[Primer] Nic Fit

Hello,

Thank you. I like where you are going.

Last time I won a Legacy tournament (few years ago). I was playing a straight GB Nic Fit list. 4 vet + 4 therapy was the way to go.
The deck was full of bullets.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21401&f=LE

But I was already shrinking the sheer amount of removals, sweepers from the deck (1 deed 1 toxic). And if I remember well Wurm and Enforcer were the MVP from this tournament. I won 3 or 4 games just because of them.

Today, more than ever, I want to jam "threats" with ETB triggers. I want, as a Nic Fit deck, a creature that can reverse the tide of a game for any given matchup I can face in this meta.
And of course, I want it on demand (=gszable)

To my taste, cards' power has rocket-up (look @ Murktide).
We don't play Scavenging ooze any more. We jam Endurance now.
I feel like we no longer "build" a board. I don't grind anymore. Usually, I just brute force my way out.

I'm still convinced that we can build a "somehow" competitive Nic Fit list again.
But to do that we need gszable creature cards that breaks:
- combo deck (Archon ? Endurance ? Ruric ? what else?)
- Control decks (Card Advantage ?, Hexproof ? Haste ?)
- aggro/tempo decks (sweepers ? lifegain ?)

When I have some more spare time, I'll write a list of interesting creatures.


Ralf

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Originally Posted by Ralf

But to do that we need gszable creature cards that breaks:
- combo deck (Archon ? Endurance ? Ruric ? what else?)

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Archon of Valor's Reach
Collector Ouphe
Endurance
Gaddock Teeg?

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- Control decks (Card Advantage ?, Hexproof ? Haste ?)

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Tireless Tracker
Questing Beast
Carnage Tyrant
Thrun, Breaker of Silence
Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Grist, the Hunger Tide
Hexdrinker
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Atraxa, Grand Unifier
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Indominus Rex, Alpha
Undermountain Adventurer

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- aggro/tempo decks (sweepers ? lifegain ?)

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Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Kitchen Finks
Courser of Kruphix
Mawloc

There are so many good GSZable creatures.

Edit: Is it worth building more deeply around Indominus Rex, Alpha? Card seems busted and mana cost is more flexible than others.

You could spam creature tutors and a few keyword-rich targets, then play something that checks the graveyard like Recurring Nightmare, Soulflayer, or Kathril, Aspect Warper to get value from discarding the stupidly good creatures.

Standout keyword spammers:
3 CMC
Venomthrope (3, GSZable, hexproof!)
Mantis Rider (3)
Nighthawk Scavenger (3)
Broadside Bombardiers (2, sac outlet)
Bontu the Glorified (2, sac outlet)
Rhonas the Indomitable (2, makes 1/1s threats)

4 CMC
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice (4, GSZable)
Questing Beast (3, GSZable)

5 CMC
Elder Gargaroth (3, GSZable, draw engine)
Samut, Voice of Dissent (3, GSZable)
Chromanticore (5, GSZable, pitches to FoW and Endurance, hard to cast but covers all of Akroma's words at lower cmc & enchants Veteran)

6 CMC
Archon of Valor's Reach (3, GSZable)
Two-Headed Hellkite (3, GSZable, draws cards)

Higher CMC
Atraxa, Grand Unifier (4, GSZable, draws)
Sphinx of the Steel Wind (4)
Zetalpa, Primal Dawn (5 including 2 rarer ones, but not GSZable and hard to cast)


Not saying to play all of those. But between a few you can cover a wide range of keywords for value.

Oh, one creature I think is very high impact and that needs ramping is Bane of Progress. It was brought up several times in the Discord. If artifact decks are popular, then I think this is very attractive. But Collector Ouphe for 2 mana is probably needed also, early interaction is usually quite important.

What about a BUG build?

Ice-Fang Coatl seems bad in a Bowmasters meta. You want it to ambush Murktide, but most Murktide decks run Bowman so it doesn't do what you need it to do (the draw causes Coatl to suicide vs on board Bowmaster).

Venomthrope is a bit slow but not conditional on snow basics and doesn't die to removal, so it's a reliable defender. Also 3 keywords.

Punishing Fire also seems past its prime. It hasn't seen much competitive success in a while.

The best weenie killer is to just play your own Bowman. Bowman also pings Veteran and makes token sacrifice fodder, good synergy. The army even gets proliferated by mini-Atraxa.

I like the idea of FoW + Brainstorm over Therapy though. Better draws. Between Bowman and Flare there are enough Vet killers to cut Therapy.

Indominus Rex, Alpha seems very strong. Easy to cast in BUG too.


//Lands: 18
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Zagoth Triome

//Spells: 17
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Once Upon A Time
2 Flare of Cultivation

//Creatures: 24
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Endurance
2 Venomthrope
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Questing Beast
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Elder Gargaroth
2 Indominus Rex, Alpha
2 Generous Ent
1 Two-Headed Hellkite
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier

//Planeswalker: 1
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide

//Sideboard: 15
3 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Force of Vigor
1 Endurance
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Plague Engineer
1 Harvester of Misery
1 Bane of Progress
1 Archon of Valor's Reach


8 creatures with 3+ keywords = 3 cards with Rex.
Keywords covered: Flying, trample, vigilance, lifelink, deathtouch, menace, haste, reach, hexproof

The maindeck creatures that cost more than 4 all draw cards! Of the ones that cost 4+, 2 have haste, 3 have ETB abilities, and 2 trigger at end step. Immediate value.
5 fatties pitch to FoW and all pitch to Endurance. Between those and Rex, they should rarely be stuck dead in hand. Ent fixes mana early and pitches to Rex later.

Sheoldred's Edict (or Run Afoul) is to deal with big flyers: Marit Lage, Emrakul, Archon of Cruelty, Atraxa, Murktide. Edict also hits planeswalkers, but Run Afoul might be better at hitting the big flyers reliably. Pick your Poison and Deadly Brew are other options. Poison covers the same ground as FoV, saving SB space. Deadly Brew has insane synergy (sac Veteran, return Ent/fatty). But sorcery speed could be losing vs Marit Lage.

Carpet is obviously as ramp vs blue tempo

I included Bane of Progress but it's slow. You want Ouphe early and Force of Vigor is important to stop fast combos, so Bane becomes the 4th artifact hate card. Maybe that slot should go to something else?

That's a pretty cool list, FTW! And I'm getting really interested in this Indominus Rex, Alpha dinosaur, going to have to think about how to use it me too.

Edit: Oh, and I'd say Leovold is a great maindeck card, it's a great card in basically all matchups.

Hello,

You all are "Princes" and I mean it.

FTW is spot on.

Indominus is really fun to play with. Few drawbacks and high reward. I usually draw 3+ cards with, ditching out higher CMC or any low impact creature given the matchup I'm facing.
Small tips here: do not hesitate to do so because with endurance in your deck you can always put back all the creatures in your graveyard you want to re-use later on (with a GSZ for example)

The creature's list you have given is perfect.

Bane of progess and Questing beast were in the MD during quite a lot of testing but eventually, PWs were stronger (Jace & Teferi).
Collateral damages I guess. Putting one more card in hand on Atraxa and having something else that has to be dealt with was nice.
I also tested pretty intensively Mawloc. Down from 3 to 0. It could have been a great addition but eventually far too much mana intensive...

Still, Bane of progress is in my side alongside Ouphe. I don't think we need more artifact hate but you never know.
Gaddock also is, I guess, a mandatory target for sideboard tables. I kinda like Ruric. That old dude is a beast.

Here is a SB sample:

SB: 1 Bane of Progress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Veil of Summer
SB: 1 Collector Ouphe
SB: 1 Force of Vigor
SB: 1 Force of Negation
SB: 1 Brazen Borrower
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
SB: 1 Thrun, Breaker of Silence
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed


As far as color choice are on the table, RED might not be the best third color to add to the party.
I agree with FTW, with Bowmaster everywhere; Coatl is pretty weak.
Being pitchable to FOW and most of the time an instant cantrip doesn't completely erase the drawback but for me it was a good addition (not enough blue card to support FOW otherwise)

Punishing fire seems also to be something from the past.

Still, I need to deal with Scam and Goblins. In Temur, recursive choices are kinda of poor.

I'll try to build a BUG list as well and do some testing.

Don't hesitate to continue reporting ideas or test results !

Ralf


@FTW:

PS: I really think we need to deal with Opposition agent MD. Otherwise, we are dead.
: I feel like we also need something to deal with Marit MD...my wurm sole purpose. Relying on the SB can be dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

@FTW:

PS: I really think we need to deal with Opposition agent MD. Otherwise, we are dead.

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Good point. At least Punishing Fire gets it. The last build I tested had 3x Trophy main so cards like that weren't an issue. Cut those for cute stuff. Might need to trim some cute stuff to be a functional deck.

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: I feel like we also need something to deal with Marit MD...my wurm sole purpose. Relying on the SB can be dangerous.

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Didn't realize Wurm was for that, thought it was for combo or burn. I had noticed your other anti-flyer tech doesn't answer Marit Lage, so I opted for Edicts as the Murktide/Archon answers because they also deal with Marit Lage. Run Afoul is probably best at hitting the right problems for the least mana.

Do you find Wurm fast enough? Depths can make T2 20/20. Reanimator makes Archon fast. SneakShow can make T2 threat. I feel like we need a fast answer. Brazen Borrower, Gilded Drake, Phantasmal Image, Stingscourger or just Swords to Plowshares/Solitude are all viable answers. If white is your 3rd color instead of red then it's easy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Good point. At least Punishing Fire gets it. The last build I tested had 3x Trophy main so cards like that weren't an issue. Cut those for cute stuff. Might need to trim some cute stuff to be a functional deck.




Didn't realize Wurm was for that, thought it was for combo or burn. I had noticed your other anti-flyer tech doesn't answer Marit Lage, so I opted for Edicts as the Murktide/Archon answers because they also deal with Marit Lage. Run Afoul is probably best at hitting the right problems for the least mana.

Do you find Wurm fast enough? Depths can make T2 20/20. Reanimator makes Archon fast. SneakShow can make T2 threat. I feel like we need a fast answer. Brazen Borrower, Gilded Drake, Phantasmal Image, Stingscourger or just Swords to Plowshares/Solitude are all viable answers. If white is your 3rd color instead of red then it's easy.

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If they go nuts, you are done.
Nevertheless, in a few games, I was able to "tank" just long enough to power out the Wurm.

Anyway, you are correct. Running black or white might be better. I have a small preference for Edict effect even since the printing of Sheoldred.

As far as Whiptongue Hydra is concerned, I would say it saved me a couple of times. It is the wrath effect I was looking for (i.e you are low on life, and you are facing Murktide, 2 x DRC and of course you can only block one...).

Is Bowmaster any good in Nic Fit ? Did you test it ?
I feel like the card can be completely busted sometimes but also terrible. I feel it's kinda "hit or miss". The good point is at least it can serve as a sac' outlet for veteran.

But I may be totally wrong.


PS: Samut + Venomthrope discarded on Indominus is pretty sick...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Is Bowmaster any good in Nic Fit ? Did you test it ?
I feel like the card can be completely busted sometimes but also terrible. I feel it's kinda "hit or miss". The good point is at least it can serve as a sac' outlet for veteran.

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It's still good at removing stuff, punishing draw effects, and pressuring opponent's life total. It kills enemy Bowmaster, DRC, unflipped Delver, Questing Druid before it gets counters, Coatl/Strix, Elves, Goblins, Mother of Runes, random dorks.

Vs Delver for example, if you Endurance away their graveyard to prevent a Murktide, you create a situation where they can't cycle the Ponder/Brainstorm in hand without killing their own shrunken DRC or unflipped Delver. So they have a choice between developing but suiciding a creature, or not developing and stuck with 1/1s (and uncast Murktide).

In Nic Fit it has added value as a Vet killer or a fodder-generator (for Flare). The last build I tested it in also had Cabal Therapy & Fiend Artisan & Recurring Nightmare (more demand for sac fodder), so Bowmaster's Orc tokens really helped with that, although that strategy has other weaknesses. I need to test the dino build more.

Yeah Venomthrope giving Indominus hexproof is a big reason why I added it (also pitches to FoW and Endurance and blocks nasty flyers almost as fast as Coatl). Double strike + haste too seems nasty.

Yeah, I didn't fully appreciate how important Venomthrope was until I started trying to build a deck with Indominus. I also ran Glissa because I was figuring that way you can always attack through a Murktide Regent, but then you also need lifelink to be able to race it. Anyway, I ended up cutting Glissa.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

In Nic Fit it has added value as a Vet killer or a fodder-generator (for Flare).

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Beware that Flare says "nontoken green creature" (otherwise you could play it in a non-green deck, which would kind of be breaking the pie).

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Originally Posted by snugar_i

Beware that Flare says "nontoken green creature" (otherwise you could play it in a non-green deck, which would kind of be breaking the pie).

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Has anyone tried Flare in a traditional BGx Nic Fit list as additional redundant ramp? It pairs so well with turn 1 Vet Explorer or even turn 1 GSZ into Dryad Arbor. Cabal Therapy is still an awesome card so the deck should still stay BGx imo.

Up the Beanstalk seems really strong as well, especially in the BGu Nic Fit lists that play FoW or Nulldrifter.

Has anybody tested Chthonian Nightmare yet? After seeing it in action in Modern, I've started to wonder what it can do in Nic Fit. Unlike Recurring Nightmare, it only costs 2 mana, which makes it mana-neutral with Explorer - and that's a crucial difference.

Thus you start to pull all of your basics out of your deck pretty fast. If you can somehow achieve on Explorer in play and one in the GY (e.g. with Flare or Tower), you can instantly put all your basics from your library into play as early as T2 by playing switcheroo as long as your black mana supply can last, while also building up energy for Nightmare.

If saccing is part of the cost, couldn't you return the same Explorer you sac'd?

EDIT: Nevermind. On the Gatherer, the Oracle text says there has to be a target to return before sacrificing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

If saccing is part of the cost, couldn't you return the same Explorer you sac'd?

EDIT: Nevermind. On the Gatherer, the Oracle text says there has to be a target to return before sacrificing.

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You always declare targets before paying costs.

It doesn't only have to be Veteran switcheroo.

Priest of Gix is mana-positive (not Modern legal).

You can switch Veteran-Priest or Veteran-Veteran to pull out all the lands. Or Priest-Priest to make infinite mana & storm.

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Originally Posted by FTW

It doesn't only have to be Veteran switcheroo.

Priest of Gix is mana-positive (not Modern legal).

You can switch Veteran-Priest or Veteran-Veteran to pull out all the lands. Or Priest-Priest to make infinite mana & storm.

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Priest works, but then you're running Priest - which does nothing of true value on its own.