[Primer/Deck] Pox

Hi, I am a long time Pox player and reader of this thread, and I'd like to give my opinion on several returning questions here:

Regarding Dark Ritual: I have been playing with Dark Ritual in Pox for years and it always served me well. Pox is very mana hungry, especially for black mana. Lilly, Crucible and to a lesser extend Phyrexian Totem are excellent Ritual sinks, and it provides an opportunity for the dreaded Inquisition + Hymn start.

That said, I then played without Rituals for almost two years. Pox is a control deck at heart, and Rituals are clearly card disadvantage. It also worked very well, with a slightly increased number of 1-mana discard (5-6 instead of the usual 4, in any combination of Inquisition and Thoughtseize). Without Rituals, starting hands and topdecks feel overall stronger, but I think this is misleading as you often lack Oumph.

Right now I am back to 3-4 maindeck Rituals. While it can be a lousy topdeck, most of the time it fuels some powerful early game plays which can really put you ahead. Turn 1 Lilly or Crucible, double discard vs. combo or Engineered Plague are hard to beat for a lot of decks.

Regarding Sinkhole: Another card which goes in and out a lot. Like Ritual, i really really like Sinkholes, not just from a flavour point of view. Alongside Wasteland and Pox, there is the very real possibility of mana screwing an opponent. And for quite some time this worked and won games. In the current metagame the power of land destruction feels greatly diminished however.

I don't think this has primarily to do with Deathrite Shaman, but current decks are either packing more lands than previously (especially more basics) or they have better search capabilities to find missing lands. Combo decks can also safely sit on Fetches until they plow you out. So right now, Sinkhole is out. And with it also Nether Void.

Regarding Phyrexian Totem: I like the Totem enough to play 2 most of the time. It's an average mana rock for the often required second black mana, but it really shines as a clock vs. combo, empty hands and opposing planeswalkers. It's hard to get rid off and it tramples over those tiny 1/1 tokens.

My current deck list:

Maindeck

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem

2 Nether Spirit

2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Bitterblossom / Chains of Mephistopheles / Sinkhole

4 Fatal Push
4 Dark Ritual

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
1 Thoughtseize

I think one of the more unconventional choices is Phyrexian Arena. It's my card advantage engine of choice and it wins a lot of games by providing a steady stream of disruption. Does it kill you sometimes? Yes, but very rarely. It's questionable vs. opposing control decks (of all things), as for example Miracles is very able to parry any aggression and just let you die on your own enchantment. But in those cases it can be boarded out, and it is very powerful in other grindy matchups. I might try the new Karn in this spot, but have not tested him yet.

Lands: 25 and not going below. I think this is already quite greedy, and sometimes I cut a Factory, Wasteland and Urborg in order to play 16 basic Swamps. Getting mana screwed with one Swamp and lots of double black cards is a surefire way to lose, and happens frequently.

The rest of the deck is almost a quad laser, courtesy of missing deck manipulation and my personal need for consistency.

Where do I think Pox stands right now? All in all I think we are situated quite well, with several good matchups and a few abysmal ones. I really struggle with NicFit, TurboDepths and Burn, Lands also feels like an uphill battle. Miracles is hairy, but if feels worse than it actually is. I would say 45/55 in Miracles favour. Most combo and cantrippy blue decks are favourable for Pox. Big Red is so/so, I win some matches and lose some, not quite sure on this one yet. Bridges can be a beating, as we almost can't get rid of Walkers without the attack phase.

Hellow poxers!

I would like to make this deck, but i am a little overwhelmed by the price of cards like nether voyd, the abyss or chains. Are this cards really needed? And the second question is, how is the deck in the actual meta?

Thanks!

Those cards are helpful but not necessary.

Pox does well against fair decks, especially non blue fair decks or ones that operate with few lands in play. I tend to wreck Delver and Maverick and DnT, elves is about 55/45 I'd say... The more controlly they are the harder it is for us, especially with their Planeswalkers, but we have game against all the fair decks and can win if we outdraw/outplay them.

Bad matchup for me have been Loam decks including Lands, and also Sneak and Show. Storm is about 50/50, reanimator about the same.

That said because the deck is not blue it loses to bad draws more. And none of the good matchups I mention are so lopsided as to be byes, while aggro loam and sneak and show I've won almost never against. I think that, and being underplayed ,is what keeps Pox down - a lot of solid slightly advantaged matchups, but some total losses and a general lack of card manipulation.

But the deck is a ton of fun, and deceptively hard to play. Tailor it to your meta and you'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Those cards are helpful but not necessary.

Pox does well against fair decks, especially non blue fair decks or ones that operate with few lands in play. I tend to wreck Delver and Maverick and DnT, elves is about 55/45 I'd say... The more controlly they are the harder it is for us, especially with their Planeswalkers, but we have game against all the fair decks and can win if we outdraw/outplay them.

Bad matchup for me have been Loam decks including Lands, and also Sneak and Show. Storm is about 50/50, reanimator about the same.

That said because the deck is not blue it loses to bad draws more. And none of the good matchups I mention are so lopsided as to be byes, while aggro loam and sneak and show I've won almost never against. I think that, and being underplayed ,is what keeps Pox down - a lot of solid slightly advantaged matchups, but some total losses and a general lack of card manipulation.

But the deck is a ton of fun, and deceptively hard to play. Tailor it to your meta and you'll be fine.

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Thank you for the answer, maybe dark confidant solve this problem, right?

How pox could beat SNT?

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Originally Posted by fluuu

Thank you for the answer, maybe dark confidant solve this problem, right?

How pox could beat SNT?

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How do you beat Show and Tell? Easy. Ensnaring Bridge.

If bad draws or lack of manipulation is a problem why not consider Night's Whisper to dig through the deck cheaply? After all, draw2s are also what gives RB Reanimator some of its consistency.

It is draw two, and DISCARD two that is the trick for Reanimator. They can build the deck around it.
Night whisper, otoh, is too fair in its design to be actually good. Ancestral recall = overpowered =good.
Night's whisper = fair = useless.
The card cost to much mana and draws to few cards.

Night's Whisper works well to smooth out draws and hit land drops, but it draws only 1 additional card. And how much would you play? 4 feels too many, and if you play only 2 there are better mid/late game alternatives.

For 1 more mana you could play Phyrexian Arena, which can provide permanent draw until answered. For 2 more mana you could play Karn, which is card advantage and wincon in a package. Both are permanents which are not hit by Pox, and both require an answer or they will take over the game.

Dark Confidant is also an option, but it doesn't fit into Pox very well and dies too easily.

With a green splash, you gain access to Mirri's Guile, which also works very well in a Pox shell with Fetches.

I don't think there are any other worthwile CA engines, Top is banned and Coercive Portal got outclassed by Karn.

Let's all give Crystal Ball a chance :)

i'd take bitterblossom or even waste not over sign in blood or night's whisper if you're looking for a spell that generates card advantage for 2 mana..
we operate on such minimal resources so card draw feels awkward..

@crystal ball
its just too slow..

Debating taking this to a 1K on 6/16:

4x Bloodghast
2x Bitterblossom

4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
3x Dark Ritual
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the last hope
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Fatal Push
2x Expedition Map
1x Pox

11x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog

3x Engineered Plague
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Toxic Deluge
2x lost legacy
1x Tombstalker


I've been thinking about what kombatkiwi has been saying about Beseech the queen, and then the remarks about how it's mostly lands that Beseech gets. So I figured Expedition Map could be just as good at finding key lands. It can run on colorless mana, costs the same at 3 mana to play/activate, and can get impressive silver bullets like Maze/Karakas/Pit/Wasteland (no tabernacle for me, unfortunately.) My biggest hesitation is the lack of Liliana of the veil, I only have 2 copies now. My sub is big Pox and LotLH. It should be ok. I have at least 4-5 decks to pick from, all fringe, and this is one of them. I like the potential against Miracles, Delver, Elves, Czech Pile, Storm.

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Originally Posted by sonorous

Let's all give Crystal Ball a chance :)

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I'd give Darksteel Pendant a chance first... LOL :laugh::laugh::cool:

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

If bad draws or lack of manipulation is a problem why not consider Night's Whisper to dig through the deck cheaply? After all, draw2s are also what gives RB Reanimator some of its consistency.

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The lack of card draw in Pox is a feature, not a drawback. You will not have enough mana to cast multiple spells in a turn usually, so a card draw spell kinda time walks you. Ideally very top deck is either disruption or another land drop. I agree that Bitterblossom or Waste Not are the type of CA we want. Waste not is terrible, but at least its the right idea, it accrues advantage over turns. If I'm hellbent with a Liliana in play and I draw a Bitterblossom (or a land or any rando disruption), I can cast it and then uptick. If I cast a Night's whisper in that scenario, I'm losing 2 cards - the Night's Whisper and the card I pitch to Lili. Obviously there are spots where you whisper into a thoughtseize and a swamp and everything's grand, but I think the symmetrical discard in our deck makes cards like Night's Whisper pretty poor. This is also why I question the tutors. Though Beseech for land is something I do in Modern all the time and it's great. I didn't really think about that functionality in Pox and it honestly makes me like the idea.

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Originally Posted by Nightfrost

Hi, I am a long time Pox player and reader of this thread,

Where do I think Pox stands right now? All in all I think we are situated quite well, with several good matchups and a few abysmal ones. I really struggle with NicFit, TurboDepths and Burn, Lands also feels like an uphill battle. Miracles is hairy, but if feels worse than it actually is. I would say 45/55 in Miracles favour. Most combo and cantrippy blue decks are favourable for Pox. Big Red is so/so, I win some matches and lose some, not quite sure on this one yet. Bridges can be a beating, as we almost can't get rid of Walkers without the attack phase.

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Hi! thanks for jumping in the pool and sharing! I think Pox as a deck is too metagame dependent to really pin down an optimal list or a position in the meta. My current list is really strong against Delver, Sneak and Show, Storm, Burn, Moon Stompy and Elves, Medium against Pile, Miracles, D+T, and Blade, and bad against Lands, Depths and Reanimator. But I can adjust about 4 cards main and 6 in the sideboard to fully re-arrange that lineup. I think a player in a known local meta can consistently put up a positive record. The larger the event, however, the tougher the meta is to crack, and the more rounds of potential weird or bad match-ups you have to dodge. (I played in a 7 round event last week and faced Enchantress and Werewolf Stompy, for example) (I finished 5-2 for 14th place, lost to Lands and Reanimator)

I run my own bridges. 4 Needles in my 75 help vs walkers.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Debating taking this to a 1K on 6/16:

4x Bloodghast
2x Bitterblossom

4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
3x Dark Ritual
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the last hope
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Fatal Push
2x Expedition Map
1x Pox

11x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog

3x Engineered Plague
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Toxic Deluge
2x lost legacy
1x Tombstalker


I've been thinking about what kombatkiwi has been saying about Beseech the queen, and then the remarks about how it's mostly lands that Beseech gets. So I figured Expedition Map could be just as good at finding key lands. It can run on colorless mana, costs the same at 3 mana to play/activate, and can get impressive silver bullets like Maze/Karakas/Pit/Wasteland (no tabernacle for me, unfortunately.) My biggest hesitation is the lack of Liliana of the veil, I only have 2 copies now. My sub is big Pox and LotLH. It should be ok. I have at least 4-5 decks to pick from, all fringe, and this is one of them. I like the potential against Miracles, Delver, Elves, Czech Pile, Storm.

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@Mr Safety

Before commenting on anything I must say that I never played with bloodghasts, so my apologies if I say some nonsense.

On Expedition Map vs Beseech the Queen
Between the two I like Beseech more, but I've replaced it with Infernal Tutor with great success. I would not run Expedition Map because I rather tutor for lock pieces, planeswalkers or sideboard cards. However, everything you say makes sense if you are only tutoring for lands. The maps also seem to work nice with the bloodghasts, since it's another way to bring them back from the graveyard.

On 4x Thoughtseize \ 4x Cabal Therapy \ 4x Hymn to Tourach
I think that 12 discards (+4 with therapy flashback) seems excessive. I noticed that you are worried about the 2 copies of Liliana of the Veil, so maybe these discards are meant to balance the amount of disruption. Even so, I think this will give you a lot of bad topdecks. I would cut between 2 and 3 copies for Collective Brutality, since it's more flexible or for something else that's a better topdeck.

On 3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I would definitely run 4 copies. With the amount of colorless lands and BB spells I don't think you can afford to run less.

On 1x Liliana, the Last Hope
If you have any more copies available, I would run at least a second copy in the Liliana of the Veil slot. They don't do the same thing, but the last hope has performed really well for me.

On 1x Tombstalker (sideboard)
I would replace it for a Necropolis Fiend. He costs one more and attacks for one less, but his ability is makes up for it.

General suggestions
- Umezawa's Jitte: with 2 bitterblossoms, 4 bloodghasts and 4 Mishra’s Factory I think you can afford to run Jitte. I would cut a Hymn to Tourach for it.

- Crucible of Worlds: Wouldn't crucible or another land recursion engine be a good choice since you are running bloodghasts?

- Contamination \ Attrition: these 2 enchantments could work really well with the bitterblossoms and the bloodghasts. Contamination locks the game against nonblack decks and Attrition can help to control de board. For me they are solid sideboard options.


I hope this helps you somehow and good luck on the tournament!

Thanks for the response, and yes, I agree that 4 Therapy is too many. I will cut one for a Jitte, which I really like. I traded my Crucible away, so that isn't available. I do have the 4th Urborg, which should be easy to squeeze in. I might have to play Buried Alive to really take advantage of Bloodghasts. I really like the Contamination idea, I might have to try and get some to pull this off. Also, no Brutalities. They are surprisingly hard to come across.

I'm really looking to see if Bitterblossom/Ratchet Bomb/Smallpox is a good combination in the current metagame. I don't have the expensive lock pieces, and I have other deck options (I have fetches and G/B/W duals.) The big reason for even considering the deck is how good Smallpox is in the current metagame.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Debating taking this to a 1K on 6/16:

4x Bloodghast
2x Bitterblossom

4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
3x Dark Ritual
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the last hope
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Fatal Push
2x Expedition Map
1x Pox

11x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog

3x Engineered Plague
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Toxic Deluge
2x lost legacy
1x Tombstalker


I've been thinking about what kombatkiwi has been saying about Beseech the queen, and then the remarks about how it's mostly lands that Beseech gets. So I figured Expedition Map could be just as good at finding key lands. It can run on colorless mana, costs the same at 3 mana to play/activate, and can get impressive silver bullets like Maze/Karakas/Pit/Wasteland (no tabernacle for me, unfortunately.) My biggest hesitation is the lack of Liliana of the veil, I only have 2 copies now. My sub is big Pox and LotLH. It should be ok. I have at least 4-5 decks to pick from, all fringe, and this is one of them. I like the potential against Miracles, Delver, Elves, Czech Pile, Storm.

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Yeah, I agree you have too much discard. Therapy is powerful, especially with your creature base, so i would ditch the Thoughtseizes.
In any case you have no Nether Spirits, toxic deluge or Innocent blood. Those use to be staples of that type of deck.
I get the feeling this is not tested much. If that is so then it is better go back to something that worked in the past, and tweak that.
A new deck with darlings, like the 8 B discard spells will crash in a biggger tourney.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Yeah, I agree you have too much discard. Therapy is powerful, especially with your creature base, so i would ditch the Thoughtseizes.
In any case you have no Nether Spirits, toxic deluge or Innocent blood. Those use to be staples of that type of deck.
I get the feeling this is not tested much. If that is so then it is better go back to something that worked in the past, and tweak that.
A new deck with darlings, like the 8 B discard spells will crash in a biggger tourney.

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What do u guys think about meter void, The abyss and chains?

Should be played, if you have them. Note that is true only for control pox decks. In my aggro they have no place.

Need some advice.
I like Clayton Levi's recent list (May 6th), but I have no Bloodghasts.
What cards can I replace those with, and why?