4 Card Blind

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Originally Posted by Serguei

Sorry for the late results

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5. dte: City of traitors, Lotus petal, Energy field, Scalding tongs
WD
4 pts
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35 pts Sorry again for late results

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I am even more late, but I am pretty sure you beat me 6-0.

Luckily for me, Silkster made the analysis for me: I do the same as him/her, except I do 0-6 versus Unmask/duress (Tylert, Serguei and maxxx!), so likely 38 for me. Shivan gorge was a great find to beat discard!
On my side I played a "generic" deck as my deck was banned just before the round (well, a lot because of myself) and I was short on time.

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Originally Posted by silkster

Me: silkster: Shivan Gorge, Mercadian Bazaar, Lotus Petal, Energy Field


1. Asthereal (TO): Remote Farm, City of Traitors, Windborn Muse, Elspeth, Knight-Errant WW, 6 points
2. Reeplcheep: Rain of Tears , Inkmoth Nexus, Urborg, Yomb of Yawgmoth , Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale LD means LL, 0 points
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Lotus Petal, Kuldotha Rebirth, Feldon's Cane WW, 6 points
4. alphastryk: Khalni Garden, Golgari Rot Farm, Awakening Zone, Sprout Swarm WW, 6 points
5. dte: City of traitors, Lotus petal, Energy field, Scalding tongs DD (Great minds! I chose my wincon to get 3 points against Duress.)
6. Tylert: Great furnace, Kuldotha rebirth, Unmask, Force of despair WL, 3 points
7. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Devoted Druid, Hornet Queen WW, 6 points
8. Wrath of Pie: City of Traitors, Ratchet Bomb, Hangarback Walker, Hangarback Walker LL
9. H: Great Furnace, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Kuldotha Rebirth WW, 6 points
11. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider WW, 6 points (I almost submitted this deck.)
12. Serguei: Force of Despair, Unmask, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth WL, 3 points
13. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Duress, Bitterblossom WL, 3 points

15W, 2D, 7L for 47 points. This was an easy round to calculate, but that also means I didn't spend too much time, so mistakes are definitely possible. (I made at least 3 last week!)

I'm a little sad that my best plan was to ignore the round rules. My switch from Helix Pinnacle (playing Tropical Island and ESG) to Shivan Gorge was worth -4 against dte and +9 total against Tylert, Serguei, and maxx!

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Originally Posted by silkster

Before the additional bans, I thought 4x Chancellor or 3x Chancellor + Fury of the Horde were very important to plan against. Tabernacle strategies are strong, but only if you're on the play. On the draw, there's Force of Despair (which many found), but then it's surprisingly awkward on the play as you have to devote yet more cards as answers. That is unless the black card you were planning to pitch was Dark Ritual. So I was planning to play that with a swamp/dual and some random win con that I hadn't settled on, but probably Hangarback Walker.

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That is a very clever solution versus the chancellor deck! I saw Force of despair, and thought that it was a bit like tabernacle: some heavy investment for doing 3-3 means it's probably better to just play the best deck.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Anybody opposed to errata'ing the round so that we ignore all effects that prevent lifegain?

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And here goes my deck again!

But fully agree, as otherwise I think WoP is fully right:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

I fear that the "life" format is secretly all about alternate win conditions, because getting to 100 life really fast is rather difficult, and stopping said lifegain is rather easy.

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Both that it is easy to stop lifegain, but also that the rules stop you from dying from most fast strategies.

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

6. Tylert: Great furnace, Kuldotha rebirth, Unmask, Force of despair
Goblin stare 2-2

12. Serguei: Force of Despair, Unmask, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth
Goblin stare 2-2

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Disagreement with Serguei.

I think Serguei is right.

G - 3 goblins. Cane. Serguei casts Force
S - 3 goblins

G - Draw Petal.
S - Attack for 12

G - Draw Furnace
S - Attack for 12

1 turn too slow to redraw in time. Mox Opal would have been much better than Lotus Petal here, speeding you up a turn.

WW 6-0 for Serguei.

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Originally Posted by Serguei

5. dte: City of traitors, Lotus petal, Energy field, Scalding tongs
WD
4 pts

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WW 6-0 for you
Casting Unmask on Scalding Tongs also destroys Energy Field

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Originally Posted by jhhdk

I am a little slow.



I have trouble figuring out how alternate wincons would work with the last paragraph.
Lets say I get my wincon that allows me to gain life exiled or countered and my opponent plays something like Helix Pinnacle, but he has no way to reach 100 life. Does he win or is it a draw?
The way rules of the round was written I'd have expected to be a draw.

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Everyone would be drawing in that scenario, so it's still an issue.

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Originally Posted by Serguei

35 pts Sorry again for late results

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At last!

38 points in fact (check my analisys in a later post).

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Originally Posted by jhhdk

I am a little slow.

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9. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life with optimal play from either side, the game ends in a draw.

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I have trouble figuring out how alternate wincons would work with the last paragraph.
Lets say I get my wincon that allows me to gain life exiled or countered and my opponent plays something like Helix Pinnacle, but he has no way to reach 100 life. Does he win or is it a draw?
The way rules of the round was written I'd have expected to be a draw.

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The way I read it, that bolded sentence is more like reminder text than rules text. I was thinking that the actual rules are:

1. You don't lose from having 0 or less life
2. You don't lose from having 10 or more poison counters
3. You win if you have 100 or more life

The part about draws makes sense as a reminder of what happens when nobody meets a victory condition in 4CB, rather than a round rule itself. But I might be wrong. That's the only way it made sense to me.

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Originally Posted by maxx!

The way I read it, that bolded sentence is more like reminder text than rules text. I was thinking that the actual rules are:

1. You don't lose from having 0 or less life
2. You don't lose from having 10 or more poison counters
3. You win if you have 100 or more life

The part about draws makes sense as a reminder of what happens when nobody meets a victory condition in 4CB, rather than a round rule itself. But I might be wrong. That's the only way it made sense to me.

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Simple rule proposition: "you win if and only if you reach 100 life."?

That way we are sure that there is no bypass (we would need to ban pact of negation, but that's it I think).

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Originally Posted by dte

Simple rule proposition: "you win if and only if you reach 100 life."?

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Still have to deal with the (unlikely) corner case of both players simultaneously having 100 life, but that makes sense in avoiding the "ignore the round rule, because alternate win conditions are better" strategy.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Still have to deal with the (unlikely) corner case of both players simultaneously having 100 life, but that makes sense in avoiding the "ignore the round rule, because alternate win conditions are better" strategy.

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We already have a rule for both players reaching 0 life at the same time, so I think this would be the same.

I'm with maxx! in reading the "if no player can reach 100 life" sentence as simple reminder text, that the round rules are just replacing "0 and you die" with "100 and you win", along with "poison counters don't kill you" and making Leyline of Punishment not work.

This is both how I read it and what I would vote for, but I'll play whatever Asthereal declares.

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Originally Posted by maxx!

The way I read it, that bolded sentence is more like reminder text than rules text. I was thinking that the actual rules are:

1. You don't lose from having 0 or less life
2. You don't lose from having 10 or more poison counters
3. You win if you have 100 or more life

The part about draws makes sense as a reminder of what happens when nobody meets a victory condition in 4CB, rather than a round rule itself. But I might be wrong. That's the only way it made sense to me.

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This is indeed how I meant it. Just as a reminder, though it wasn't technically necessary.

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Originally Posted by dte

Simple rule proposition: "you win if and only if you reach 100 life."?

That way we are sure that there is no bypass (we would need to ban pact of negation, but that's it I think).

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I would prefer the addition that effects that make you win or an opponent lose instead do nothing.
That way we won't need to ban all the things and proceed to forget one and wreck the round.

But this leads to a more important question: do we want to drop the alternate wincons?

So who's in favor of that?

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I would prefer the addition that effects that make you win or an opponent lose instead do nothing.

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That sounds a more elegant way to me, but I am good with both choices.

I don't really care either way.
I just wanted it clarified.
I just thought it would be a bit weird if I was attempting an alternate win and didn't have any life gain in my deck, i'd have to ensure that opponent didn't lose his life gain or game would become a draw.

for sake of simplicity
I think you can only win if you reach 100 life makes sense.
I still think you should be able to lose of effects you control like Pact of ..." or Souldrinker

Souldrinker can't ever kill, because you can't pay below 0 life, and the round rule stops that from losing.

Alternate win conditions probably don't add much, especially if the goal is to make the round rule actually relevant.

Well Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation, City of Brass, Helix Pinnacle seems like a dumb deck, winning at -81 life after 2 "lose the game" triggers. So I wouldn't object to one of those rules changes.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Well Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation, City of Brass, Helix Pinnacle seems like a dumb deck, winning at -81 life after 2 "lose the game" triggers. So I wouldn't object to one of those rules changes.

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Yeah, without the lose trigger I think Pact of Negation is way too strong.

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Originally Posted by maxx!

Yeah, without the lose trigger I think Pact of Negation is way too strong.

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The potential proposal was to void any text that says "you win" or "opponent loses", so Pact of Negation is clear regardless.

I vote for of allowing alternative win conditions, but it's not a strong a preference, so feel free to remove them.

1. Asthereal (TO): Remote Farm, City of Traitors, Windborn Muse, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2. Reeplcheep: Rain of Tears , Inkmoth Nexus, Urborg, Yomb of Yawgmoth , Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Lotus Petal, Kuldotha Rebirth, Feldon's Cane
4. alphastryk: Khalni Garden, Golgari Rot Farm, Awakening Zone, Sprout Swarm
5. dte: City of traitors, Lotus petal, Energy field, Scalding tongs
6. Tylert: Great furnace, Kuldotha rebirth, Unmask, Force of despair
7. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Devoted Druid, Hornet Queen
8. Wrath of Pie: City of Traitors, Ratchet Bomb, Hangarback Walker, Hangarback Walker
9. H: Great Furnace, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Kuldotha Rebirth
10. silkster: Shivan Gorge, Mercadian Bazaar, Lotus Petal, Energy Field
11. FTW: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Murderous Rider
12. Serguei: Force of Despair, Unmask, Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth
13. maxx!: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Duress, Bitterblossom

1. Asthereal: I will allways force windborn muse and attack elspeth for the win. 6-0 --> 6
2. Reeplcheep: Tabernacle kills my goblins. 0-6 --> 6
3. Goblinsmashmaster: I can force the first 3 goblins OTP and OTD and win from there. 6-0 --> 12
4. alphastryk: I can allways force your first token FTW. 6-0 --> 18
5. dte: If you play field first I can unmask tongs. If you play tongs first I can unmask field. 6-0 --> 24
6. Me.
7. jhhdk: I can unmask Druid FTW OTP and OTD. 6-0 --> 30
8. Wrath of Pie: You will allways have more threats than me. 0-6 --> 30
9. H: I can force one rebirth and draw. 2-2 --> 32
10. Silkster: OTP I can unmask field. OTD it arrives one turn before I can do anything. 3-3 --> 35
11. FTW: Tabernacle Kills me. 0-6 --> 35
12. Serguei: Same deck. 2-2 --> 37
13. Maxx!: OTP I can unmask Bitterblossom for the draw. 1-4 --> 38.

Total 38.

That was my deck which was going 4/1 vs chancellor T1 combo. I'm not sure wether this is better against the meta with chancellor or without chancellor. The funny thing with this deck is that it wins on the draw and draws on the play :)

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Originally Posted by silkster

The potential proposal was to void any text that says "you win" or "opponent loses", so Pact of Negation is clear regardless.

I vote for of allowing alternative win conditions, but it's not a strong a preference, so feel free to remove them.

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So right now we have one against removing alternate wincons, and the rest seems in favor so far.
Anyone else with an opinion either way speak up, because I'll make a decision soon. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

That was my deck which was going 4/1 vs chancellor T1 combo. I'm not sure wether this is better against the meta with chancellor or without chancellor. The funny thing with this deck is that it wins on the draw and draws on the play :)

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DW is easily the rarest result (and the counterpart LD), so it is always an amusing match result to get. Force of Despair has the issue of being rather specific, and the advantage of being fast was lost a bit with the metagame not rotating around t1 kills. I probably still would have preferred Ratchet Bomb even in that metagame because of its potential against control pieces (doing well against Chancellor isn't worth giving up points against Bridge/Energy Field) while still splitting against Chorge strategies.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

DW is easily the rarest result (and the counterpart LD), so it is always an amusing match result to get. Force of Despair has the issue of being rather specific, and the advantage of being fast was lost a bit with the metagame not rotating around t1 kills. I probably still would have preferred Ratchet Bomb even in that metagame because of its potential against control pieces (doing well against Chancellor isn't worth giving up points against Bridge/Energy Field) while still splitting against Chorge strategies.

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The deck I had to beat all the controlish decks and chancelor ones was pretty good so sad for all these latest bans

Force of vigor + Great Furnace + Kuldotha Rebirth +Vine Dryad

For me we should be able to win only with the PV ( if oppo played a Pact of negation he should still loose)

And I am voting to ban all effect that will prevent the lifegain