Quote:
Originally Posted by daPaule
Which M/Us does War Marshall shine and which ones are the not so great ones?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daPaule
Which M/Us does War Marshall shine and which ones are the not so great ones?
From my point of view and limited experience he's great as soon as you have a chieftain ingame. Then he's 2 for 1 and you're not losing tempo when he gets sacrificed in your upkeep. You can thumbblock a goyf 3 times with him, in case you have the mana or opponent is attacking directly/vialed Marshal in.
He would have allowed me to get an out in the Zoo match just because he brings 2 goblins in play where others just don't. Problem was opponent had removal/burn for the 2nd Goblin too, so still no Gempalm. Also he's ok vs Smokestack, Small Pox, Spotremoval.
And the obvious: 3 Siege-Gang shots, when i did this the board was already full of goblins so it didn't matter :wink:
He simply isn't that great when u don't have a chieftain.
He competes for his slot with Gempalm and Scourger i think.
All three cost 2 mana, noone pays echo, regarding their use (so cycle for Incinerator):
Gempalm gets rid of one attacker/blocker if the board is filled with enough goblins.
Marshall brings 2 attackers or 2(/3) blockers, which just aren't that impressive when there's no lord in play.
Scourger removes one attacker or removes one blocker and goes in the fight.
So he's better on the defense than scourger and worse on the offense regarding plain numbers, on the other hand improving the defense in a goblin deck may already be a waste of slots and he does nothing vs a resolved dreadnought.
In my case i usually liked him cause he's 'immune' to spot removal, simply as that.
Generally anything with removal or creatures, War Marshall is good against. So not combo. Though it was recently instrumental in my defeat of a Belcher deck by helping in the overcoming of a swarm of Goblin tokens from Empty The Warrens.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Anyway, I am going to take this opportunity to plug Piledriverless and Warchiefless Goblins again, as I have updated the decklist a bit and have a much better understanding of it.
16 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin War Marshall
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
I like this version better than regular goblins because I think it has a much better ‘Plan B’. ‘Plan A’ is to connect with Lackey or Instigator and just win. Plan B is to try and amass an army of goblins to overcome the opponents to defenses in the mid game. Basically, you just sit around and amass Goblins until you draw Goblin Chieftain, and then you win in one or two attacks. A traditional Goblins deck has a ‘Plan B’ of amassing a bunch of goblins and attacking, but typically doesn’t have the focus on token generation, doesn’t run the maximum of Goblins Chieftains, and doesn’t have the best tools to let you live long enough to make this happen (Stingcourger and Goblin War Marhall can individually buy multiple turns against Aggro decks, while Warren Weirding buys only one, for example). Basically, I find regular Goblins to have a wishy washy 'Plan B". You need to ride the explosiveness of Warchief and Piledriver while dodging removal and blockers. The big thing is that one blocker kills Piledriver, and then you are left with a couple 2/2s and 1/1s. My 'Plan B' is to swing with a hoard of 2/2s and 3/3s, and, when some of them die, to untap and attack with more.
The shortcoming of my version of the deck the lack of explosiveness afforded by Piledriver and Warchief, where you can win sometimes by playing Warchief and than play a bunch of goblins for cheap and get there with Piledriver. My version of the deck is designed to clog up the ground with Stingscourger and War Marshall enough so that you don’t need this sort of midgame explosiveness to win games,you just need to amass Goblins untill you can stick a Goblin Chieftain.
Manabase- It started out as 18 Mountains and 4 Wastelands, but I changed it to 4 Mutavault, because that card is excellent in this deck. It powers up your Incinerators for 1 and is a solid extra man when it comes time finish your opponent off. However, I recently switched it to a 3-3 split of Vautls and Wastelands and cut some mountains, because of problem cards, like other Mutavaults, Mishra’s Factory, Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith and Academy Ruins. Since the deck does not run Warchief to make your spells cheaper, you are generally should be frugal with these.
8 Lackeys- These are great. Warren Instigator is something your opponents have to answer, and them wasting removal on it is typically fine, because it will clear the way for Goblin Chieftain later. Also, in a traditional Goblins deck, late game lackey’s often suck, but here the extra bodies are always useful for the turn when you drop Chieftain and win.
War Marshall, Incinerator and Stingscourger- All of these cards are great in this deck. War Marshall is AWESOME in this deck, because it clogs the board in the early game, and the tokens will when you the game when the become 2/2s. Basically a mini Siege-Gang. The card makes Incinerator much better. Incinerating a Goyf is not out of the question for this deck. Stingscourger is awesome, great for helping your Lackeys get through, and buying time against other agro decks and it bounces your own War Marshalls and Siege-Gangs to keep the goblin tokens coming.
On the whole, Warchief and Piledriver would be good cards in my deck, but there just isn't really room for them.
Are you serious? Piledriver is probably one of the best cards in the deck. Your playing the deck completely wrong with this strategy. Goblins is good because its fast and keeps pumping creatures out. Its fast because piledriver deals 10+ by turn 3 or 4. It keeps pumping creatures out by making them cheaper with warchief. Goblins don't "wait". Waiting gives your opponent time to do what they need to do. There is no reasons goblins should be slowed played. Slowplaying allows for humility, ghostly prison, Iona, Progenitus, etc. I don't see how this version is better than the normal mono red or r/b versions of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
Maybe the previous post is a trollpost?
Anyways...
Recently, I have been seeing a lot of builds with no Rishadan Ports because of Warren Instigator.
If I am planning to run both Ports and Instigators, what are the ideal ratio between them? 3 Ports and 3 Instigators (on 22-23 lands)?
I guess I should explain the theory behind my deck, so here it is:
Think critically about Piledriver versus Lackeys for a second.
Piledriver
Wins games when it connects
Needs multiple other Goblins to be good
Requires you to overcommit
Lackeys
Wins games when it connects
Doesn't require you to overcommit
Just needs another Goblin in hand to be good
Clearly Lackey effects are the true hero of Goblins early game. Hence I run 8 of them, and are backed up with Stingscourger and as many Seige-Gangs as I could fit.
Next, think about how goblins wins games, either in the early game rush, or by overwhelming your opponent with Matron/Ringleader/Siege-Gang. Goblin Piledriver plays a wishy-washy role between the two, sort of at helping both ends, but primarily being useful somewhere in the middle, after the your opponent has expent resources dealing with your early rush but before better cards like Ringleader and Siege-Gang come along. What I have done here is instead focus on cards that play a clear role in helping to bridge the gap between the two. The primary motivation for this is that it is your best chance against decks with efficient creatures and cheap removal, namely Zoo and Tempo Thresh.
This does make the deck a tad slower, but it helps the deck be well positioned to be overwhelming in the mid-to-late game (we are talking turns 4-6, typically).
This is a terrible example to prove the value of Piledriver. To connect for 10+ by turn 3 or 4, you need to either connect with Goblin Lackey or your opponent has nothing for the first 4 turns of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
This deck is better poised to handle the problems you mention. Progenitus is easily overwhelmed if they don't get it until turn 4 or so. This build handles humility better than most due to the extra token generation from War Marshall, which is also better than most goblins against Wrath and other mass removal. Ghostly Prison comes down turn 3 at the latest, Piledriver is not going to save unless your opponent does nothing else and is especially bad after Prison is down. Again, War Marshall tokens will be useful when it comes time to start flinging htem with Siege-Gang.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
On the whole, by cutting Piledriver, you lose a turn of your Goldfish, and gain much more opportunity for a better mid game.
Why are you comparing lackey to piledriver? Theres no doubt as to whether or not lackey is played. I also run they 8 lackey effects but piledriver as well. You seem to really be comparing Mogg Warmarshall to Piledriver, and I think 9 times out of 10 piledriver is a better two drop. Not to mention, piledriver is what gives us the upperhand against merfolk. I mean your welcome to play any list you want, but piledriver has been run since he came out, and just about every list that tops plays him. But maybe you're list will change things.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
Lackeys are good at what they do, Piledriver isn't. Since we now have 8 Lackeys, Piledriver isn't necessary to get those early combo wins. War Marshall gets us to where our mid to late game cards are good, and make the deck much stronger as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
Merfolk is harder, but still hard to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
I think the reality of Piledriver is that it requires you to overcommit to the board and can be a win more, but it wins many more games than it loses. As more efficient creatures like Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacat are printed, Goblins is going to have to rely on tribal synergy to win games, as opposed to superior creatures. It may not yet be the time to cut Piledriver to make room for full sets of Mogg War Marshall and Goblin Chieftain, but it is bound to happen as the power level of regular creatures is pushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
Attacking for 10 on turn 3 is what gets you a game 1 win against combo. Other than that, we're screwed, unless you can pull a turn 2 or 3 Earwig Squad in RB goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
War Marshal is a good creature, he buys you a lot of time against aggro decks with better creatures than ours and gets us into the late game where we can beat aggro with card advantage. He sucks in any other matchup besides aggro because he's just too slow. Piledriver can swing games, and at the very least he's the only guy we have that can trade with a Goyf (a big Driver threat will make them keep a Goyf back to block if they can't draw removal). He also lets us race Progenitus better than a bunch of crappy tokens, and in the event that Progenitus has to be left behind to block, we can still get our house through. He also blocks War Monk all day, which is pretty crucial for us.
Also, as far as 'overcommiting' goes, have you realized that every non-land card in our deck is either a creature or Aether Vial (or Weirding in RB)? This means that just under 60% of our deck is creatures, so are you going to hold guys in your hand once you hit 2 or 3 on board? Every guy either presents an individual must-answer (Lackey/Warchief effects) or a completely relevant ETB ability (Scourger, Matron, Ringleader), or both (Siege-Gang). Also, if you don't have a lot of guys out, Incinerator is useless against the big threats of the format (Goyf, Tombstalker, etc.). If they play a sweeper, we can refill the board in 2 turns, max. This is not an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
What's the difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
Unfortunately, its the tribal synergy between goblins that makes this deck competitive.
You know what, if does not want to run Piledrivers, dont force him.
On the other hand, there was a thread here on how mono-red goblins get around Plagues. I just run Boartusk Lieges. I guess they're also alright against Zoo as they have a big behind.
I haven't really tried Kings against Zoo.
This is what I'm wondering too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
Piledriver has never been that great as a 11/2 or 9/2 or whatever. Piledriver shines around the 5/2 stage. His role in the deck is to speed up your win to prevent your opponents from being able to find answers to your questions.
Although we can't play off MWM like he is nothing. It is still viable in some builds, specifically builds like BKclassic that focus on hordes, but that doesn't really fit my playstyle. I'm a 5/2 piledriver kind of guy.
BKclassic I have to disagree with some of your points:
When you say overcommit I assume that you meant attacking with all of your goblins to get pile driver to do the most damage possible. I have to disagree with you here I don't think I've ever lost a game because I overcommited to an attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
Usually a glance at the board and I know how much I should commit to the attack. I also don't need always need pile driver to do 10+ damage, sometimes doing 3-5 damage is fine.
Well I think he's got great value, if you have multipul goblins on the board along with pile driver, your opponent will have to respond to him or block him, which can means sometimes they have to choose between taking a big hit from pile driver or letting instigator or lackey hit. If you already have one resolved and it gets mid-late game he becomes even more valuable.Quote:
This is a terrible example to prove the value of Piledriver. To connect for 10+ by turn 3 or 4, you need to either connect with Goblin Lackey or your opponent has nothing for the first 4 turns of the game.
If your opponent is playing blue it also provides a nice bait card (rather have them counter him than some of my other stuff) and if he sticks then he's really good.
Yeah, but if they resolve humility on you, you've pretty much lost and marshall isn't going to help you too much (if at all) anyway.Quote:
This deck is better poised to handle the problems you mention. Progenitus is easily overwhelmed if they don't get it until turn 4 or so. This build handles humility better than most due to the extra token generation from War Marshall, which is also better than most goblins against Wrath and other mass removal. Ghostly Prison comes down turn 3 at the latest, Piledriver is not going to save unless your opponent does nothing else and is especially bad after Prison is down. Again, War Marshall tokens will be useful when it comes time to start flinging htem with Siege-Gang.
Marshall isn't really that helpful after a mass removal, you get a 1/1 token - big whoop. Chances are they have something better in their hand to play after WoG as opposed to your 1/1 goblin token.
If Ghostly Prison hits the board, a marshall is about as worthless as piledriver.
About the only thing I like about marshall is he helps make gempalm more beefy.
Also by the time I need more tokens to play SGC's ability, chances are I pretty much have the won the game already.
I dunno - I suppose this depends on the build. I know that in my build if I cut piledriver and replaced them with marshall - my deck would lose a pretty big punch in exchange for two 1/1 and a hypothetical 1/1 if I lose marshall, if for some odd reason I decided to pay the echo cost.Quote:
On the whole, by cutting Piledriver, you lose a turn of your Goldfish, and gain much more opportunity for a better mid game.
By keeping piledriver - I have a potential threat that my opponent will most likely have to respond to and he also can win games.
IMO, Marshall just doesn't make the cut cause he's just not that good.
Aren't we kept from over-committing anyway, just through our CA and hasty/haste-giving dudes? I mean, we've got Siege-Gang (I dropped Kiki for the third and haven't looked back) Ringleader, and Instigator and Lackey to refill the board. Over-committing is rarely a problem, at least in my MU's.
On another note, I'm pondering my sideboard, and wondering if I should run
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
or
4 Pyrokinesis
Thoughts?
In my experience the only situation I will over commit is to deal the final blow to my opponent otherwise it's not necessary.
I personally never put Sharpshooter in because there's hardly a deck it's good against nowadays. Pyrokinesis is much more useful against decks with creatures bigger than 1/1 which are most.
Yeah, and to tutor up with matron for the final blow.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
Overextension.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
I personally believe this is a topic that is fundamental to understanding how to play this deck. It goes along with understanding our role and adaptability within the game. Being under that umbrella of adaptability, I'd like to share some thoughts on it.
Overcommitting is a fun thing to do, and it is very easy to get caught up in it in a creature wall war with your opponent. They play one goyf, you play two more guys. They play a second goyf, you play two more, etc...but my personal solution to a beefy backcourt from my opponent (such as two goyfs or goyf + RWM) is to accelerate into CA mode. Our more controllish (thinking mainly bant here) opponents won't try to start a creature battle until ...
A) they are getting ready to assume the aggro role or
B) they have run out of more efficient answers to our goblins.
It's hard to assess which one, but most often it is A, so once they start pushing for victory we just have to set up our CA and forget the quick kill.
However, sometimes it is B, and this is a case where we should probably overextend even if it isn't for a final blow. Because we need to kill them quickly. You don't have to suicide rush them (don't do this unless you have all the information available to you), but some heavier risks should be taken if the reason they are laying a bunch of guys is B.
I'd remember two things in that,
1) instead of focusing on overextension and playing it safe and which is better, we should focus on being able to adapt on the fly, because few decks can change in this regard as fast as goblins because of our haste effects, easy ability to swarm a field (though this depends heavily on the build), and our CA engine if we want to play it safe.
2) most decks don't play mass removal anyway, so we shouldn't be too frightened when overextending. Yes there are other things but I'll get to that in a minute below.
ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT IT... I'd like to share this impromptu "step analysis"... generally I feel like most WINS with goblins go two ways:
1) We are Aggro
Step A: Early lackey/vial/instigator forces opponent into answer mode. If they manage to answer the early pressure, move to step B.
Step B: Goblin CA engine gets on while opponent attempts to wrap up the game with their (usually) more efficient deck. Worse players will think that step b is the end of the line but,
Step C: The Goblin CA engine leads to a swarm that kills opponents. We have to overextend in this stage to win before we have to go back to Step B again (and we might not be able to, depending on the ringleaders/matrons/SGCs left in our deck).
2) We are Control
Step A: We stop their early threat (merfolk horde, nacatl, etc.)
Step B: We set up our CA engine and overwhelm them (oftentimes through overextension).
Using this thinking we can see MWM is good when we are playing control and in Step C of us playing aggro. Not horrible, but the most important goblins happen in Step B of both (the card advantage part). When we are aggro, without step B, we cannot move to Step C, forcing us to win in Step A. Without Step B when we are the control deck, well...we could never really assume the control role.
I take two things out of this "step analysis." First, in piloting the deck: Overextension is a critical SKILL (yes a skill) to winning effectively with goblins. Second, and perhaps more importantly, in deckbuilding: We should be making card choices that match up with the step analysis and foster the development of Step B, while making sure we have the fundamentals of goblins in check to keep Step A in both alive.
Conclusion...
Overextension is one of our best friends and one of our biggest enemies. We have been classically conditioned to think it is bad. And sometimes it is. But we should always be remembering this: how can I maximize my percentage chance of winning? Although overextending can lead to bad things, it is often the highest percentage way to win a game. When your opponent laughs at you for mindlessly playing all your gobbos on the board chaining ringleaders, calling you a noob who couldn't even play around WoG, show them this post and punch them in the balls.
About your sideboard, I still dislike sharpshooter. I would go with 4 pyrokinesis.
But honestly, RB and perish are superior to MonoRed and pyrokinesis in today's metagame. With Zoo and ANT at the top of GP:Madrid, and this deck having a questionable matchup versus Bant anything, Red anything, and Dredge (some of the most popular decks at Madrid), I think it might be time to shelf the deck for a bit.
There's nothing wrong with over committing. I don't see too many decks running wrath of god or damnation. Most mass removals cost 4 or more and by that time, it's too late.
And also, that not overextending won't really help you against other non-traditional "board sweepers" like humility, moat, and ghostly prison.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastorm
There are other problems with overextending though. The most obvious one is wasting your matrons on stuff like piledrivers when you should be grabbing the traditional ringleader.
There are also a lot of subtle reasons, such as how you want your opponent to play. Force them to play the game YOUR way, which means overextending when YOU want to. Forcing yourself into the aggro role through overextension is a bad idea a lot of the time. However, overextension is the quickest and easiest way to win with goblins. It's hard to draw real life examples here because these situations are very intricate. But they happen almost every game.
But again, I don't think we should think of it as overextending versus not overextending...but rather, to make sure we have the ability to adapt to a situation fluidly and speedily (what goblins does better than any other deck), and overextension versus not doing it falls under that umbrella.
Humility is very hard for us to beat, but Moat and Ghostly prison do not completely ruin us because we still have SGC, and in that case, we want a lot of guys on board because that is what determines how fast we can pull out a win from under the Moat.
Game 1 against decks that run Humility, Moat, and/or ghostly prison is pretty rough, which is why I run Anarchy in my SB.
I'm playing monoR right now, and pyrokinesis has been pretty underwhelming lately. I have been using pyroblast in its place right now (mainly for RWM). Is there any other options?