[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by lotriderm

Game 1 against decks that run Humility, Moat, and/or ghostly prison is pretty rough, which is why I run Anarchy in my SB.

I'm playing monoR right now, and pyrokinesis has been pretty underwhelming lately. I have been using pyroblast in its place right now (mainly for RWM). Is there any other options?

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This. If you aren't running x3 anarchy or x3-4 perish in your sideboard right now, you are doing it wrong. Mainly because Prog is a bitch, but thankfully, Progenitus has been reading up on some of Chomsky's stuff and is digging it, but your opponent doesn't know that, so they won't often play around anarchy very often.

It's a very, very underappreciated little gem in the game of magic. Poor, poor, anarchy.

Oh, and also it is good against white things, such as RWM and moat/humility/prison.

Perish does much of the same but is even better, because you can board it in with more success against the bant decks and the zoo decks. Behind warren weirding, it is THE reason to splash right now.

I don't think pyrokinesis is entirely replaceable in MonoR builds. The tempo boost is so amazing for goblins. You can try something oLdsKoOl like Lightning Bolt, or even consider something like more gempalms. However I don't think I'd want to board in pyroblast against bant, not worth the space IMO.

I am currently using 2x Anarchy, but I might bump it up to 3. But the problem with Pyrokinesis is that I almost always getting 2 for 1'ed, because the opponent's creatures are typically too big, RWM, goyf, nactyl etc. Even against merfolk, if they have 2 lords out, I can't kill both. Most of the time I prefer keeping the other red card instead of removing it because it's another goblin.

Actually, I think MonoR is right for my meta right now. It's pretty undeveloped, and those who bring good decks tend to play blue-based control. I've also seen Enchantress on an occasion or two.
Basically, the point is that everything I'm scared of is white. So, go MonoR with Anarchy until someone starts dragging out Zoo.

I went to GP Madrid and finished 109th out of 2220 people with RB Goblins. I went 8-1 day 1, with 0 byes and went a disappointing 3-5 on day 2 so no money for me. Day 1, I was lucky with my matchups and played some tight Magic, I did the same day 2, but had considerably less luck with pairings and had to take a lot more mulligans. But the increased skill level of the opponents on game 2 should not be disregarded either.

I was quite happy about the maindeck, but very unhappy about my sideboard. The maindeck was identical to Taco's list and included 2 Lightning Bolt instead off 1 Gempalm and 1 Stingscourger. The theory behind Bolt: it adds more 1 drops and therefore you can better handle fast tempo decks and therefore it helps you reach the lategame where you can beat those decks. This theory definately worked out in practice and I was very happy with the card, might go up to 3.

The sideboard however, was a mess, for reference:
4 Relic of Progenitus: was insane, singlehandedly won me at least 3 games and subsequently the match.
4 Thoughtseize: Horrible, I had 3 against ANT and still lost, I will never play this again.
3 Perish: should have definately been 4, was my only out on numerous occasions.
3 REB: I was expecting the Show and Tell deck and figured this would cover the combo, Merfolk and S&T MU. It was good against Merfolk but that MU is so good anyway that it's unneeded.
1 Earwig Squad: Will be moved to the maindeck, I never drew it but it has definately proved it's inclusion in testing.

I need something against Zoo as I lost two matches against inferior opponents. Perhaps Pyrokinesis will work, perhaps more Lightning Bolts, Boartusk Liege could help out, although it conflicts with Perish, maybe something crazy like Basilisk Collar or the solution could be Mogg War Marshall. Let me know what helps you beat the Zoo matchup.

I also had some talks with a Goblins player who sideboards out Goblin Lackey in the Zoo matchup claiming that it never connects anyway and therefore is useless. While I agree that it never connects, it does help you gain tempo as it forces them to either burn a removal spell or hold back a creature and thus ends up doing enough for a measly one mana investment. But I lost both of my matches against Zoo, so clearly I am doing something wrong, but I can't figure out what that is. I would appreciate to hear your views on the Zoo matchup.

I haven't really played against zoo in a tournament since I'm usually the one at my local playing either goblins or Zoo. but have tested a bit. I actually liked Mogg War Marshall v mucht versus zoo..

It was this list: (I posted it before: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...oblins/page195)

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

I never really liked Gempalm Incinerator in goblins but teaming it up with Mogg War Marshal worked wonders for me in the list above.

I wouldn't take out lackey because it does connect sometimes (turn 1 lackey, turn 2 weirding) and then it's good. I guess it's a matter of taking up the control role and try to get to midgame. Best advice I can give is trying to kill as many of his dudes as possible even if it means 2 for 1 so you get as less damage in as possible. And then try to finish it in midgame as quickly as possible.

I agree on siding out Lackey against Zoo. I would put in 3 Perish (I only run 3 in my build) and 2 Relics (obv. side out something else, maybe a Gator, but not sure on this last one yet). I run a 2/2 split between Relic and Crypt, and I think the Relic helps more than the Lackey because it cycles and shrinks Goyf. Instigator probably has a similar problem connecting but he deals 2 damage instead of 1 (and 4 with a Chieftan out), so he has more use in creature combat. He trades with a naked Pridemage.

I run 2 Earwig Squad main, I am a huge proponent of this card and I'm glad you decided to move him MD. I've beaten Pro-Bant, Survival Elves, Entomb Hulk, Spring Tide, and countless other crazy decks solely on prowling him (I understand that I'm only listing 1 tier 1 deck but the point is that it's good against a huge number of decks you may or may not face). With a turn 1 Lackey into a Warchief effect you can get him as early as turn 2. I've also won games simply because he has a bigger body than any other goblin I could have had in that situation (racing a resolved Progenitus, dropping a hasty Craw Wurm changes things a lot). He is good against Zoo because he is our only guy who trades with Goyf.

I suggest Chalice against combo. Currently my combo board is 4 Chalice, 4 Seize. Seize has not hurt me yet, and I only tested Chalice once, but it singlehandedly won me a match against Storm Combo in a local event and I was very satisfied with it.

So how has REB worked out for you against combo? I don't see it helping too much, because blue is just the protection color, it doesn't really factor into most combos. Have you considered Mindbreak Trap? I tried a couple before I put in Chalice but it felt too narrow to me.

@mantis, any chance of a trip report? I'd def want to read it.

I am going to test boarding out Lackeys versus zoo. It is an interesting thought. Does anyone board in Relic of Progenitus? I do, because it makes Goyf and KotR far less threatening, and draws into more business while doing so.

This topic was talked about before many pages back. This was back when the debate was still going on between Thoctar/KotR, but not quite as far back as Stalin/Trotsky.

The general consensus was that boarding out lackey is a bad idea. There were detractors but there numbers were far fewer. The same consensus was reached in NOT boarding in relic. I'm not saying this is correct now, or even was correct then; however, that is what people had decided back then. Remember to think about that when making your decision.

Personally I agree with the past opinions. If you board out lackey you force yourself (pretty much) to play control, losing a lot of adaptability. Yes, playing the control role is usually the easiest path to victory against zoo, but it isn't as good if you can't flexibly move to the other position as well, especially postboard when zoo can POTENTIALLY bring in some really difficult cards for us (though I don't really see cards like pyroclasm in many lists anymore).

I expect an uprising in aggro at the next tournament I will be attending. Here is my list as it stands for testing at the moment:

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
4 Gemplam Incinerator
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Noteables:

No Warren Instigator, running him in tandem with port has been moderate at best, my last tournament I placed 4th running him as a 2 of in my deck and he didnt hit the board once, and got boarded out in almost every game. With more aggro present, the 4th incinerator and a few war marshalls should cover the grounds nicely.

is there some trick with stingscourger that I am missing? Can you get around echo with lackey or aether vial? Because in my testing I found him pretty underwhelming as i rarely found myself in a position to use him when i wanted and be able to pay the echo, which left me feeling like it wasn't worth it for a one time shot.

I don't know, he did wonders for me in the quick Zoo MU's I did online.
Btw, if you don't board out Lackey, what would you board out for, say, 4 Pyrokinesis?

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Originally Posted by markbris

is there some trick with stingscourger that I am missing? Can you get around echo with lackey or aether vial? Because in my testing I found him pretty underwhelming as i rarely found myself in a position to use him when i wanted and be able to pay the echo, which left me feeling like it wasn't worth it for a one time shot.

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You will rarely pay the echo, and you will feel bad when you have to pay the echo because there are a hundred things you would rather do with your mana than pay 4 for a 2/2. You play him for the bounce. He is a great way to deal with a Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Iona (through Vial), or any other fatty cheated into play (except Progenitus). He also works excellent turn 2 after a Lackey to remove your opponents lone blocker. It should be noted that he also provides tempo by chump-blocking, and can be a 2/2 or 3/3 haste if you have the appropriate haste-giver out.

Yeah, until I tried him out, I had no idea how versatile he was.

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Originally Posted by markbris

is there some trick with stingscourger that I am missing? Can you get around echo with lackey or aether vial? Because in my testing I found him pretty underwhelming as i rarely found myself in a position to use him when i wanted and be able to pay the echo, which left me feeling like it wasn't worth it for a one time shot.

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I agree with this. But it also depends on the kind of deck you are playing. If you play lackeys and Instigators then I would definitely play a few of them. But I will almost always play one no matter what build I'm playing. But like jrsthethird said, you hardly ever pay the echo.

Principal characteristics of Stingscourger are:

- it's a bouncer for every tuff monster except Progenitus
- it's a turn 2 bouncer for the first Goblin Lackey attack
- with Goblin Chieftain is a 3/3 haste bouncer
- in Bant it's a bouncer for a non blue creature for a massive piledriver attack
- with kiki jiki it's a combo bouncer

..it's a bouncer that u can use in a lot of way on the base of your game plan!

Also, tempo advantage if you bounce an early Dryad Arbor! hahaha

Naming a bunch of things a card can do doesn't make it a better card. Tarmogoyf does two things: attack and block, that's it. Yet it's the strongest creature ever printed. Versatility is not what makes something good, it's the ability to seal games or enable you to seal games. Attacking for 2 or 3 is rarely the game decider and even though it's not irrelevant, I'd much rather have a card that actually kills a creature instead of bouncing it: enter Warren Weirding. The ability to kill a creature is much more powerful than to bounce it.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

This topic was talked about before many pages back. This was back when the debate was still going on between Thoctar/KotR, but not quite as far back as Stalin/Trotsky.

The general consensus was that boarding out lackey is a bad idea. There were detractors but there numbers were far fewer. The same consensus was reached in NOT boarding in relic. I'm not saying this is correct now, or even was correct then; however, that is what people had decided back then. Remember to think about that when making your decision.

Personally I agree with the past opinions. If you board out lackey you force yourself (pretty much) to play control, losing a lot of adaptability. Yes, playing the control role is usually the easiest path to victory against zoo, but it isn't as good if you can't flexibly move to the other position as well, especially postboard when zoo can POTENTIALLY bring in some really difficult cards for us (though I don't really see cards like pyroclasm in many lists anymore).

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Hey FoulQ,

My list currently does not run Mogg War Marshalls. I have been contemplating on putting them in but I dont really know what to remove. My 2-drops right now are: 3x Piledriver, 3x Instigator, 3x Stingscougers and 3x Incinerator. Against Zoo, would you suggest boarding out Instigators for MWMs instead?

Also, I would like to add that keeping Zoo away from their 'yard helps. It keeps their KotRs and Goyfs small and Lavamancers suboptimal.

Warren Weirding against Zoo is so and so as Weirding gives your opponent a choice on which creature to sacrifice. To make things worse, there are some builds that actually run Goblin Guides.

If there are a lot of Zoo players with Goblin Guide in your area Incinerator suddenly gains a lot of value (keep in mind his Goblins count too).