All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Jenni

I would much rather they restrict it, like they did in vintage, but Wotc doesn't like to restrict things anymore.

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It sounds like you want to play Vintage, and that's OK, but that doesn't mean Strip Mine would be reasonable in Legacy. The mana bases in Legacy are a defining part of the format and the introduction of Strip Mine would drastically change things. With 4x Strip Mine in the format the incentive for playing basics would be severely reduced (or perhaps even eliminated altogether). What you are suggesting would radically alter a facet of the game that almost everybody likes as-is.

If you want to be able to destroy basics, Ghost Quarter is a card. Anyway, there's no real point in discussing Strip Mine's effect on Legacy because the DCI/Wizards will never ever unban Strip Mine.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Would a 4/4 or 5/5 Juzam Djinn with Trample for 2B be too good? Or just fine? I think it'd probably be just fine.

-Matt

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It would probably suck. Give it pro W, and we can talk. Even with trample it's just a "vanilla" donk who is vulnerable to swords. A creature for 3 mana should either have an immediate effect on the game or win the game if you untap with it. Otherwise it's just a card that does nothing in the early game, gets delayed by Wasteland even further and then dies to Swords...

Btw even if a really awesome black creature gets printed, we won't see competetive mono b decks again, ever. It's more likely that some variant of UB or BUG would become a good deck then. But monoblack is just too vulnerable to so many things. It's less interactive and can't switch gears as easly as any blue deck ever could.
I would give up any hope about some weird monocolored decks rising in the future or blues dominance ending. It's just how the game works on a competetive level - the more options you have and the deeper your levels of interaction are, the more likely you are to have a plan against lots of different decks.

Anyway, I keep my fingers crossed for some awesome black creature in the future to finally be able to play straight UB again. Ah, good old days when black was considered to be the strongest color in the game with all of it's rituals and negators and necropotences and tutors...

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Edit: Black could use a two mana zombie lord.

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I would love a Zombie Lord of Atlantis:

T1: Swamp, Ritual, three 2 power zombies
T2: Urborg, Zombie Lord, swing for unblockable 9 damage
T3: Swing, win (if they can't block your Lord or fetched already twice)

But considering Zombies are currently a force to reckon with in Standard, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

What black needs with the current powercreep are

a) more weenies with Deathtouch for combat relevance
b) Negator-class beaters that don't suck nowadays - pro white and 4+ toughness would definitely be a start.

E.g. Phyrexian Crusader would have been extremely awesome if it had Deathtouch instead of Infect.

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Originally Posted by Jenni

Strip Mine This one is banned more because it's not fun to play against I think, but I rather like the card and would love to have it available. It's certainly powerful, but not completely broken. I can understand why it's banned, but I personally wouldn't mind having it back.

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As others already said, it would warp Legacy in a way that is neither fun nor rewarding (in terms of deck building).

The Zombie lords idea is a good point. Perhaps we can expect some Zombie love once they rotate.. and that might switch up modern as well.

I still think black has been getting some love and thankfully cards like Gravecrawler aren't getting played in blue because they are specifically designed to get played with other black cards. I think the main problem with creating black creatures with power creep is that its easier to do if you make them utility creatures.. like the infamous 'Chains of Mephistopheles' Confidant-esque creature we've discussed for years.

But I'm looking more at something like a black Goyf.


(creature) BB
Creature - Demon
Whenever ~ attacks, discard a card.
Whenever a player discard a card, ~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
2/2
R

Would blue play that? Meh perhaps. Being able to use discard to pump your dudes is kinda cool though. Might work well with Liliana as well.

just out of curiosity... but what would happen to this format if someone at Wizards of the Coast decided it would be a good idea to ban Karakas just because they can?

EDIT: Sorry, I know this will probably start all sorts of flames. But I seriously see this as a potential problem given the fact that Miracles, Maverick AND Death and Taxes all run Karakas, not to mention any other deck that wants an answer to Reanimator. My concern is that someone at Wizards will see the density of Karakas in the format and decide that the card is dominating the format, and therefore decide that they should ban it for that reason.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

just out of curiosity... but what would happen to this format if someone at Wizards of the Coast decided it would be a good idea to ban Karakas just because they can?

EDIT: Sorry, I know this will probably start all sorts of flames. But I seriously see this as a potential problem given the fact that Miracles, Maverick AND Death and Taxes all run Karakas, not to mention any other deck that wants an answer to Reanimator. My concern is that someone at Wizards will see the density of Karakas in the format and decide that the card is dominating the format, and therefore decide that they should ban it for that reason.

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What? Are you seriously worried Karakas will be banned?

I put the odds of that happening at negative infinity %.

Also how is Karakas dominating the format? It is worse than a Plains probably 25-50% of the time it hits play. Of all the words to define Karakas in Legacy, dominating doesn't come to mind. It's a good-great utility land, nothing more.

your objection of my post is based on a hypothetical member of the Wizards of the Coast Staff who I made up in my mind purely for the express purpose of demonstrating that the possibility for such a staff member to exist and come to an outrageous (and mind you, incorrect) conclusion regarding the status of Karakas in the Legacy Format could actually happen is hilarious.

I was not saying that I believe that Karakas is dominating the format. What I was saying was that it is possible that someone on the Wizards of the Coast Staff could come to the wrong conclusion about the status of Karakas in our format and call for it's banning. Additionally my question was more geared towards a hypothetical question of "What would happen if it WERE to be banned." Since this is a banned list speculation thread, I figured speculation on the what if's regarding the effect of banning a specific card wouldn't be too out of place. But if I am wrong, the Mods are perfectly within their rights to tell me otherwise and I will drop the subject.

What's the base of your speculation? See, there is none, so it's totally pointless. Also, I have no clue why you think someone at wotc would randomly have that idea. Because it's banned in EDH and wotc would want to make Legacy more like EDH?

Impact on the format would be little. Reanimator might become better, while W based decks would lose a few percentages against random legends or not being able to bounce their own creature. Obv DnT would instantly die. So all it would do is randomly screwing decks, while adding no benefit to the format as in making it more healty.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

What? Are you seriously worried Karakas will be banned?

I put the odds of that happening at negative infinity %.

Also how is Karakas dominating the format? It is worse than a Plains probably 25-50% of the time it hits play. Of all the words to define Karakas in Legacy, dominating doesn't come to mind. It's a good-great utility land, nothing more.

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WTF, Karakas keeps these ridiculous 2-card herp-derp combo decks, allowing us to enjoy brokeness in our format without being overrun by mindless strategies. It's great for our format. What's next, banning all forms of graveyard hate, Mindbreak Trap, and Force of Will?

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

My concern is that someone at Wizards will see the density of Karakas in the format and decide that the card is dominating the format, and therefore decide that they should ban it for that reason.

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So, you think they might ban a card based on it being in a lot of decks...and you come to the conclusion that Karakas would be that card, rather than the cards that see significantly more play than Karakas, like Brainstorm, Force of Will, Wasteland, or Swords to Plowshares?

What is this I don't even.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

If we are being over the top ridiculous, I forgot to mention Norin the Wary as well.
I was talking about playable creatures at the one mana slot.

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The Ogre was a Stompy staple for years. Kird Ape was also rather popular. Black never had a monopoly on playable 2/2s for one mana, they just happened to have a few more decent ones kicking around.

My current list of cards that i want unbanned are;

Earthcraft
Mana Drain
Survival of the Fittest

And i want Vengevine to be put on the banned list.

Really, Survival has always been a toolbox deck that is really grindy and sweet. Vengevine was the card that put it over the top. Mana Drain is better than counterspell, but i doubt it'll see an immense amount of play. However the price on it would skyrocket and that would be horrible. If they reprinted it i'd be all for unbanning this card. Please no 400$ mana drains plix. Earthcraft is a two piece combo that doesn't win you the game on the spot, seems fair. We have other combos in the meta, why not this?

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Originally Posted by Stoyrm

My current list of cards that i want unbanned are;

Earthcraft
Mana Drain
Survival of the Fittest

And i want Vengevine to be put on the banned list.

Really, Survival has always been a toolbox deck that is really grindy and sweet. Vengevine was the card that put it over the top. Mana Drain is better than counterspell, but i doubt it'll see an immense amount of play. However the price on it would skyrocket and that would be horrible. If they reprinted it i'd be all for unbanning this card. Please no 400$ mana drains plix. Earthcraft is a two piece combo that doesn't win you the game on the spot, seems fair. We have other combos in the meta, why not this?

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I would like to see Mana Drain unbanned, barring a reprint to keep the price down. The only counter-argument I have heard for not unbanning Mana Drain is that it is a spell that could enable a turn three Jace. However, I fail to see why this should be a concern in a format that can get Emrakul into play on turn two.

Before they ban Karakas they should ban Island, if your non-reason for ban is format dominance.

I'd love to see SotF unbanned, I don't mind if Vengevine would be legal at the same time since I believe the deck was never so broken as lots of players pretend it was. And Surgical and Snapcaster Mage have been printed in the meantime. Given the amount of amazing creatures WG has had lately, a no-Vengevine-based Maverick/SotF brew would be a serious contender. I want it legal again... Survival offered lots of deckbuilding possibilities and rewarded playskill (obviously before VV). RGBSA we miss you.

Hmm ... I'm inclined to say Lion's Eye Diamond should be banned, if only because almost every combo deck benefits from having it. However, I strongly believe its cousin, Lotus Petal, should be hit before it, as that enables all the turn 1 wins any combo deck can potentially muscle out. Spirit Guides are somewhat of a consideration, but to be fair Petal adds one mana of any color to your mana pool, ups storm count for free, and has a greater presence that both SGs and LEDs outside of Dredge.

As for unbans . . . not really sure.

Currently, there are no turn1 kills in the format with good enough expected value to even consider banning either Lotus Petal or Lion's Eye Diamond. With great speed comes great vulnerability and there are just too many Force of Will, Spell Pierce and IoK/Thoughtseize or other forms of hate flying around to make dedicated turn1 kills worthwile. No need to ban any of the accelerators. I can understand that you might feel "cheated" when your Goblins deck loses to turn1 Goblin Charbelcher, but truth is, in comparions, your Goblin deck is likely to win more matches over the course of the tournament.

I don't think Mana Drain should be part of this format. As much as I love Drain, it's just not a part of Legacy anymore.

for unbannings, I'd like to see Mind Twist and Survival of the Fittest come off. We have grave-hate now. Surgical is just the nutter0butters against the "Oops I win" strategy.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I don't think Mana Drain should be part of this format. As much as I love Drain, it's just not a part of Legacy anymore.

for unbannings, I'd like to see Mind Twist and Survival of the Fittest come off. We have grave-hate now. Surgical is just the nutter0butters against the "Oops I win" strategy.

-Matt

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People seemed to have forgotten that Survival decks could easiily win without Vengevine. And they also ran Force of Will and Daze to combat Surgical Extraction(despite this not existing at the time.

I personally don't miss SotF, but I may be in the minority. SotF, like Show and Tell, continously got stronger as players realized its potential and better cards were printed.

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Originally Posted by Stoyrm

Mana Drain is better than counterspell, but i doubt it'll see an immense amount of play.

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You're joking right? Turn 2 Mana Drain, turn 3 Jace or other threat at 2 mana with MANA OPEN to protect it. Think about how good that is on the play. Mana Drain is better than Force of Will because rather than having to lose a card you GAIN tempo. Maybe not broken, but certainly fuck-nuts good and would get a ton of play.

Mana Drain in legacy would be wrong, in my humble opinion.

I want to see Mind Twist unbanned. It opens you up to tapping out, which in turn opens you up to cheap spells like Spell Pierce and Daze. If it resolves, you're doing really well but most of the time,at worst, it will land in the 3-4 mana range where someone gets Hymn-ed or loses 3 cards. Good? Yes. Broken? Not really. Beyond that stage in the game, hands are usually empty or near empty anyways and the board state is more important (unless you're playing against combo, then it could be auto-win against them. Other than dredge, of course.) If you've ever played against Pox decks you know that Liliana is better than Mind Twist because she SUSTAINS empty hand/top deck situations. Mind Twist is a tempo/control play, and a somewhat risky one at that.

My opinion...but it could be that I just want to use it as a way to empty my opponents hand and then ride my playset of Jace to victory. That would be epic...

Drain in Legacy would be cool to test out, at least. I feel like people don't evaluate it in context. What are you really Draining into? The god-hand plays would be Jace, Batterskull, etc. You can't really justify bigger spells like Sundering Titan just on the off chance you get a good Drain off.