Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Ghost588

It was great all day. I cannot wait to test it out more. I'm not sure how much I would like 4 mentors, or what to cut for them. I love having 3 snaps as my meta is very creature heavy. Having terminus and stp is a must.

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My instincts tell me that if you're playing 3-4 Mentors, Terminus is not as important or desirable. An unanswered mentor can glum up the board quite well.

I've been fooling around a little online with a 4 Mentor list, zero Terminus, zero Entreat, okay it's not really Miracles but Countertop Mentors. It's probably not quite right, but I really feel if you're that heavy on the mentor plan, Terminus just gets in the way. Unlike with Entreat, you usually can't just win with Mentor in 1-2 turns.

OTOH, if you're shaving mentors to say 2, I think some Terminus makes a lot more sense, since in that case you're looking to hold off on your mentor until you have control of the game, and Terminus helps establish that.

Am I crazy here?

Hey guys this is a question that I have had recently. With a good number of lands and BGx midrange decks locally I have started running 1 blood moon in the board. Now my question is do I bring blood moon in against delver? I mean it's good when it ends the game when I drop in early but it's obviously gonna be tough to resolve early and if I slam it late then do I really need it since I should be stabilizing in the late game and winning by then anyways? Also I know that blood moon is not worth bringing in vs d&t or goblins just for port but is it worth bringing in against infect since they only play one forest, it shuts off inkmoth and we can kill hierachs?

Also, I've read Phillipp's side boarding articles in the past and read about boarding counterbalance out vs shardless bug but he never really talked about Jund. Although they are similar decks Jace is definitely worse against Jund. So my question is do we board out CB like vs shardless or keep them in and try to overload targets? Also I have noticed people, including myself, playing less/no rip and grave hate overall and I was wondering how much you guys miss stuff like rip or relic vs BGx midrange and lands. Is the matchup basically the same or does it make a huge difference. Sorry if people have seen these same questions posted on this thread as I'm sure these are not uncommon questions but I really wanted to know everyone else's opinions. A final question though, how do you guys feel about the surgical extractions in lossett's current list?

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Originally Posted by ThanhHa

Hey guys this is a question that I have had recently. With a good number of lands and BGx midrange decks locally I have started running 1 blood moon in the board. Now my question is do I bring blood moon in against delver? I mean it's good when it ends the game when I drop in early but it's obviously gonna be tough to resolve early and if I slam it late then do I really need it since I should be stabilizing in the late game and winning by then anyways? Also I know that blood moon is not worth bringing in vs d&t or goblins just for port but is it worth bringing in against infect since they only play one forest, it shuts off inkmoth and we can kill hierachs?

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I think you've answered your own question. I don't see the value having Blood Moon against Delver, except maybe 4-color Delver. Most people would have needle in the SB, and then bring needle in against nexus. I doubt you have both needle and blood moon. Moon shuts down both Nexus and Pendlehaven.

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Originally Posted by ThanhHa

Also, I've read Phillipp's side boarding articles in the past and read about boarding counterbalance out vs shardless bug but he never really talked about Jund. Although they are similar decks Jace is definitely worse against Jund. So my question is do we board out CB like vs shardless or keep them in and try to overload targets? Also I have noticed people, including myself, playing less/no rip and grave hate overall and I was wondering how much you guys miss stuff like rip or relic vs BGx midrange and lands. Is the matchup basically the same or does it make a huge difference. Sorry if people have seen these same questions posted on this thread as I'm sure these are not uncommon questions but I really wanted to know everyone else's opinions. A final question though, how do you guys feel about the surgical extractions in lossett's current list?

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No, the MUs against BGx and lands are different, regardless graveyard hate or not. These MU are just different in the general sense when approaching. BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Jund are all different.

Surgical is a versatile card. You can surgical for value in fair deck MUs, accidentally hurt Storm, and then ok against various graveyard decks. However, it is a frequently misused card.

Don't bring in blood moon against delver. Miracles has no problem locking delver decks out of games. We just need a little help from the SB to make us better at stabilizing against them.

It depends on your list, sometimes you can even leave CB in vs shardless. I usually take them out vs shardless though. Jund is different though. We need CB against them because of punishing fire mostly. Also, they have less ways to dig for answers to CB. Jund (and 4c loam) are the only decks in legacy where I am sad I do not run any GY hate and thats because they have both punishing fire and decays. Vs lands, we can lock them out with meddling mages and CB. Vs reanimator all our coutners, hatebears and CB are good. Vs dredge, we have a positive game 1 matchup vs them we don't really NEED GY hate to beat them.

I think surgical is fine if you use it correctly. I'd sooner play surgical than RIP in miracles.

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Originally Posted by matunos

My instincts tell me that if you're playing 3-4 Mentors, Terminus is not as important or desirable. An unanswered mentor can glum up the board quite well.

I've been fooling around a little online with a 4 Mentor list, zero Terminus, zero Entreat, okay it's not really Miracles but Countertop Mentors. It's probably not quite right, but I really feel if you're that heavy on the mentor plan, Terminus just gets in the way. Unlike with Entreat, you usually can't just win with Mentor in 1-2 turns.

OTOH, if you're shaving mentors to say 2, I think some Terminus makes a lot more sense, since in that case you're looking to hold off on your mentor until you have control of the game, and Terminus helps establish that.

Am I crazy here?

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No. That's pretty much how my games went. in testing i've had to use Terminus once while I had a mentor in play to make the game winnable for me. I still like my list. maybe I will drop down to one Entreat. I don't think I could ever remove it completely. It's so good it so many situations. Also, my meta is totally different so I had to adjust to it :)

I don't see why Joe is not posting this himself, other than the possibility that he's busy.

Anyway, if you're running a Miracle build that MD Red Blast effect, Cliques and Karakas, how do you SB? We know Philipp Schonegger has written like... dozen of articles on SB already, but that's for Ponder Miracles. So how different can they be?

Well, Joe published one this week. Rather than waiting for him on next week, if you're heading into a tournament this weekend, might want to read it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xmsagi7380...acles.pdf?dl=0

Well it's been about a year since I've played Legacy, but just getting back into it again. I see there's some new additions that everyone is running these days (I.e., Dig Through Time, Monastery Mentor, and Cavern of Souls).

Have people given up on Keranos and the Stoneforge package? Also, it looks like JtMS and Entreat have been getting cut :cry:

I'm trying to pick a list to stream on Twitch before making my own tweaks. Any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by princeofperasia

Well it's been about a year since I've played Legacy, but just getting back into it again. I see there's some new additions that everyone is running these days (I.e., Dig Through Time, Monastery Mentor, and Cavern of Souls).

Have people given up on Keranos and the Stoneforge package? Also, it looks like JtMS and Entreat have been getting cut :cry:

I'm trying to pick a list to stream on Twitch before making my own tweaks. Any suggestions?

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Keranos is pretty poor when every1 have access to REB.

SFM isn't really appealing when it get's trumped, hard, by Mentor.

Jace is still played in traditional miracles, just not mentor miracles.

EtA is poor compared to Mentor.

Has anyone done a decent amount of testing with the Mentor build? I've played around 6 or 7 matches on Cockatrice with it. It feels very strange and like it's missing something, but besides my 1-2 loss to BURG Delver. I haven't dropped a game yet with the deck. It is Cockatrice, though.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of other people who have played the deck.

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Originally Posted by Dat_Gentleman

Has anyone done a decent amount of testing with the Mentor build? I've played around 6 or 7 matches on Cockatrice with it. It feels very strange and like it's missing something, but besides my 1-2 loss to BURG Delver. I haven't dropped a game yet with the deck. It is Cockatrice, though.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of other people who have played the deck.

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I've played 12 matches with it - making a change to the deck after the first 6.

I initially started out with almost the same 60 as Claudio Bonnani, except with +1 STP -1 Pyroblast. My sideboard was different because I don't like cards like Blood Moon and so on. The STP/Pyro change is because my local meta is a bit less blue than a GP meta. I would probably go for a 2nd main pyro at a larger tournament, but I like 4 STP too much, so I'd find room elsewhere.

My conclusions were:

1. Mentor is very fun and very strong. 4 is not too many, since it allows us to run one out early to stabilize or force an answer from the opponent. If not answered immediately, mentor is a 3 turn clock at most (2 attack phases is all it needs). It feels a LOT less clunky than Entreat, and dodging flusterstorms and spell pierces is very nice. It does turn on opponent's removal, but you can pretty much always get 1-2 tokens even if they have the answer right then. If you can cast 2 spells you can dodge bolt which is a huge blowout.

2. Daze felt really bad. It was a bit hard to evaluate this card since the ceiling is so high (turn 1 top, turn 2 CB dazing their force is unrecoverable for example), but far too often it was a dead card. A few times it did cute things like save a mentor or a land from wasteland, but ultimately I decided that it is too unreliable (and the name of the game is reliability - this is why we play so many cantrips.)

3. Terminus is just as good as ever, and I missed having the 4th. as much as it may seem a nonbo with mentor, we play 4 mentor and a million shuffle effects, so playing a mentor to force an overextension into terminus is a very valid play.

4. I missed the 3rd snapcaster. I absolutely LOVE snapcaster in the traditional ponder miracles, and would play 4 if there was room (there isn't). I was very conflicted about going down to 2, since snap is essential in making it out of the early game against some of the really aggressive decks. with 3 snaps, it's not uncommon to cast 5-6 STPs in the course of a game. going down to 2 (and 3 STPs) makes this impossible.

5. As powerful as a finisher mentor is, not having any other win condition in the main felt a bit fragile. I missed the mainboard Jace (which cannot be played with Daze, I feel).


So with these conclusions, I decided to cut the dazes and play more of the cards that I missed. I ended up with the following list, that I played to a 3-2-1 finish yesterday (though I really could've done better):

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor

Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Dig Through Time
1 Counterspell
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Pyroblast

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island (should be 3, but I only own 2 atm)
4 Island (should be 3)
1 Plains

Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction (I chose this because 3 snapcasters + free casting goes well with mentor)
1 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pyroblast


I was very happy with the change from the Dazes to this list. 1 Jace main and 1 in the board is nicer than 2 in the board, as having a g1 Jace can be very useful against slower opponents. I also am very very happy to go back to the 3 snapcasters. Having the third snap and the fourth terminus allowed for a more controlling playstyle, similar to pre-mentor miracles, which is where we want to be. The dazes (and the comparative lack of removal) pushed us towards running out our mentors early, which is not what we want to do in my opinion. My matchups for the day (and brief report from what I remember)

M1 - RUG Delver (0-2)

Very close to stabilizing in both games, but too many stifles and mongeese (3 and 2 of each in both games) made it difficult. I did make some mistakes which led into me running into a stifle and a daze that I shouldn't have, so it was definitely sub-optimal play by me that lost me the match

M2 - Grixis Delver (2-0)

This went much better. Game one was control, plowing and terminusing until landing mentor +2 tops. Game 2 was a bit closer since I couldn't find a terminus when he played Young Pyro, so I ended up having to play my mentor to keep his pyro at bay. Luckily he didn't have bolts, but more creatures, so we ended with him having Clique, Flipped Delver, Pyro and 4 tokens to my Mentor +3 tokens. His clique put my top in the bottom but I had 2 brainstorms on top, one of which found me a second top, and I won game 2 after forcing him to chump with all his creatures, followed by an attack for 60+

M3 - Miracles (1-1)

This is, predictably, the match we drew. We were both playing reasonably fast, but the first 2 games went long. Game one started with him playing land and nothing for the first 2 turns, while I played turn 1 top, turn 2 CB. 20 turns later, I landed Jace, then mentor and he scoops. Game 2 happens somewhat similarly to my opponent's advantage, except that he doesn't land the top quite so quickly. Still though, he uses brainstorms aggressively to make his turn 2 counterbalance stop my plays, and plays a turn 4 Jace that I don't recover from. Game 3 again goes long, with my opponent ending up with a Jace and me ending up with a counterbalance but no answer to his Jace. He ticks his jace up to 13 while I frantically dig for some answer. I find a jace of my own at some point and start digging. Just as they call time, I brainstorm into a pyroblast that he cannot answer. The board state as time is called is Him: Top, lands, snapcaster. Me: Jace, top, counterbalance, lands. It definitely was my game in the long run, but we ran out of time.

M4 - BURG Delver (2-0)

2 games go quickly here as my opponent struggles to present early pressure and scoops to CB/Top/Jace game 1, and 2x Mentor with 2x Tops in game 2.


M5 - Grixis Control (2-1)

I don't remember much about this match, but I lost game one after he played Kolaghan's Command, Snapcaster'd it again, then played dig into dig. Game 2 I keep a hand with 2 pyroblasts and I have counterbalance. I play turn 1 top, my plan being to get to 3 lands and play CB with pyro backup. He plays a land and nothing on turn one, so I play my second land and pass. On his turn he mainphase brainstorms, which I pyroblast, and he passes with no land drop. The game gets easy from there on. Game 3 I don't remember, but I win it in the end.


M6 - Omni (1-2)

Finally I get paired against omni; if I win this match I'll make prizes for the day. Game 1 goes fairly quickly after he forces my turn 2 counterbalance and 2 turns later plays a show and tell I can't answer. I had brainstorm + mentor in hand, so CB would've been great. Game 2 is a good game where I keep a hand with Force, Counterspell, Pyroblast and other stuff. At the end of his 4th turn I play a Clique which takes Show and Tell out of his hand and then starts beating. The next few turns I counter 1 intuition and 2 Digs, and he scoops after that. Game 3 I keep a brutal hand: 2x Force, Top, CB, 2x Fetchlands, Ponder, Brainstorm. Unfortunately he plays turn 2 boseiju, turn 3 Show and Tell putting Emrakul directly in. Nothing to do about that play, so I die.

Overall it felt a lot more solid than with the 3 dazes, so I'm really looking forward to trying it more. The sideboard can still be tweaked I think - I'm unsure if I like Canonist or Meddling Mage better - but I think it's the right direction to go. And yes, I like it better than Entreat miracles. I also like that we can go down to 20 lands without really having any problems. Regarding boseiju, someone suggested running a 1-of Dust Bowl in the board, but I think that might be way too narrow.

Anyway, that's my experience with the deck so far, Any comments are appreciated

Nice report. I agree with your assessment of Daze. I find it interesting that though people have been pushing Mentor as a way to finish mirrors faster, you still ended up drawing the MU. Just some food for thought. Though it could be attributed to only have Mentor as your win-con and not Jace, like you said you missed.

From my limited testing, I've found Daze to be pretty necessary without Jace, though I don't think I'd play it alongside Jace. When your curve tops out at 3 (or 4 if you play Mentor + spell or Snap + Counterspell) you really don't miss having the extra mana very much and you want every possible opportunity to protect your Mentor or at least extract value from it.

i've been noticing a trend over the past few months regarding the cards Snapcaster Mage, Dig Through Time, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Miracles.

At first I kept hearing things like "because you're playing Dig Through Time, you're able to reduce the number of Snapcaster Mages. They interfere with your graveyard, less necessary, etc."
Now lately I've been noticing that these people who were playing 2 Snapcaster Mages, 2 Dig Through Time, and 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor are now reversing the numbers and playing 3 Snapcaster Mages and only 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

I've been wondering why this is?

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Originally Posted by drocker23

i've been noticing a trend over the past few months regarding the cards Snapcaster Mage, Dig Through Time, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Miracles.

At first I kept hearing things like "because you're playing Dig Through Time, you're able to reduce the number of Snapcaster Mages. They interfere with your graveyard, less necessary, etc."
Now lately I've been noticing that these people who were playing 2 Snapcaster Mages, 2 Dig Through Time, and 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor are now reversing the numbers and playing 3 Snapcaster Mages and only 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

I've been wondering why this is?

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Ambush Viper beats is a valid strategy.

I would try in miracles 2.0 besides Mentor a second win strategy. Maybe Jace or Entreat. I played against lands with slaughter pact on Mentor....gg

Gesendet von meinem SMART-E4 mit Tapatalk

I may not be a miracles master but the way I see it after playing miracles 2.0 for a few weeks now I feel dazes are poor except for the surprise factor it provides. I feel people also like daze for the "free value" it provides with mentor. Honestly it's like people forget the deck is still a control deck with counterbalance and top first before it's a mentor deck. Still I think the mentor main is really strong in a different way similar to the 4 color goyf counterbalance decks from 4 to 5 years ago but updated with newer cards and better mana. We still play top, CB, and Jace but no entreats, cut the green and replace the goyfs with mentors, and firespout can be replaced with terminus. Essentially miracles with mentor over entreat.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

i've been noticing a trend over the past few months regarding the cards Snapcaster Mage, Dig Through Time, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Miracles.

At first I kept hearing things like "because you're playing Dig Through Time, you're able to reduce the number of Snapcaster Mages. They interfere with your graveyard, less necessary, etc."
Now lately I've been noticing that these people who were playing 2 Snapcaster Mages, 2 Dig Through Time, and 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor are now reversing the numbers and playing 3 Snapcaster Mages and only 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

I've been wondering why this is?

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Because Snapcaster'ing back DTT is awesome. My favorite example was a game in which my opponent was above 10 and had Teeg + Karakas. I won this game by tempo'ing him out with STP as unsummon, which allowed me to Snapcaster back DTTs, which found me more Snapcasters, DTT, and STPs. I would've lost that game if I had less than 3 Snapcaster or less than 2 DTT in my deck.

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Originally Posted by presquepartout

I would've lost that game if I had less than 3 Snapcaster or less than 2 DTT in my deck.

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Neat plays. While i agree with you on 2 Dtt and 3 Snappys being a good number your example is pretty bad. If you had 1 karakas in play you wouldnt have had to waste your swords on teeg to win. Does that mean we have to play a karakas maindeck?
One game isnt siginificant at all! If you play 100+ games with different configurations you could make such an argument.

Edit: Misunderstood your post, even so, your example is worse.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

he there is my report! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...495#post896495 :tongue:

How do people board vs Aggro Loam?

I played vs it at my LGS this week, and realised I haven't thought it through at all until after G1!

Disclaimer: the 'meta' at my LGS is totally bizarre, so Spell Pierce has replaced Pyroblasts in the MD and I've thrown in a Venser to deal with whatever crazy things people are doing. For a larger tournament I'd replace them with 2x Pyro and 1x Ponder.

I did

-2 Jace
-3 Ponder
-1 FoW (probably incorrect?)

Reasoning was Jace dies to P Fire, Ponder dies to CotV and FoW is pretty bad after the first turn or two.

+2 Mentor
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Relic of Prog
+1 EE
+1 CJ

List:

3 Snapcaster
1 Venser

4 SDT

4 CBalance

4 Terminus
2 Entreat
3 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment

4 BStorm
4 FoW
3 STP
2 Spell Pierce
1 DTT
1 Counterspell

2 Jace

3 Tundra
2 Volc
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Island
4 Strand
3 Delta
2 Misty

SB:

2 Mentor
1 Wear//Tear
2 Fluster
3 Pyroblast
1 Relic of Prog
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 EE
3 V Clique
1 Council's Judgment

This one MU I have a lot of experience against as one of my good play testing friends plays this.

On the draw you want 3 FoW in case they ramp into an early Chalice or Library. On the play you still keep the FoWs in, but just 2.

I personally keep in at least 1 Jace because bouncing problematic stuff is fun and useful, and plusing him can get stuff done. V Clique should be brought in for sure. Postboard we need to really go on the aggro because they eventually have more things than we can deal with.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

This one MU I have a lot of experience against as one of my good play testing friends plays this.

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I've played Aggro Loam a lot myself, so I know the deck well enough. I've just not been this side of the matchup before.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I personally keep in at least 1 Jace because bouncing problematic stuff is fun and useful, and plusing him can get stuff done. V Clique should be brought in for sure. Postboard we need to really go on the aggro because they eventually have more things than we can deal with.

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V Clique just dies to Punishing Fire, as does Jace, though that's a much more reasonable inclusion post-board. I realise their strong points, but they have a pretty big weakness too, 'fun and useful' isn't a very compelling argument. I'm happier to keep both Jaces in if I had Surgical Extraction in the SB, but as it stands there are too many circumstances where Jace just bounces a Bob/KotR and then dies to a P Fire.

In my head the gameplan was simply survive until I can play a big entreat or get Mentor going (which is what happened, G1 won at 1 life with a big entreat, G2 got mentor going)

I played Mentor Miracles (stock GP Lille list, except moving a Jace into the main and the 2nd Pyroblast into the SB) at my local Legacy FNM last night. We had 22~ players, and ended up playing 5 rounds.

2-0 vs. Grixis Pyromancer
2-0 vs. BGW Nic Fit
2-0 vs. UG Infect
1-1-1 vs. Esper Control (Mentor, Gitaxian Probe/Cabal Therapy, Baleful Strix, etc.)
2-0 vs. Elves

Against my round 4 Esper Control opponent, I lost a close game 2 that came down to us both in top deck mode, and with only a few minutes left on the clock we decided to just ID rather than shuffle up for game 3.

I ended up in first place, and won a booster box for my efforts. Not bad for a casual FNM $10 buy-in.

The deck is, frankly stated, absurdly powerful. Mentor is the ideal finisher for this deck, and there were several instances where I was able to chain two SDTs for a combo-esque quick finish. I like that it can be deployed at any point of the game, and forces your opponent to deal with it immediately. Even a single Monk token ends up being a legitimate threat. I much prefer the Mentor build over other iterations that rely on Entreat the Angels or Jace. For any UWr Miracles player on the fence about Mentor, try it out! I think you will really like it.

I have a monthly tournament coming up next weekend and intend to run the deck again. I might make a few sideboard and main deck tweaks, but overall the deck runs smoothly and doesn't need much changed. In particular, I am not completely sold on Daze in this deck. I am sure there are instances where it is absolutely nuts here, but I never really had the opportunity to see that happen and generally sided it out. I suppose it would be better against combo decks, which I didn't really end up facing. I also think that this deck might want another copy of StP/Terminus and/or Snapcaster Mage.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I played Mentor Miracles (stock GP Lille list, except moving a Jace into the main and the 2nd Pyroblast into the SB) at my local Legacy FNM last night. We had 22~ players, and ended up playing 5 rounds.

I have a monthly tournament coming up next weekend and intend to run the deck again. I might make a few sideboard and main deck tweaks, but overall the deck runs smoothly and doesn't need much changed. In particular, I am not completely sold on Daze in this deck. I am sure there are instances where it is absolutely nuts here, but I never really had the opportunity to see that happen and generally sided it out. I suppose it would be better against combo decks, which I didn't really end up facing. I also think that this deck might want another copy of StP/Terminus and/or Snapcaster Mage.

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22 Players for a Legacy FNM! Wow that's amazing.

If you can figure a way to not run Daze, I might just follow your lead and make the switch.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

22 Players for a Legacy FNM! Wow that's amazing.

If you can figure a way to not run Daze, I might just follow your lead and make the switch.

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http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17676&iddeck=133129

This deck doesnt run daze and won 1st in a 100 man event.

Actually, observing Claudio's top 8 matches from GP Lille illustrate how effective Daze can be. I think I'll just continue to run it for the time being.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Actually, observing Claudio's top 8 matches from GP Lille illustrate how effective Daze can be. I think I'll just continue to run it for the time being.

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If we talk about specific card choices (like Daze), we should put it into context and provide arguments. In my opinion (not a very experienced one) Daze main point is to increase the early game strength of the deck. Paying mana limits the amount of interaction in the first (sometimes crucial) turns. E.g. the combo match up or stopping huge bombs like an CB from the opponent. Besides stopping bombs, it allows to tap out early and not being reduced to FoW as interaction. This weakens the late-game equally, which is what people are complaining about, but this deck still has a decent late-game strength compared to most other decks. Positive side-effect are the better curve for CB and the mind game even if you don't have it.

Daze is great in early game but, imho Mentor alone is not great in the long term.

I play 2 Vendilion and 1 Entreat alongside 2/3 Mentors.

The first drop I like is still Clique. Jace is just too weak against Pierce, Reb and Needle...

Jace is still the perfect drop against Maverick and Abzan but there were 0 in the top 16 for a reason..

Hi to all,
I've recently picked up Bonanni's Monastery Miracle (never played any kind of miracle before) and did well at 2 locals. At the third, however, I found myself losing horribly to burn (even deploying counterlock in the first 3 turns both games) and Omniscence.

Particullary, Burn won thanks to eidilion (both games), and Omniscence thanks to Boseju (which my opponent played both games within the third turn, plays 2 maindeck).

My list is the same as Claudio's (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17543&iddeck=132029), with the following differences in the side due mainly to local metagame:
-1 Jace, -1 Red elemental blast
+1 blood moon, +1 sudden shock

Do you have some advices for the aformentioned matchups?

Against Burn you really need to plan out those CB "blind" flips with Ponder and such. Burn often has draws that are hard to beat, and if you're losing to Eidolon despite having CounterTop out by Turn 3, you're doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

Hi to all,
I've recently picked up Bonanni's Monastery Miracle (never played any kind of miracle before) and did well at 2 locals. At the third, however, I found myself losing horribly to burn (even deploying counterlock in the first 3 turns both games) and Omniscence.

Particullary, Burn won thanks to eidilion (both games), and Omniscence thanks to Boseju (which my opponent played both games within the third turn, plays 2 maindeck).

My list is the same as Claudio's (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17543&iddeck=132029), with the following differences in the side due mainly to local metagame:
-1 Jace, -1 Red elemental blast
+1 blood moon, +1 sudden shock

Do you have some advices for the aformentioned matchups?

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1. Take reference from Lossett's SB guide. https://www.dropbox.com/s/xmsagi7380...acles.pdf?dl=0

2. I can be totally off, but here's how I approach them. Against Burn, try to get to a board state where you can float 2 and 6 via CB, with multiple SDT in play. After that, use hard counter on the 3. Against Omni-tell, try to find Canonist and Red Blast, just hold them in your hand with Red Mana open. If you cannot reach that before they cast show and tell, sometimes you can stop the first one by just Clique-ing away a Wish or a Dig with Show and Tell on stack, uncounterable or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Against Omni-tell, try to find Canonist and Red Blast, just hold them in your hand with Red Mana open. If you cannot reach that before they cast show and tell, sometimes you can stop the first one by just Clique-ing away a Wish or a Dig with Show and Tell on stack, uncounterable or not.

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Pretty much.

Boseiju is a problem, but not game over at all. It just means you have to fight on an unfavourable axis (they have infinite mana). Clique, Flusterstorm and Counterbalance are your best tools for this. But I've not played the Mentor version yet, only a fairly stock Ponder build with three Cliques in the SB.

Vs Burn you need Counter-Top plan and mass removal like Pyroclasm.
Don't side out all the Terminus because they remove Eidolon without damage.
Fetch for basics lands and counter Sulfuric Vortex.

Vs Omnitell the Counter-Top plan is good.
Bosejiu are hard but the matchup is balanced imho.
Sideboarding hard vs Omnitell with V-Clique, Blast, Flusterstorm.
If you leave a card with cc 3 and 8 on top (Mentor and DTT) with Counterbalance, the way for your opponent is not easy.

vs Omnitell it's quite a run to find Blood Moon or Boseiju for them.

The first one to find it tipically wins.

We play 4 Rebs, CounterTop, 4 FoWs and Snapmage, 3 Meddling Mage and 3 Canonist.

Without Boseiju they tipically don't resolve SnT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

vs Omnitell it's quite a run to find Blood Moon or Boseiju for them.

The first one to find it tipically wins.

We play 4 Rebs, CounterTop, 4 FoWs and Snapmage, 3 Meddling Mage and 3 Canonist.

Without Boseiju they tipically don't resolve SnT

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:confused:

Do people really board in Blood Moon!? Boseiju is beatable, I'd prefer to have all the cards in my deck do something. If you have the time to tap out for Blood Moon vs Omni, well...we've been playing against a different deck.

3 MM and 3 Canonist isn't normal at all. If you do, more power to you. That's what's probably winning the Omni matchup, not Blood Moon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dissection

:confused:

Do people really board in Blood Moon!? Boseiju is beatable, I'd prefer to have all the cards in my deck do something. If you have the time to tap out for Blood Moon vs Omni, well...we've been playing against a different deck.

3 MM and 3 Canonist isn't normal at all. If you do, more power to you. That's what's probably winning the Omni matchup, not Blood Moon.

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No, no1 actually boards Blood Moon versus Omnitell.

It's much easier to fight it after SnT resolves, ie. Drop MM on Dig/Wish or Canonist and then go for destroy Omniscience.

so, you let resolve a blind SnT?

If they drop soemthing strange (like a Iona on white) or Emrakul, what do we do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

so, you let resolve a blind SnT?

If they drop soemthing strange (like a Iona on white) or Emrakul, what do we do?

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Yes, I let them drop SnT if they have boseiju, as it's retarded to board Blood Moon vs them.