[Primer] Elves!

I went 4-0 at the local Monday night Legacy with elves.

I ran a pretty standard list with 4 natural order main. I had a few awkward draws with double Natural Order but it never cost me the game.

R1: Blacksplash DnT 2-0

This is a rough matchup for DnT. G1 I went forest into Deathrite to hide my deck choice for a turn. I went off on turn 2 after an absurd glimpse chain and cast 2 natural orders for 2 hoofs for letahl with no untapped non-summoning sick creatures. He connected with a jitte once in game 2 but it didn't really matter. NO got there both times.

R2: Miracles 2-1

Game 1 I mulled to 4 and kept a no lander...I lost. Game 2 I got boarded out the glimpse combo and boarded in sylvans and abrupts. I got there with deathrite shaman pings and untaps. Game 3 I forced a bad terminus by playing wren's run. I then decayed a pithing needle on DRS so I could play a teeg from my hand. Teeg went the distance. DRS does so much work against miracles, it was well worth it to decay the needle.

R3: Rock 2-1

Game 1 was a turn 4 NO. Game 2 I kept a slow hand and he had deathrite->sfm->jitte equip and swing turn 3. Game 3 was rough, I NO'd for progenitus when he had a solid boardstate. I theoretically knew he had a deluge in hand but for some reason thought it was a bitterblossom after glancing at the art. He deluged for 10 and wiped the board. I came back and hoofed with like, 3 creatures on the board for lethal since he was at 8. This game was super close, the Rock player is really solid and was winning bad matchups all night, he beat storm and miracles in previous rounds.

R4: MUD 2-0

He was on mudpost, I play the deck from time to time so I know it well. This was an absolutely ridiculous matchup, both games he had chalices and 3spheres. Game 1 he went tomb->grim->sphere, next turn chalice. Thankfully I was on the play game 1 so I'd played a quirion ranger. Turn 2 I played cradle swung and passed, he dropped a chalice on 2. Turn 3 I tapped cradle, tapped forest, replayed forest, tapped it and zenithed for a dryad arbor then swung and passed. He played steel hellkite. Next turn I tapped forest, dryad and played visionary, then I tapped cradle for 3, replayed the forest untapping dryad arbor and tapped the forest to NO for hoof saccing the visionary. I swung for 16, he was at 11 after 4 tomb activations and swings for 2 (+1 from glimmerpost last turn) so it was lethal over the hellkite

Game 2 I mulled down to 5 and he again played trinisphere, chalice and then 2 forgemasters. This time I was able rec sage the chalice, he sacced it along with his forgemasters and looked through his deck for platinum angel. Blightsteel may have killed me here but he sided it out =). T I played a couple quirions for 3 the following turns and he played platinum empirion and started swinging with his angel. I managed to get 7 mana with 2 quirions and an arbor so I NO'd for wirewood saccing a ranger then bounced rec sage and replayed it on angel. Then he played hellkite. I bounced sage and killed the hellkite then decayed his 3sphere. Wirewood was stalling the empirion on the ground so it wasn't a concern. After that I started swinging for 4 or 5 a turn and vindicating whatever he played.

Similar to what was posted on the last page, I too am trying to figure out good SB cards against U/W/R Delver and UR Delver. Ruric is theoretically pretty good against both, but getting him into play is easier said then done against the amount of removal these two decks run. Elderscale Wurm is another fatty that has been brought up, but Im not really sure he's stronger than ruric. Even if he is, using a SB slot for a marginally better fatty for a matchup or two doesnt seem ideal.

Basically, If I am looking to dedicate 2-3 SB slots specifically to the U/W/R Delver and UR Delver matchups (they make up about 30% of my local meta), what would be the best choice?

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Originally Posted by Atikin

Similar to what was posted on the last page, I too am trying to figure out good SB cards against U/W/R Delver and UR Delver. Ruric is theoretically pretty good against both, but getting him into play is easier said then done against the amount of removal these two decks run. Elderscale Wurm is another fatty that has been brought up, but Im not really sure he's stronger than ruric. Even if he is, using a SB slot for a marginally better fatty for a matchup or two doesnt seem ideal.

Basically, If I am looking to dedicate 2-3 SB slots specifically to the U/W/R Delver and UR Delver matchups (they make up about 30% of my local meta), what would be the best choice?

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Is disfigure a terrible solution? Neither have a large amount of threats and so long as they can't start strong we'll get to enter our zesty mid game where we get all our options

So I just bought this deck and it going to be my forever deck in legacy. I just want to know what everyones sideboarding plans are. My first idea is just board out the glimps package but I dont know. Just as a general idea what does everyone do?

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Is disfigure a terrible solution? Neither have a large amount of threats and so long as they can't start strong we'll get to enter our zesty mid game where we get all our options

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That...is not a bad idea! You can tag SFM, Lavamancer, Delver, Young Peezy, and opposing DRS's. That's kinda hot. Now I wish I still had those foil Disfigures...

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Originally Posted by jim111589

So I just bought this deck and it going to be my forever deck in legacy. I just want to know what everyones sideboarding plans are. My first idea is just board out the glimps package but I dont know. Just as a general idea what does everyone do?

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Start here. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post731679

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Originally Posted by danyul

That...is not a bad idea! You can tag SFM, Lavamancer, Delver, Young Peezy, and opposing DRS's. That's kinda hot. Now I wish I still had those foil Disfigures...

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Disfigure seems like a reasonable solution to slow down the opponent on actually killing you. I was looking at adding a fourth Abrupt Decay, but I think I'll give Disfigure a try first.

I think UR matchup is already fine and UWR is a tiny bit tougher. I think you want pithing needles and decays and that should be enough to handle their cards that can X for 1 us if left unchecked and shoot down the flying dumbo.

UWR can shift from aggro into control very well and UR can play an extremely proactive game plan depending on the number of bolts (you have to remember if you see just bolt or see bolt and chain). Most of the time you just have to play by ear and take note of your opponent's play style.

Disfigure is tactically very efficient but I don't want to have too many removal spells in my deck, when we can just deploy threats conservatively to test the water and kill them with packmaster or NO when they run out. I think that a compelling reason for inclusion of disfigure in addition to decay is that against meddling mage, we can kill a mage naming decay.

What does your board currently look like? I think it would be more useful to look at the inclusion of cards within context of an entire board.

I usually play:
3-6 discard
3 decay
6-9 meta slots

And specifically now;
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage (1 main, 1 side)
2 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Sylvan Library
1 Choke

I'm very anti-miracles heavy and I've found the second rec sage very useful for having outs to postboard cages coming from every side. NB: I also main ooze.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Is disfigure a terrible solution? Neither have a large amount of threats and so long as they can't start strong we'll get to enter our zesty mid game where we get all our options

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Oh wow. Maybe instead of 3 Abrupt Decay, run 2 Decays and 1 Disfigure..

I think I'll forever be sticking to 4 Abrupt Decay. Hits Jitte, Delver, Cage. No harm in siding all 4 against BUG delver (which sides in 2 cage now), death/taxes, UWR, etc...

So I live in the Birmingham/Atlanta area and i'm trying to prepare for the open soon. The meta is a lot of fair decks and decks with STP. So a lot of deathblade, Jund, BUG, and not as much storm, reanimator, or miracles. My current maindeck is:

Creatures: 30
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

Spells: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Land: 19
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven

Currently my SB is something like this. I'm not 100% satisfied with it because I'd love to find room for either Meekstone, Ruric Thar, Elderscale Wurm, or Worldspine Wurm, but I can tinker with the numbers later.
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus

Now I'm considering going the 4 Blood Moon plan because it makes decks like Deathblade, BUG, etc into a bye if I can land an early moon but at the same time, Blood Moon doesn't do anything to make my bad matchups better (Miracles, fast combo). If I do run Blood Moon, i'll probably add a Taiga maindeck and make my SB this:

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 4 Blood Moon

I know there isn't as much fast combo or miracles as traditional greedy mana base fair decks, but I don't want the chance to just randomly lose to them since i'd have to drop the amount of miracle hate (3 Abrupt decays, 1 needle, 1 null rod) and combo hate (only 4 discard) to accommodate blood moon. Is it worth it to hope to dodge bad matchups by making even-good matchups a lot better, or is it better to just try to go even against the field. Or I can focus my SB more and try to dodge either miracles or storm as opposed to a little of both and basically just make my matchup REALLY bad against either or by playing these.

"fuck you miracles"
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Blood Moon

or

"fuck you combo"
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 4 Blood Moon

Opinions?

@ AznSeal

My sb is this:

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Elderscale Wurm (autowin the mirror?)

4th NO is in the main. Which is excellent in many matchups where you want to be faster than them: Mirror match, burn, fast combo. I also like the 4th main because it gets discarded or easily countered. I always want more! Someone said here (can't remember who) that they've lost way more games because they didn't draw NO than drawing too many...

Personally, just try to be good against anything. Stuff like Choke is too narrow and as for meekstone..I think the 4th decay is just better. Killing delvers and jittes is just too good. Also, graf cage is REALLY popular now. The decks that side it in also play delvers, stoneforge, etc.

I really wanted to side in thoughtseize vs delver but didn't like the life loss. I replaced therapy with duress to apply to this matchup as well.

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

@ AznSeal

My sb is this:

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Elderscale Wurm (autowin the mirror?)

4th NO is in the main. Which is excellent in many matchups where you want to be faster than them: Mirror match, burn, fast combo. I also like the 4th main because it gets discarded or easily countered. I always want more! Someone said here (can't remember who) that they've lost way more games because they didn't draw NO than drawing too many...

Personally, just try to be good against anything. Stuff like Choke is too narrow and as for meekstone..I think the 4th decay is just better. Killing delvers and jittes is just too good. Also, graf cage is REALLY popular now. The decks that side it in also play delvers, stoneforge, etc.

I really wanted to side in thoughtseize vs delver but didn't like the life loss. I replaced therapy with duress to apply to this matchup as well.

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Ah interesting. What did you cut for the 4th NO MD? Or are you running 61 cards. And I can see the argument for meekstone and choke, but no library?

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

@ AznSeal
1 Elderscale Wurm (autowin the mirror?)

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A note on Elderscale Wurm: I actually lost a mirror match at SCG Worcester this past weekend to Elderscale, and was quite impressed with its usefulness in such a situation. However, after reading these rulings on Gatherer, I'm not sure if it's really that great:

7/1/2012 Elderscale Wurm's last ability doesn't affect the loss or payment of life.
7/1/2012 If you have less than 7 life, damage dealt to you reduces your life total as normal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that even if you resolved a NO and got Elderscale into play, your opponent could still just Deathrite you for 2 life, reducing you below 7, and then kill you normally with damage.

I actually cut my blue splash and put in Pendelhaven instead of the Tropical Island replacing the 3 Swan Song in the board with 2 Cabal Therapy and an Elderscale Wurm. Like it so far but haven't played Storm or Sneak and Show were I really like the Swan Songs. Beat Infect, Burn, and UR Delver losing to BUG Delver this week.

@Elderscale Wurm
I been liking this against Burn and UR Delver. You don't bring it in against Deathrite decks.

@Melira
Melira seems narrow and is not worth it unless Infect is really popular in your area. You can just block the Glistener Elf plus you have Pithing Needle for their Inkmoth and Abrupt Decay for Blighted Agent. Both cards are good in other match ups.

@Ruric Thar
I been running Ruric Thar main deck for awhile and it is so good against Burn and Storm provided they don't just kill you before you get it out. Is pretty good versus the UR cruise delver as well. Decent back up plan against decks that don't run Swords to Plowshares.

@Atikin
UWR delver you want Null Rod and Pithing Needle or two to stop Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice and Grim Lavamancer as well as 3-4 Abrupt Decay. couple Thoughtseize can be decent to take their equipment as well.

UR cruise Delver Elderscale wurm is pretty good or just good old Progenitus and the 4th Natural Order along with 3-4 Abrupt Decay.

@Tammit67
Not sure I like Disfigure seems very narrow would run 4 Abrupt Decay before I even think about running the first Disfigure.

@Blastoderm
Strongly considering going up to 4 Abrupt Decay in the board or maybe 3 Abrupt Decay and a second Reclaimation Sage since you can Zenith for the Sage. It solves many problems.

@AznSeal
Do not like Bloodmoon in Elves since it hampers you dramatically and by the time you get it down turn 2 or 3 they have Daze and Spell Pierce available or can float mana for Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm. It is really good in Painter or Sneak and Show where you can play it turn 1 or 2 with possible Force of Will back up.

I run Ruric Thar main deck because it is the best way to beat Burn and Storm. I would cut Llanowar Elves for Ruric Thar.

Current list:
4 DRS
4 Quirion

4 Symbiote
4 Visionary

2 Birch
3 Nettle
3 Heritage

1 Hoof
1 Ruric
1 Packmaster
1 Recla Sage
1 Ooze

4 Glimpse
4 GSZ
4 NO

20 land w/P.Haven

SB:
3/3 discard
4 Decay
1 Prog
1 Library
2 Needle
1 Rod

The big thing for me is the 1 Hoof. I like 4 NO, I like Packmaster (especially for making GSZ@4 absurd) entirely too much to cut it, yet I live in Europe where combo is big. But with 2 Hoofs you just start accumulating too much clunk, so I'm trying to diversify. Packmaster and Ruric usually take over the games where they land so I should be fine if I draw a Hoof. Keeps a nice saturation of bombs in the deck so you can do that "topdeck I win card" thing that nedleeds hates.

Board is adapted from Riley Curran's list here, pretty much just hating bad matchups and solving problems. Jitte seems interesting as extra removal and a pain for Miracles, but went for the 6th discard spell. Should probably actually be the Jitte, need to do testing vs. combo to determine that.

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

A note on Elderscale Wurm: I actually lost a mirror match at SCG Worcester this past weekend to Elderscale, and was quite impressed with its usefulness in such a situation. However, after reading these rulings on Gatherer, I'm not sure if it's really that great:

7/1/2012 Elderscale Wurm's last ability doesn't affect the loss or payment of life.
7/1/2012 If you have less than 7 life, damage dealt to you reduces your life total as normal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that even if you resolved a NO and got Elderscale into play, your opponent could still just Deathrite you for 2 life, reducing you below 7, and then kill you normally with damage.

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They still have to hit you to 7 to make DRS able to get you under 7 by the loss of life. Which means you will stop the first Craterhoof swing at least. (one thing to note is that Elderscale only sets your life to 7 if you are under 7)

That being said I would bring it in, in the mirror but would only grab it if Craterhoof would not get me there.

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Originally Posted by Krasman

They still have to hit you to 7 to make DRS able to get you under 7 by the loss of life. Which means you will stop the first Craterhoof swing at least. (one thing to note is that Elderscale only sets your life to 7 if you are under 7)

That being said I would bring it in, in the mirror but would only grab it if Craterhoof would not get me there.

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You make a sideboard-strategy out of having NO/GSZ + a bazillion mana before your opponent does in the mirror!? Lol, dood

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You make a sideboard-strategy out of having NO/GSZ + a bazillion mana before your opponent does in the mirror!? Lol, dood

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No I cut cards that are useless in the mirror for cards that are better.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

Ah interesting. What did you cut for the 4th NO MD? Or are you running 61 cards. And I can see the argument for meekstone and choke, but no library?

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I was considering library but it doesn't save me from Delvers or Jittes. UR delver is now running 2 grafdigger's cage sb and so is BUG. UWR has grafdigger's as well as some lavamancers. These are too many must kill targets. However I noticed that UR and BUG are not running spell pierce which is the card that annoys me the most. I think it's a good time to play 4 NO main. Delver decks without spell pierce I think are favorable matchups. UWR is still a problem though.

Maindeck is pretty standard but no WRP.

1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wirewood symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ
4 NO
2 Craterhoof

9 Fetch
2 Arbor
4 Cradle
3 Forest
2 Bayou

A little off topic but does anyone have any interesting alerts for elves? I was thinking about getting lederhosen on craterhoof so i can "das hoof" or do most people to iffy in their lgs with alters?