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In general, I don't find force spike to be that adequate in MUC considering it's a deck that does not have early game aggressiveness. Now if this deck had some sort of clock then perhaps you could force your opponent to run into a force spike. Making force spike a more productive spell then previously. However, I am not saying you should change this deck on how it plays though.
The lack of early game aggressiveness is usually the reason people play Force Spike.Quote:
In general, I don't find force spike to be that adequate in MUC considering it's a deck that does not have early game aggressiveness.
that's why i like CotV instead of 4x Force Spike
Wtflolbbqmaobrbwtbidk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I can understand not liking force spike, but did you ponder the retardedness of that statement before typing it?
"I prefer to run something that generally costs two or more mana instead of something that costs one and does something against my opponent's turn one plays, besides zero cc spells."
Honestly, appreciation for force spike is largely based on what approach to the archetype you prefer. Just accept it.
Besides, didn't you post a list a few pages back that pretty much asserted that you have a less than adequate grasp of either approaches to the archetype...chrome moxes and so forth? Hopefully I am mixing people up.
Okay, I definitely am not. You also suggested meekstone(!!). I am not trying to come acorss as attacking you, personally or anything, but I am definitely questioning your grasp of muc.
I'll repeat this again too: if you are looking for a deck that speeds out chalices and plays chrome moxes, check out tomb aggro.
we're talking about the aggressiveness in the early game? CotV is my choice for that.
Getting attacked by a Lackey putting Ringleader into play the turn after you just cast a Chalice of the Void for 1 makes up for what lack in aggresiveness?
I still didn't see you reply to that (or any other related remark that was sent your way on the subject). Until you do (or change your mind), you can't expect to convince anyone that CotV has any kind of business in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewisIf you want to play Chalices, then you more than need some acceleration, otherwise you'll look quite sad when you'll try playing your Chalice @ 2 by... turn four.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Hence, being mono-blue, I don't think you have a lot of choices except for Moxes. Or City/Tomb.
Does that mean you should play them in MUC ? I certainly wouldn't, for the large number of reasons already discussed. 4 Moxes aren't going to be enough to make your Chalices the least bit reliable (ie : not crap most of the time). You need more accel for that. Hence, City/Tombs. But now, the list still isn't optimal at all, because you have all that consistent accel that the Chalices required to not suck (and sure, now they definitely don't), but you're not doing much with it other than that (not to mention that those 2-mana lands do have their share of suckyness if not actively abused by the decklist). So how can you further take advantage of the TEMPO (you know, MUC being the antithesis of a tempo deck. hint, hint) you're gaining by having so much more mana than your opponent so early ? Certainly not by playing Shackles a turn earlier (well, with only one island in play, they would suck anyway). So ? Well, you play threats, of course ! Hmmm... aren't we just slowly morphing into Faerie Stompy ? Why, yes, we are : )
Don't get me wrong, FS is not a bad deck in any sense... it's simply a (totally) different one. Seriously, FS is a very fine deck. If you want to play Chalices in a blue shell, all chances are it's the best way to do so and you probably should pick the deck up. But in MUC... well, not so much. At all.
I think the mox/chalice/meekstone thing is why I honestly don't trust or take any of his insight remotely seriously.
okay, I'll just let the CotV thing for what it is... 'cause playing a chalice on the 2nd turn, giving the opponent the chance to play at least one 1CC spell and tapping out just doesn't sound to good.
About force spike in MUC; force spike is great in the early game and useful in mid and late game. Force spike in mid and late game, asuming you have B2B out, forces your opponents to choose whether to have their spell countered or to tap one of their non-basics. In a lot of situations they don't even have mana left to pay for force spike.
Even a turn one draw-go will leave your opponent wondering whether you have a spike in hand or not. If your opponent chooses to play around force spike, he's working towards your, favorable, late-game.
That is pretty much how I feel about force spike, but some people haven't played it enough or at all or something like that. It isn't for every deck, but it is so good fo draw-go. Disrupt is another favorite...counter a duress/hymn/thoughseize and cantrip? Yes please.
Something worth pointing out though is that the draw-go strategy's strength is also it's flaw in that it tries to make a huge part of the opponent's deck dead by running nothing, but draw, counters and land basically. I am not sure if that really works too well with dtb anymore.
I dusted off draw-go and tried it out and it wasn't great. I managed to outplay a few opponents because they didn't really no what I was playing in the first game and then in the second game they didn't really know how to play against me that well(lack of practice most likely). They should have won the games, but they didn't. A key example is playing spells a turn later and saving discard etc. Maybe they just outright sucked.
I think if I was going to actually hit a tournamnt, I would go with a permanent-based muc, even though I love draw-go because I like winning more.
oh don't get me wrong! I'm a permanent MUC player by heart. I even played the kira/sower version (which I really can recommend). But the first turns are for every type of MUC the same... just draw, play land, go... So what I meant with ' draw-go' in my previous post is mainly the first turn.
Definitely; the big difference between the two strategies is that permanent-based muc can recover easily against early plays an opponent makes with propaganda and EE(if you run such a build) as well as the stuff draw-go(ie stack based?) builds run aswell. Which is probably why some people are shitting bricks at the mention of force spike being good in the archetype.
To the force spike critics:Force Spike is a very poor card to use in permanent-based muc.
Just based off of what I see on forums, legacy is very permanent-based right now and obviously blowing up the board and taxing attacks is a lot more affective in most metagames than trying to counter the worst threats and mitigate the effects of ones that hit the table by stealing or blowing them up when they get too dangerous. I still think a really well-tuned stack-based build could do okay, every game would just be needlessly more difficult than if you were to simply run permanent muc. At least that's what I think.
my view on it all is that, in no way, you can counter everything. People know that and can play spells they WANT to have countered so their big threats can come through (in a stack-orientated build). My meta consists of a lot of aggro-control decks like thresh and the like. Decks that run cards like mongoose which you really want to counter cause they're hard to deal with late game (in the 2nd and 3rd game a keg is gonna be gripped). I'm not saying thresh is a difficult matchup, but a mongoose can be a bitch.
I usually play against a lot of experienced players who know they don't need to play their goyf and that a mongoose will do fine. They'll keep their counters and krosan grip for your kegs/EE/Disk.
So I'd like to have a counterspell like FS in my opening hand, so I can counter that early mongoose without using a FoW.
But maybe the use of Force Spike is meta-related or it depends on personal style... I, for one, like it...
Agreed. But for the most part MUC has plenty of early game tools to push it towards the late gameQuote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
I actually run spell snare in the same slot for obvious reasons.
Spell snare is good for being on the draw, but it does absolutely nothing against first turn duress, mongoose, top and so forth. Spellsnare is without a doubt a better card overall, no argument there, but it does the job just as well on a two mana spell on the second turn and does absolutely nothing on the first turn one mana spells, like a mongoose.
It looks like the only real threat people are concerned about having a first turn counter is Nimble Mongoose. Between Propaganda, Powder Keg, and blocking with your own creature, I don't see any reason to run Force Spike, as it will be 4 cards in your deck that you want in your opening hand each time. I'd rather bank on Force of Will and Foil as my turn 0 and 1 counters than run a card that will only minorly affect the late game.
I have some questions for the Mono U players:
I´m a really newbaye to the Legacy format.
My meta looks like this:
http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/Fórum/tabid/5...s/Default.aspx
http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/Fórum/tabid/5...s/Default.aspx
http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/Fórum/tabid/5...s/Default.aspx
http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/Fórum/tabid/5...s/Default.aspx
http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/Fórum/tabid/5...s/Default.aspx
Can be the Mono U archetype the right way to choose? I´d like to play it.
Obviously circa 20-30 players on tourney, I would like to do TOP8.
Which is the right way to play this deck against the main strategies?
Can someone explain it to me, please?
What is the right starting point for my meta?
Can it looks like this? ( http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20392 )
or this looks interesting http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19840
Thanks for all your ideas and suggestions:wink:
Probably the standard build that you list first. Personally, I have little experience spending very much mana during my own turn while playing a mono blue, so maybe someone more familiar with the Sower/Spinner builds can fill you in, but if I am going to spend mana during my turn, I want it to be a bomb that saves/heavily protects my ass now. I don't want to be casting a creature that just insures that whatever creature I steal next turn for four mana won't be easy to take back. The deck also runs too few lands for my taste.
You and a friend should make a gauntlet a tune a deck accordingly. Though whether you go with draw-go, stack or sower/spinner, you need to have a really good understanding of how most of those deck work and what spells need to be countered and win. I don't think that muc is necessarily a good choice for a deck to start out with in a format you aren't terribly familiar with.
You've read the primer I assume?
I've played both variants of MUC and I can say that they'll both run well. But you will have to side a lot of anti-red... cards like chill, BEB en hydroblast.
You play against a lot of decks that have nice creatures for you to take over :wink: So a sower/spinner could do well. But I do think you have to have some sort of experience in magic and your meta to truly know how to play MUC.
I see a lot of decks with a least three colors so a B2B should be a cool card to play with. Like Mordel suggested; run a gauntlet with a friend and learn how to play with both builds.
Hi,
my actual list looks so:
Lands(22)
10 Islands
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
CQ+CA(11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Jace Beleren
2 Fact or Fiction
Permission(13)
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Cryptic Command
Removal(7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enginneered Explosives
Other(5)
3 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shalkes
Killoption(2)
1 Morphling
1 Decree of Justice
Sb
4 Hydroblast
4 Relic of Protegenius
4 Propaganda
2 Echoing Truth
1 Back to Basics
I´m not happy about the Sb and a bit about DoJ,
i would love it to play a additional killoption and 1 more Fact or Ficiton. What do u say?
Meta
http://trader-online.de/turniere/siegerdecks.htm
becomes more and more Zoo and Sligh