe Lynx is really good in this list. And gets better late game with a Knight online.
Teeg is there to mess with combo, but more and more combo sneaks under CMC 3.
With all the burn it's pretty easy to attack with favorable trades or burn a pesky mom before she's active.
This list can beat both Maverick and Stoneforge before they stabilize. I'd call the MU's even.
Best opener is T1 Steppe Lynx T2 fetch ->Qasali attack for 5.
I like fast zoo, but that's really not working right now, ive been looking at doing a hatebear type zoo, but it's like, an 'in limbo' version that's between fast zoo and maverick, almost a zooverick ha ha.
In either case, Latley I've been toying with -something like- this, also trying to keep everything at a cost of 2 or less, keeping it faster
4 goblin guide
4 wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 ethersworn canonist
2 gaddock teeg
2 qasali pridemage
3 grim lavamancer
4 stoneforge mystic
-
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
3 path to exile
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
-
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
4 arid mesa
2 taiga
2 savannah
1 plateau
1 mountain
1 plains
1 forest
-
Some of the sideboard cards would 'intertwine' with the main deck
1 grim lavamancer
1 gaddock teeg
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 ethersworn canonist
2 qasali pridemage
vexing shusher(for my local metagame anyhow, this card is just awesome)
scavenging ooze
for the really fast answers: tormod's crypt -or- mindbreak trap (though with more hatebears, i'd lean towards more anti graveyard)
the only reason I haven't actually pushed this yet is because it just feels like an in limbo version of a weaker maverick deck, the only difference is I have access to burn/removal and it's a little faster, but also there's no green sun's zenith / knight of the reliquary so, the trade off there isn't so great late game.
------
Also I don't know why but I can't make links to the cards anymore at their names, if I forgot how to do that, does anyone remember?
What has legacy come to when zoo is relegated to page three of the Established Decks section?
O Brave New World!
i have a quick question, how would this deck exist in the terminus world?
also I wonder if master of the wild hunt could work in this deck?
also I think this deck needs green sun zenith. the reason I think this is because its the best card green has. so possibly you could combine the two versions by having green sun zenith became the late game push that could tutor up bombs?
just questions from the control side of the coin
This deck has been on the lull as of late, it's showings, at the starcity open series events anyhow, have put it on the decline, I think since April it's only placed in the top 16 once.
As far as running it with green sun's zenith goes, I am already looking at wiping the dust off my old fast zoo list and updating it with thalia, guardian of thraben & stoneforge mystic in addition to green sun, maybe even knight of the reliquary too, though I try to keep the curve at 2 or less for all spells. In the end, it's like some "i can burn you" version of maverick.
Anyone have a good Thalia list that doesn't fold to sneak/show or reanimator?
I played a bunch of preboard games vs RUG and was winning consistently. Stoneblade should be okay and Maverick is probably close, depending on if you can stick a lavamancer and draw path or QP at the right time:
4 Nacatl
4 kirdape
4 loam lion
3 Grim lavamancer
3 Thalia
3 Pridemage
4 Goyf
4 Bolt
4 Chain
3 Path to exile
2 Helix
1 Fireblast
1 Sylvan Library
2 taiga
2 plateau
1 Savannah
3 basics
12 fetch.
hi guys
Im start playing zoo 2 years ago,but recently changed to maverick.
yesterday I tryied a regular fast zoo list,but with some changes:
1º I changed 3 chain lightning for 3 forked bolt.the 4th chain plays like a 5th bolt;Forked is very good against maverick,elves ad limgering souls.
2º 19 lands,because on my tests the deck was flooding.dont know if this is ok,I screwed my manabase sometimes,but still testing;
3º I see a bunch of RUG delvers playing cursed totem on SB and I think: "why not playing in the turbo zoo?" stops maverick,griselbrand,elves. 3 totem I guess is a good number.
I just played against elff ball (2x2),deadgiu (2x1 for me) and suicide black (2x0 for me).
cant play vs maverick,stoneblade or RUG deck but I try to do it this or next week.
sorry about my english,its horrible :p